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EA v CRT


Midnight

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Been on the Thames for the first time and cannot believe the impressive state of the infrastructure. Lock gates that can easily be opened even with a pole, every paddle working on the stretch I did. Lock keepers etc.

Speaking to some lockies there seems to be a concern that sometime soon CRT will take over the EA navigation and reduce the quality to current CRT standards - and put them out of a job. Me thinks maybe the EA should take over CRT and bring the system up to EA standards.

Anyone got any thoughts?

Edited by Midnight
speeeling & grammar
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The Thames is more complicated than fist meets the eye.

Yes, the locks are massive (when compared with most canals) and they do work easily. Downstream of Oxford they are all electric and are pretty reliable (provided that the boater does a RTFM (read the instructions) The locks are manned (nowadays as far as funds allow) as a by-product of 'controlling river levels'

All the above comes at considerable cost and being a government department there are stricter rules to be applied internally than there would be for a public / private concern.

There are many 'issues' to be faced for CRT, costs, staff (if any) how to provide flood control, river levels and so on. 

If I were CRT I'd run a mile. It's a money pit...

Just for starters

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Apples and Oranges: a lot of the CRT operation is concerned with entirely artifical watercourses whereas the EA is dealing with natural, but improved, ones.  The Thames especially is a relatively heavily used waterway so has high income relative to the cost of the structures necessary for navigation - so more staff can be employed.  Compare to, say, the Rochdale where there is low useage and a far higher cost of structures for navigation... 

 

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The Thames is a very different animal to the canals, not least because it's a big river which means much of it has to have large locks with automatic gates. Then there's the need for flood control; modern technology can tell someone in a control room what's happening, and give them some degree of remote control, but it still makes sense to have people on the spot for various reasons, as indeed CRT do in some locations.

EA seem to me to do a pretty good job on the Thames, but I can think of a couple of things that irritate me a bit.

At many locks, when there isn't a lock keeper on duty the electrics are set to limit how far the paddles open, because quite rightly EA take the view that many of the occasional leisure boaters they get would otherwise have accidents. But you have to allow plenty of time if you're going to use Culham lock out of hours, because that has a special painfully slow setting; it takes about 20 minutes to fill the lock.

The pricing of licences is rather weird, for example if you want to do the transit between the K&A and Oxford canals you either buy a week and take your time, or you get out onto the river early morning, buy a one day licence at the first manned lock, actually giving you the day you buy it plus the next day, and get a move on so as to be off the river at Reading/Oxford in time to find a mooring for the night. This is very do-able in spring or summer when there's enough daylight, but it does mean two long days of boating, so wouldn't be to everyone's taste.

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1 hour ago, Peter X said:

The Thames is a very different animal to the canals, not least because it's a big river which means much of it has to have large locks with automatic gates. Then there's the need for flood control; modern technology can tell someone in a control room what's happening, and give them some degree of remote control, but it still makes sense to have people on the spot for various reasons, as indeed CRT do in some locations.

EA seem to me to do a pretty good job on the Thames, but I can think of a couple of things that irritate me a bit.

At many locks, when there isn't a lock keeper on duty the electrics are set to limit how far the paddles open, because quite rightly EA take the view that many of the occasional leisure boaters they get would otherwise have accidents. But you have to allow plenty of time if you're going to use Culham lock out of hours, because that has a special painfully slow setting; it takes about 20 minutes to fill the lock.

The pricing of licences is rather weird, for example if you want to do the transit between the K&A and Oxford canals you either buy a week and take your time, or you get out onto the river early morning, buy a one day licence at the first manned lock, actually giving you the day you buy it plus the next day, and get a move on so as to be off the river at Reading/Oxford in time to find a mooring for the night. This is very do-able in spring or summer when there's enough daylight, but it does mean two long days of boating, so wouldn't be to everyone's taste.

Fortunately for boaters none of the weirs - which are the main way of level and flood control - are automated. Some have electric motor control over individual gates. Many do not and you have to be very fit to wind them. these weirs have to be pulled in a certain order. Fortunately this antiquated equipment means that a resident lockie is required. You can't send a man in a van if the access road is flooded...

Although the locks are slower when on public access - observation showed that if left to their own devices many boaters would sink their boats. IMO EA went for a one size fits all approach to the automation of the smaller locks and that concept doesn't work for Culham - resulting in the 20 minute fill issue. That is due to the first 'pull' which has to be short because the sluices (paddles) are all in the gate, and even a gentle pull throws boats around. The irritation is that the final pull takes ten minutes with very little water coming in (apparently). 

I believe EA have little opportunity to change the licensing 'model' - something to do with changing a Statute set in stone via the TCAs.

 

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Perhaps the age and historic status of the structures may have a little to do with the comparison. The Thames locks are fairly modern, well designed and solidly built, which they have to be on a river.  The canal locks are often none of these.   Surely a better EA/CRT comparison should be with the Severn or Trent locks.

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1 hour ago, NBDensie said:

Perhaps the age and historic status of the structures may have a little to do with the comparison. The Thames locks are fairly modern, well designed and solidly built, which they have to be on a river.  The canal locks are often none of these.   Surely a better EA/CRT comparison should be with the Severn or Trent locks.

Methinks it's more complicated than you would think.

There are fewer Severn and Trent locks than on the Thames. True they are operated for you, but strictly 9-5 and stop for lunch - and you can't operate them yourself. Much more traffic on the Thames.

The real difference is that the Thames has a high profile and many more small craft using it.

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The Nene is lightly used and the general condition of the structure it is way above the crap that CaRT expect us to deal with.

I have boats on both waters and having moved the one on the GU yesterday for the first time in a year I am appalled at how the GU  deteriorated, its soon goung to be like it was in the 70s unless CaRT pull their finger out and do some maintainance.

I am dreading CaRT taking over EA navigations as within a few years they will be unnavigable........

That for me is a complete chage of stance six years ago I was allfor the takeover before I realised ho crap CaRT would be.

Edited by Loddon
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The big plus to having the Thames is having London at the end of it.

London CANNOT be flooded so everything else on the river is designed to protect London. Taking the staff away who pull the wier boards upstream because you need to pay the Chuggers company  at Braunston festival would be the kind of catastrophic mistake that CRT would be prone to make.

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1 hour ago, Loddon said:

The Nene is lightly used and the general condition of the structure it is way above the crap that CaRT expect us to deal with.

I have boats on both waters and having moved the one on the GU yesterday for the first time in a year I am appalled at how the GU  deteriorated, its soon goung to be like it was in the 70s unless CaRT pull their finger out and do some maintainance.

I am dreading CaRT taking over EA navigations as within a few years they will be unnavigable........

That for me is a complete chage of stance six years ago I was allfor the takeover before I realised ho crap CaRT would be.

We did the Nene for the first time a year ago.  Whilst we enjoyed it and will be back, the EA is not exactly big on facilities for boaters, like overnight moorings and water/rubbish/elsan.  So I don't think all is perfect with the EA managed waterways.

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31 minutes ago, john6767 said:

We did the Nene for the first time a year ago.  Whilst we enjoyed it and will be back, the EA is not exactly big on facilities for boaters, like overnight moorings and water/rubbish/elsan.  So I don't think all is perfect with the EA managed waterways.

There are plenty of moorings just not signposted as such. Long may it remain that way. Water/rubbish/elsan you may have to use a marina for and put your hand in your pocket........ 

Its not the same as a canal which is its beauty.

Edited by Loddon
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4 minutes ago, Loddon said:

There are plenty of moorings just not signposted as such. Long may it remain that way. Water/rubbish/elsan you may have to use a marina for and put your hand in your pocket........ 

Its not the same as a canal which is its beauty.

The point is you have handed over a wedge of cash to the EA, and you don't get much back for it.  Compared with ANT for example.  I think the EA could do a lot better, don't know if CRT would do a better job of course.

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Never found any problem with disposal point for rubbish or water points on the Thames. My beef would be about the overhanging trees and even trees growing in the water above Oxford. Oh and the lack of dredging.  

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I hand over far more to CaRT and get SFA in return, no water to boat in,  extra charges for mooring to my own land, I could go on but wont.

Off for a day out on the Nene tomorrow , it will be beautiful, may even see another moving boat, saw 4 the weekend before last a record ;)

Edited by Loddon
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IMO the CaRT don't actually won't you to move your boat. The whole system is biased towards 'commercial' operations and on line moorings. I have yet to pass a lock on the Calder & Kebble with all its paddles and gates working properly. Weir booms broken, secret facilities at Horbury Bridge for the long term residents etc etc.

 

It might be an own goal but I'm off to EA waters.

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On ‎16‎/‎06‎/‎2017 at 22:48, sueb said:

IWA are campaigning for CRT to take over EA waters. It has been their aim for years and it looks as though it may happen. It will be a disaster

That's what those EA employees I met fear. I was told navigation on rivers like the Thames is enshrined in Magna Carta which is something 'private' canals aren't subject to. I believe if CaRT take over EA navigations it will be the system will decline for boating.

CaRT have been a big disappointment to many if not most boaters. The management in my experience of dealing with various officers is pretty abysmal and those silly money wasting schemes whilst the system falls apart doesn't bode well for the future. CaRT seems to be becoming a 'leisure' organisation whilst the EA has at least a dedicated navigation arm.

Assuming at some stage government will try to save money by amalgamating CaRT with the EA navigations my vote will be for the EA. Couldn't be any worse - could it?

 

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10 hours ago, Midnight said:

That's what those EA employees I met fear. I was told navigation on rivers like the Thames is enshrined in Magna Carta which is something 'private' canals aren't subject to. I believe if CaRT take over EA navigations it will be the system will decline for boating.

CaRT have been a big disappointment to many if not most boaters. The management in my experience of dealing with various officers is pretty abysmal and those silly money wasting schemes whilst the system falls apart doesn't bode well for the future. CaRT seems to be becoming a 'leisure' organisation whilst the EA has at least a dedicated navigation arm.

Assuming at some stage government will try to save money by amalgamating CaRT with the EA navigations my vote will be for the EA. Couldn't be any worse - could it?

 

I have been boating since 1973. Back then the canals were in a much worse condition than now. Under BW they steadily improved, reaching a peak in the early to mid 1990's.

Since then they have worsened, as the government of the day reduced funding.

However, since CRT has access to external funding, and for the time being the government's contribution is ring fenced,  there are now signs of things stabilising.

In the meantime the EA's funding is still, and for the foreseeable future will continue to be cut.

Unless the EA gets secure access to external funding their future looks bleaker than CRT's.

Ideadly I would like to see the canals return to being properly funded under public ownership, like in the 1990's,  but in the current economic and political climate that just ain't going to happen.

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14 minutes ago, WotEver said:

An oxymoron, surely. 

True nowadays, but in the 1990's there was enough money to reopen the K&A after years of neglect, dredge most of the canals and maintain or repair all locks is good working order quicky (no leaks or broken paddles left for months or years to repair).

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