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monkeyhanger

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It makes me laugh when people attack the metric system by saying they prefer 'English' measurements. Do you buy fuel for your boat in groats? No - thought not.

At school I learned both systems but when I joined the Army at the age of 15 in 1962 (Junior Leaders Regiment Royal Engineers) at Shorncliffe I soon found that about the only thing that was not metricated was our pay. I have used metric measurements ever since, and when someone mentions a measurement in imperial I have to do a mental calculation to appreciate its value. I fervently wish that we would adopt the metric system in its entirety - the mish-mash of both is a nonsense, as NASA found out to their cost; they have to contract out almost everything they do to private companies and on one of their Mars probes the navigation programming was contracted to one company but the entry and descent programming to another. Nobody noticed that one had worked in miles and the other in kilometers; several million dollars worth of space probe, having travelled for nine months through space to arrive at Mars was switched by mission control from its space navigation program to the atmospheric entry and descent program, and was just thinking to itself 'Right - time to deploy my parachute' when it slammed into the Martian surface at something like 17,000 kilometres per hour! (Thats 10,563.31 miles per hour for those of you with a nostalgic disposition!)

I'm pretty certain that a lot of the opposition to the metric system is basically an expression of low-level xenophobia which is ironic because it was pretty much invented by an Englishman; John Wilkins, the first Secretary of the Royal Society, set out the principles in 1668. In true English fashion the powers that be looked at it, said, 'hmm - very interesting' and did nothing about it. It then languished for some 150 years before being utilised by the French during the revolution. But then we're good at that; we developed a very good all-round weapon for the Army made entirely of fibre and then gave the patents to the Americans for a song. Only a couple of years later we had to pay through the nose to buy the weapons from the Yanks for our special forces, who thought the Armalite a very fine piece of kit. And don't forget the swing-wing jet, an invention of Barnes Wallace who was laughed out of the door by the Air Ministry when he showed them the concept. Someone remind me how much we pay the Americans for those jet fighters for the RAF - a figure of £35 million each springs to mind?

Moral - don't disparage your own countries inventions; the resulting egg-on-face can be expensive...

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On ‎09‎/‎06‎/‎2017 at 21:09, Mike the Boilerman said:

 

£100/1.2 = £83.33

Therefore the ex VAT sale was £83.33 and the VAT was £17.67, pennies rounded. 

 

 

 

Edit to remove the duplicate worms.

Indeed.

If you use £sd you don't need to round.

Paradoxically, using a decimal system means that when the gross is a nice round number, 20% VAT is not.

On ‎09‎/‎06‎/‎2017 at 21:16, Jerra said:

Is there something wrong with my memory or my maths?

12 pence in a Shilling means that 4d =0.33 (recurring) of a Shilling

3d would be 0.25 Shillings

Quite right - my bad!

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On ‎09‎/‎06‎/‎2017 at 21:20, WotEver said:

Your memory is better than Dave's :)

So... you decimalise it in order to calculate 20%...

nuff said. 

:-)

Of course I do!

I plead that whilst I have the mental agility to calculate even without the crutch of everything being multiples of 10, I have no real world experience of having to do so.

I was born around the time of the moon landings, so pre-decimal currency was gone before I became aware of money.

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On 09/06/2017 at 20:39, Jerra said:

Why on earth would anybody want to ask for such a silly measure surely it would be a half Litre or even a Litre (for those who found the walk to the bar so often too strenuous).

Colloquially people would probably just start asking for "a half".

It may be (probably is) what I'm used to but a Pint feels "right". A half-litre and when I finish I'm looking at the glass wondering if someone had a swig when I wasn't looking. A litre and I end up not finishing (unless we're in for a "session"). A Pint in a canalside pub while the lock empties or fills just seems "right".

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7 hours ago, Carrera said:

It makes me laugh when people attack the metric system by saying they prefer 'English' measurements. Do you buy fuel for your boat in groats? No - thought not.

At school I learned both systems but when I joined the Army at the age of 15 in 1962 (Junior Leaders Regiment Royal Engineers) at Shorncliffe I soon found that about the only thing that was not metricated was our pay. I have used metric measurements ever since, and when someone mentions a measurement in imperial I have to do a mental calculation to appreciate its value. I fervently wish that we would adopt the metric system in its entirety - the mish-mash of both is a nonsense, as NASA found out to their cost; they have to contract out almost everything they do to private companies and on one of their Mars probes the navigation programming was contracted to one company but the entry and descent programming to another. Nobody noticed that one had worked in miles and the other in kilometers; several million dollars worth of space probe, having travelled for nine months through space to arrive at Mars was switched by mission control from its space navigation program to the atmospheric entry and descent program, and was just thinking to itself 'Right - time to deploy my parachute' when it slammed into the Martian surface at something like 17,000 kilometres per hour! (Thats 10,563.31 miles per hour for those of you with a nostalgic disposition!)

I'm pretty certain that a lot of the opposition to the metric system is basically an expression of low-level xenophobia which is ironic because it was pretty much invented by an Englishman; John Wilkins, the first Secretary of the Royal Society, set out the principles in 1668. In true English fashion the powers that be looked at it, said, 'hmm - very interesting' and did nothing about it. It then languished for some 150 years before being utilised by the French during the revolution. But then we're good at that; we developed a very good all-round weapon for the Army made entirely of fibre and then gave the patents to the Americans for a song. Only a couple of years later we had to pay through the nose to buy the weapons from the Yanks for our special forces, who thought the Armalite a very fine piece of kit. And don't forget the swing-wing jet, an invention of Barnes Wallace who was laughed out of the door by the Air Ministry when he showed them the concept. Someone remind me how much we pay the Americans for those jet fighters for the RAF - a figure of £35 million each springs to mind?

Moral - don't disparage your own countries inventions; the resulting egg-on-face can be expensive...

Meanwhile I will still sell my beer in pints and halves a hard won case against the eu for us full of nostalgia. Oops must hurry to work its a 30 MPH speed limit all the way ;)

Edited by mrsmelly
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We went decimal/metric in 1971.

Almost 2 generations ago, now go out to buy a purely metric retractable tape measure!

I have a tool catalogue of that era, which lists metric only tapes, try finding one now. 

Strangly, one I have is modern American, both in manufacture, and sale. 

 

Bod

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On ‎09‎/‎06‎/‎2017 at 19:13, David Mack said:

And do you remember when exercise books always had those tables of conversions on the back cover, including rods, poles and perches?

Yes, I had those when I was at junior school. I think the back cover of the exercise books stated tersely "The metric system is used throughout Europe" but didn't go on to tell us what it was.

When I got my first train set about 1957 it was stated to be "4mm to the foot" scale. I have never known why the first measurement was expressed in foreign (as it then was).

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On 09/06/2017 at 20:56, mayalld said:

OK, and breaking it down into steps that can be easily done in the head

First convert to Shillings;

£17 x 20 = 340s

4d = 0.25s

so, our starting amount is 353.25s

10% of that is 35.325

20% is 70.650

extract the pounds (3) leaves 10.65s

so we have £3 10s with 0.65s to account for

.65 x 10 = 6.5

.65 x 2 = 1.3

so 0.65s = 7.8d

You didn't specify what the smallest unit of account is, but as VAT always rounds up, it matters not whether halfpennies and Farthings are still in play, this is 8d

£3 10s 8d

 

Odd - It wouldn't occur to me to convert to a single unit: -

VAT on one Pound = four Shillings; exactly

VAT on one Shilling = 2.4 Pennies, rounded up. so One Shilling -> 3 Pennies, two Shillings -> five Pennies, three Shillings -> eight Pennies, four Shillings -> ten Pennies

Multiple of five Shillings the VAT is a Shilling (exactly)

So for £17 13s 4d

£17, the VAT is 17 x 4 = 68 shillings = £3 8s

13 shillings = ( 2 x 5) + 3, the VAT is 2 shillings and 8d

4 d, VAT is less than a penny

£3  8s  0d + £0 2s 8d ==> £3 10s 8d

I guess if I was doing it every day then the "68s = £3 8s" would become automatic

 

1 hour ago, Bod said:

We went decimal/metric in 1971.

Bod

I remained convinced for several years that my parents had swizzled me when my pocket money went from 6d to 5p in 1971!

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I am struggling to understand why so many people seem insistant that imperial is bad and outdated, and that we should only use metric. They are two different means of measurement, both with a long history, and whilst I accept that the almost universal Metric measurement is appropriate as the standard in the UK,  I can see no reason why they cannot continue to be deployed side by side, where appropriate.

Many things in everyday use are still made to Imperial dimensions, primarily because to change would cause enormous disruption, for example house doors and garden fencing panels are still made to their traditional imperial sizes, even metric house bricks, which are slightly smaller than the Standard Imperial brick are compatible with Imperial Bricks.

Also if, like me, you are interested in older mechanical items made in the UK they will almost certainly have Imperial components, particularly when it comes to screw threads. In my workshop I have BSW, BSF, BA, BSB, BSP, UNC, UNF and some Cyclo Taps and Dies. I recently gave my large left handed BSF taps and dies to a friend who restores traction engines etc, but all the others have been pressed into use at various times.

 

 

Edited by David Schweizer
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3 hours ago, 1st ade said:

It may be (probably is) what I'm used to but a Pint feels "right". A half-litre and when I finish I'm looking at the glass wondering if someone had a swig when I wasn't looking. A litre and I end up not finishing (unless we're in for a "session"). A Pint in a canalside pub while the lock empties or fills just seems "right".

Wasn't it Orwell's 1984 wherein a chap in a pub said something along the lines of "I hate the new metric system. A half litre isn't enough and a litre's too much". 

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1 minute ago, WotEver said:

I think you mean 2 2/5 pennies. 

I stand corrected by my learned colleague...

But it goes to show different people understand different things by metric / imperial: -

  • The derivation of the unit (a standard piece of metal somewhere v something linked back to atomic standards)
  • The multiples for different quantities; Multiples of 10 v 12 inches / foot, 20 shillings the £, 16 Oz the Lb, 1760 Yds the mile
  • Whether you use fractions or decimals to express partial measures
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On 11/06/2017 at 11:38, WotEver said:

Wasn't it Orwell's 1984 wherein a chap in a pub said something along the lines of "I hate the new metric system. A half litre isn't enough and a litre's too much". 

 

Its worse than that.

As 1st ade said earlier one pint lockside is just right. If its a really great pint, then a second is perfect too. None of the metric combinations would ever be quite as good..

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12 minutes ago, 1st ade said:

I stand corrected by my learned colleague...

But it goes to show different people understand different things by metric / imperial: -

  • The derivation of the unit (a standard piece of metal somewhere v something linked back to atomic standards)
  • The multiples for different quantities; Multiples of 10 v 12 inches / foot, 20 shillings the £, 16 Oz the Lb, 1760 Yds the mile
  • Whether you use fractions or decimals to express partial measures

Probably not helped by the 1971 move to metrication of the currency being called "Decimilisation". 

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2 hours ago, WotEver said:

Wasn't it Orwell's 1984 wherein a chap in a pub said something along the lines of "I hate the new metric system. A half litre isn't enough and a litre's too much". 

From memory, "Half a litre don't satisfy". Just back from France where I carried out extensive experiments in this area, I can confirm that it don't, but that multiples of it does.

 

Especially when followed by half a bottle of Buzet (or as near to half as I can get before Mrs. Athy snaffles the remainder of the bottle).

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But go back a bit more half farthing, farthing, half penny, penny. Each twice the value of the one before it

3d 6d shilling, two shillings again twice the value of the one before it

Half Crown, crown, ten bob and pound.

£5 £10 £20

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1 hour ago, ditchcrawler said:

But go back a bit more half farthing, farthing, half penny, penny. Each twice the value of the one before it

3d 6d shilling, two shillings again twice the value of the one before it

Half Crown, crown, ten bob and pound.

£5 £10 £20

I remember an Andy Capp cartoon:

Pigeon seller: 30 bob each or two for three pound ten. 

Andy: I'll take the two!

Next frame: Andy with an exclamation point over his head. 

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On 9 June 2017 at 19:24, Mike the Boilerman said:

 

Ok then, I challenge you to work out the 20% VAT to charge on, say, a sale of £17 13s 4d in your head using mental arithmetic. 

Such calcs are easy with metric money.  

Bit unfair really, VAT wasn't introduced until 1973, we went decimal in 1971. Hang on, are you suggesting we only went decimal so we could be charged VAT?

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Just now, Bewildered said:

Bit unfair really, VAT wasn't introduced until 1973, we went decimal in 1971. Hang on, are you suggesting we only went decimal so we could be charged VAT?

Before VAT we had purchase tax on items, but from memory not on services, and from memory there were different rates, sometimes for the same sort of thing.  The example I remember was domestic step ladders were taxed at a high rate until a certain number of steps was exceeded upon which it became industrial which had a lower tax rate.  People must have calculated purchase tax on sales.

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aliens arriving on Earth and discovering our counting system would be shocked by our ridiculous decimal system.

humans counted their fingers and came up with 10, divisible by 1,2 & 5, and never progressed beyond that.

any bright mathematician or engineer will favour the duodecimal system with base 12, divisible by 1,2,3,4 & 6.

is it too late to change?

Edited by Murflynn
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