Just starting to look......

[Rob-M]

Was there a problem with width at one time with some Liverpool boats...?

[cuthound]

35 minutes ago, Rob-M said:

Was there a problem with width at one time with some Liverpool boats...?

I think some were banana shaped, so no single point across the boat was too wide but along its length it could be.

[Tawny75]

Hello again.  I am still making all these notes from the vast experience that is on this forum

I have seen this boat on Apollo Duck http://narrowboats.apolloduck.co.uk/boat.phtml?id=530449, I have emailed the seller asking how old it is, when was it last blacked, has the hull ever been surveyed etc.  Should I ask anything else?

 

 

 

[Rob-M]

8 hours ago, Tawny75 said:

Hello again.  I am still making all these notes from the vast experience that is on this forum

I have seen this boat on Apollo Duck http://narrowboats.apolloduck.co.uk/boat.phtml?id=530449, I have emailed the seller asking how old it is, when was it last blacked, has the hull ever been surveyed etc.  Should I ask anything else?

 

 

 

They don't give much away do they. What about number of berths, number of batteries, is it 12v, 24v, any 240v. What is included in the sale.

[Athy]

9 minutes ago, Rob-M said:

They don't give much away do they. What about number of berths, number of batteries, is it 12v, 24v, any 240v. What is included in the sale.

At least we know that it has a great toilet! Tawny, it does say that it was built in 1999, by Cruise Craft, of whom I have never heard. Looks pleasant enough inside, good galley, hard to tell what the outside is like from that photo. At least we know that it has a fixed double berth.

(I wonder if "Cruise Craft" should have read "ColeCraft"? If so, a reliable builder. If not, who knows?)

Edit: is that astroturf on the rear deck? Oh dear.

[Lysander]

I didn't know there was a Leighton Buzzard in Herefordshire...

Sadly, clicking on the map link didn't work.

[Tawny75]

2 hours ago, Athy said:

At least we know that it has a great toilet! Tawny, it does say that it was built in 1999, by Cruise Craft, of whom I have never heard. Looks pleasant enough inside, good galley, hard to tell what the outside is like from that photo. At least we know that it has a fixed double berth.

(I wonder if "Cruise Craft" should have read "ColeCraft"? If so, a reliable builder. If not, who knows?)

Edit: is that astroturf on the rear deck? Oh dear.

Yes, it does appear to be astroturf.  Wrong on 17 levels, but easily removable!

1 hour ago, Lysander said:

I didn't know there was a Leighton Buzzard in Herefordshire...

Sadly, clicking on the map link didn't work.

I saw that too, I am hoping it is near me as Herefordshire is a little way away....

 

 

[LEO]

8 hours ago, Tawny75 said:

 

 

 

Hi,

It looks as though the boat was built in 1989, not 1999. Really you need a lot more info before making a decision.

Good luck.

Mike.

[Athy]

3 hours ago, LEO said:

Hi,

It looks as though the boat was built in 1989, not 1999. Really you need a lot more info before making a decision.

Good luck.

Mike.

Sorry, my mistake, 1989 it was. So it is approaching 30 years old.

[Tawny75]

The owner has come back and said that the boat was built in 1989, and was surveyed and blacked in 2014.

Considering it will need to be blacked, I am thinking 30k is a lot for a 28 year old boat.....

[LEO]

 The AD advert is really poor - no real information, Leighton Buzzard is just up the road from TOwl, so it's possibly worth making a visit, but with a boat of this age I would be very wary.

7 minutes ago, Tawny75 said:

The owner has come back and said that the boat was built in 1989, and was surveyed and blacked in 2014.

Considering it will need to be blacked, I am thinking 30k is a lot for a 28 year old boat.....

You think right! - worth going along for a look. if only to gain experience. Keep looking at lots of boats - you will 'know' when you see the 'right' one.

Edited August 2, 2017 by LEO

[Mick in Bangkok]

I will be boat hunting in the next year or so this just a very interesting thread to follow so thanks to Tawny for starting it and to all the form members for their comments.

Can I ask for a couple of clarifications?

 

What is an ideal plate thickness and how do you interoperate 6/6/4 ?

Also from window shopping I am leaning towards a trad stern but also like the look of the small seats, I think referred to as suicide seats. I have seen it posted that these are dangerous for a helmsman to use due to being swept overboard if the rudder jams in the mud, are they entirely useless underway and only for when moored up? What is the common thought on these seats?

 Cheers Mick

[Athy]

There's no ideal plate thickness, only ideal steel condition. Boats with thinner steel may be in excellent nick, boats with thicker steel may have rusting, pitting or even holes.

6/6/4 would mean that the hull is 6 mm thick, the sides are also 6mm thick and the roof is 4mm thick. The roof is usually of thinner steel to prevent the boat being top-heavy and unstable.

My thoughts about those seats is that they didn't gain the tag "suicide seats" for nothing. When steering, you should always be forward of the tiller's arc. If you're sitting on one of those while steering, you won't be.

[Rob-M]

As Athy said.

I would never use a rear seat whilst the boat is moving as there is always the risk the tiller will be suddenly swept round or you may have to make a sudden hard over movement with the tiller.  Often you see a couple boating along, steerer happily stood in front of the tiller arc and somebody else sat relaxing on a rear seat.  If something jammed in the rudder or the steerer had to hard over to avoid a collision then their passenger may suddenly be in the canal and a high possibility they will be pulled through the propeller.  There were seats on our boat when we purchased it but I had them removed.

[Athy]

22 minutes ago, Rob-M said:

As Athy said.

I would never use a rear seat whilst the boat is moving as there is always the risk the tiller will be suddenly swept round 

....as happened about four years ago in a lock above Cropredy, when the rudder hit the cill, the tiller was indeed swept round violently, and the lady who was standing within its arc was knocked overboard and killed. So it's not just what "might" happen, it's what sometimes does.

[MtB]

3 hours ago, Mick in Bangkok said:

 

What is an ideal plate thickness and how do you interoperate 6/6/4 ?

 

I'd interpret that as a 6mm baseplate (uncomfortably thin), 6mm hull sides (about right) and 4mm cabin sides and roof.

It is generally expected that a run-of-the-mill, reasonably well built boat will be 10/6/4 or perhaps 10/8/4. Boats older than about 25 years are likely to have been built 8/6/4. It's exceeding rare to find a boat with a 6mm baseplate and those that have, tend to be 30+ years old before the 'standard' baseplate thickness of 10mm was arrived at.

Baseplates wear and go rusty, which is why 10mm is the norm these days. So there is still some meat in the plate after a lot of use and corrosion. Surveyors have a whizzy thing to measure metal thickness. I'm wondering if your 6/6/4 boat actually started life as 8/6/4 or 10/6/4 and the claimed 6mm baseplate thickness is actually what the surveyor measured it at, rather than the original build thickness.

There are a few hull builders using 12mm for the baseplate now, or even 15mm. 10mm is fine though in my opinion. 

[Athy]

7 minutes ago, Mike the Boilerman said:

 

. Surveyors have a whizzy thing to measure metal thickness.

Could you stop baffling us with all this technical jargon, please?

As Mike says, very few (if any) modern narrowboats are built with a 6mm base plate these days. But in the 1970s and 1980s it was common, especially in shorter boats. Our first n/b, built 1989 and not a Springer, was 6/5/3. I think that Springer's standard spec. was 5/5/3, though they would build with thicker plate if the customer specified it and paid more.

[manxmike]

I have a 1989 Liverpool Hull with a Lister SR2 engine in a Trad layout. Apart from the awkward entry to the boat I have found it to be excellent. The survey showed the hull to be in excellent condition, the engine plods away happily (apart from an engine mount that persists in loosening itself off). The stove (at the front) is an old Heron and is almost too efficient. The alternator happily charges up the three leisure batteries and the engine battery, providing power for everything for about three days before I have to re-start the engine. The fridge is gas powered, as is the water heater and cooker, a gas bottle will last a good fortnight with constant use.

Don't write off budget boats, there are some cracking deals out there. OK, at the moment it's a sellers market so prices will be high, four years ago it was the other way round and prices were much lower. Keep looking, the right boat for you is out there. I took six months or more to find Cobweb.

[MtB]

12 minutes ago, manxmike said:

I have a 1989 Liverpool Hull with a Lister SR2 engine in a Trad layout. Apart from the awkward entry to the boat I have found it to be excellent. The survey showed the hull to be in excellent condition, the engine plods away happily (apart from an engine mount that persists in loosening itself off). The stove (at the front) is an old Heron and is almost too efficient. The alternator happily charges up the three leisure batteries and the engine battery, providing power for everything for about three days before I have to re-start the engine. The fridge is gas powered, as is the water heater and cooker, a gas bottle will last a good fortnight with constant use.

Don't write off budget boats, there are some cracking deals out there. OK, at the moment it's a sellers market so prices will be high, four years ago it was the other way round and prices were much lower. Keep looking, the right boat for you is out there. I took six months or more to find Cobweb.

 

I'd second this. People get terribly hung up about the steel thickness and corrosion on old cheap boats. Even if some survey or other shows 4mm pits in an 8mm baseplate on a 30 year old boat, that's still 4mm of steel left and it took 30 years to get down to that. 4mm is PLENTY thick enough to keep the water out and that's all you need. And an unfashionable-looking hull style is just as much a delight to cruise around in as a £100k Hudson.

Gas fridges are another thing that scares people away and knocks massive chunks off the saleability (and therefore price) of an old boat. A gas fridge properly maintained is no problem at all.

Or rather, gas fridges can turn into a problem and a pretty big problem if not maintained, which IS the problem, if you get what I mean. But they fine if you take them out periodically and clean out the chimney tube and pilot light assembly. It's the people who never bother who put themselves at risk. Maintaining a gas fridge is just part of regular boating. Those who can't do it shouldn't have one. Gas fridge that is... 

[Nightwatch]

2 hours ago, Athy said:

....as happened about four years ago in a lock above Cropredy, when the rudder hit the cill, the tiller was indeed swept round violently, and the lady who was standing within its arc was knocked overboard and killed. So it's not just what "might" happen, it's what sometimes does.

A very sad incident. Holiday boat with family onboard. She was, I believe going up hill and put the boat astern, the tiller did indeed sweep her overboard with the prop still turning. Horrible in every respect.

My apologies for being potentially pedantic. 

On 19/06/2017 at 14:18, Dave Payne said:

Here is a search for trad boats on Apollo ducks...

 

http://narrowboats.apolloduck.co.uk/listings.phtml?view=1&layout=1&cid=71&fx=GBP&minv=28000&maxv=35000&minl=1432.56&maxl=1584.96&ymin=&ymax=&type=1&sort=4&limit=50

 

You should get something better than the one in your link for the money you have, maybe keep a bit back though and aim for 30k.

The second boat on this list seems a very nice boat. It may have been discussed through the thread but I'm feeling a bit lazy today.

[Athy]

Just now, Nightwatch said:

A very sad incident. Holiday boat with family onboard. She was, I believe going up hill and put the boat astern, the tiller did indeed sweep her overboard with the prop still turning. Horrible in every respect.

My apologies for being potentially pedantic. 

I see no pedantry there - not that I'm an expert in such matters, of course.

I heard that she was killed when her head violently hit the lock wall, rather than by the prop. But the result, most regrettably, was the same.

[Nightwatch]

On 19/06/2017 at 14:18, Dave Payne said:

 

On 19/06/2017 at 14:18, Dave Payne said:

 

On 19/06/2017 at 14:18, Dave Payne said:

 

On 19/06/2017 at 14:18, Dave Payne said:

 

On 19/06/2017 at 14:18, Dave Payne said:

On 19/06/2017 at 14:18, Dave Payne said:

 

Edited August 3, 2017 by Nightwatch
Coz I'm a numpty. Quoted Dave more times than I needed to.

[Nightwatch]

11 minutes ago, Athy said:

I see no pedantry there - not that I'm an expert in such matters, of course.

I heard that she was killed when her head violently hit the lock wall, rather than by the prop. But the result, most regrettably, was the same.

Mike, you're right, and then entered to water with the prop turning. 50/50 seems a reasonable result.

[MtB]

I was there when it happened, following her along the cut. She went into the lock, the gates closed and I moored up to wait. After three or four minutes a chap came running down from the lock and said "you can't go through the lock, there's a dead body in there".

I could hardly reconcile this as I'd just seen her boat go in, so I asked the chap what he meant. He said "there is a woman in the lock with half her head missing. There is no doubt she is dead. She is still stuck under the boat."

Horrifying.

As a result of what this chap said I'm of the view she was killed by being sucked under the boat with the engine in astern, rather than hitting her head on the way in.

[Athy]

I had not realised that you had virtually seen it happen, Mike.

I went only on what I heard locally (possibly from Gregg Klaes, can't remember), but I am happy (if that's the right word under these circumstances) to be corrected.