dawncraft 25 advice needed

[bob gray]

• I need some expert advice.  3 years ago I bought a Dawncraft 25.  I had it trailered to my home. The boat had 2 oak " fins" underneath, and the boat was trailered 120 miles sitting on them instead of the rollers on the trailer. On launching her, leaks appeared from nearly every bolt. I ended up removing the wood and angle grinding the bolts off flush with the  hull. I've glassed over the whole length of each fin, and was nearly ready to relaunch. I've now been told that steering in anything but a flat calm will be next to impossible. Do I have to replace the fins ?  the boat will only ever be used on canals . Any advice would be very welcome. Thanks. Bob.

[Dave Payne]

Sounds dodgy advice to me, tbh i would have thought if you tried to launch into a canal with fins they would bottom the boat?

[Peter X]

These two fins would probably have been just a few inches across, running along the hull one each side of the boat, so not adding much to the depth? I'd imagine any such fins make a boat less inclined to roll, but whether they're important (a) on the calm water of a typical canal and (b) where there's a bit more flow, around locks and on rivers, is not for me to say. It needs someone with experience of how similar boats handle.

[David Mack]

Those keels were fitted to your boat for a reason.

When my parents had a 20 ft fibreglass cruiser my Dad fitted twin wooden keels to the bottom - about 6 inches deep as I recall. They made all the difference to steering in any sort of crosswind. Before they were fitted boating in exposed places was difficult - I particularly remember the boat being blown all over the place while trying to hover between locks at Knowle - holding to the towpath here not being practical due to the layout of the old narrow locks.

I think that having found the leaks you would have been better removing and refitting the keels with new sealant between the keel and boat bottom and around the bolts.

 

 

[magpie patrick]

I suspect they will help keep the boat steady and steering in a straight line in cross winds and when at low revs or in neutral, but I don't know, I've never tried the same model of boat with and without fins

However if the boat is ready to float without further work on it why not launch and try it? The best that can happen is it floats and is generally fine, the worst is you have to take it out again and put the fins back

[X Alan W]

IIRC a similar type boat owned by my uncle handled much better in terms of steeriing & not slipping sideways after he fitted 2 keels to the bottom; again IIRC they were aprox 5"x 2", 2" to hull some 10ft in length & were positioned equal between centre line & chines in the OP's case he has the size & position As said try if boat is ready, but I think OP will find better handling with them refitted. a case of try & see.

[Phil Ambrose]

These fins are what I know as skegs and as has been said their purpose is to stop the boat slipping sideways in the water, so replacing them will make the boat handle better.

Phil 

[BilgePump]

Many moons ago we had a Dawncraft 25. These 'fins' were fitted as standard when built and I'll bet that yours aren't the first to fail. For those readers who are imagining some kind of bilge keels a la sailing boats, they're not, these are much narrower but longer, kind of like large chine runners but lower down the hull. If they've already been removed and glassed over then I would go with the suggestion of launching and seeing.  If you are going to wait to fabricate and fit new ones before putting the boat back in the water you will probably lose a good chunk of what's left of this season. 

I remember us once being unable to move our Dawncraft for three days tied up on the towpath in Cheshire due to very strong winds. In that instance the wooden fins still couldn't counteract the force of the wind and any attempts at steering were pretty futile. Fins being present does not make these craft perfect in bad weather and conversely I imagine that not having them will not make the boat wholly unsteerable, maybe a bit more skittish, more susceptible to sideways blows but still manageable in most conditions you will encounter on the canal. If you find the steering too vague then at least you have the satisfaction of knowing what you can do in the future to improve the situation.

 

[zenataomm]

Back in the early 80s I had a second hand Dawncraft 30 centre cockpit with BMC 1500/Enfield Z Outdrive

I'd had it about a year when I noticed a knocking sound in the hull when I went into reverse.

Being aware of the twin wooden lengths running underneath I jumped to the conclusion one of them had come loose at the back and was flapping about in the wake when in reverse.

So I phoned up Dawncraft, which it seems were in the process of  closing down, and finally got handed to some old boy who knew what he was talking about and prepared to discuss it with me. He didn't ridicule my question about could it be one of the keels coming loose, but correctly identified it as being the locking bar on the Z Drive not engaging and the leg climbing up out of the water until it lost grip and then thudding against the transom when it dropped back in again when it tried to chew air.

Anyway, upon learning that this might have been the last chance to talk to someone wearing a Dawncraft cap, I pressed him for information, and one of the questions I asked was the reason for fitting these dual wooden keels.

He advised me that if I got to the point of the underwater keels degenerating then I should also look at the wooden rubbing strakes as they would be probably be in a worse state due to the abuse they got and the fact they were screwed through the hull side.  He was right, they looked fine but were loosening.  There was one that crossed the waterline and as soon as I started exploring it commenced to weep.

A lift out was needed and some professional coats of looking at were called for.

[BilgePump]

2 hours ago, zenataomm said:

Anyway, upon learning that this might have been the last chance to talk to someone wearing a Dawncraft cap, I pressed him for information, and one of the questions I asked was the reason for fitting these dual wooden keels.

He advised me that if I got to the point of the underwater keels degenerating then I should also look at the wooden rubbing strakes as they would be probably be in a worse state due to the abuse they got and the fact they were screwed through the hull side.  He was right, they looked fine but were loosening.  There was one that crossed the waterline and as soon as I started exploring it commenced to weep.

A lift out was needed and some professional coats of looking at were called for.

^^^ This is so true. Ours sank on the slipway, overnight, after a relaunch, after 'professional' work. New rubbing strakes, lowest not fully sealed = boat going down. Dawncraft 25s are great boats, you get loads of room for your buck, but do treat the first days after putting back in water like a concerned parent

[M-S-D]

Now wondering what we will find when ours comes out of the water. Not leaking currently though so that is something. Fins eh.

[Jim Riley]

I had a dc22, bought as a

 project. Rubbing strakes had been put on with decorators caulk! Nearly sank!

I fitted new bilge keels to mine, used the recycled plastic wood planks , about 6 x 1.5 inch. For longevity. 

The keels allow the boat to sit down flat on the bottom or hard standing. Probably improve handling a little, make it less twitchy to steer.

A bit of ballast in the bow etc can help, though in the end I took it out and learned to steer!

Always fancied a Highbridge, but got a small Narrow Boat instead because it was getting harder to climb on and off the DC with the high gunnels. Great boats.

Edited June 3, 2017 by Jim Riley

[bob gray]

Hi, To the 11 of you who replied to my request, a heartfelt Thankyou. Opinions seem to be split almost down the middle, as to whether to  fit or not to fit. So, bearing in mind that I have no idea how to go about fitting replacements, i'm going to do what several of you suggested... suck it and see. So i'll leave them off, and see what happens upon the relaunch. I'll let you know what happens, and Thanks once again. 

[zenataomm]

On ‎01‎/‎06‎/‎2017 at 17:51, zenataomm said:

Back in the early 80s I had a second hand Dawncraft 30 centre cockpit with BMC 1500/Enfield Z Outdrive

I'd had it about a year when I noticed a knocking sound in the hull when I went into reverse.

Being aware of the twin wooden lengths running underneath ..................

Having just re-read my post above, I've just noticed that in the act of posting it has lost a complete paragraph!!??

Namely the answer the Dawncraft Chappy gave me for them fitting these dual underwater fins in the first place.

The original idea was to protect the underneath of the boat in shallow water, as well as when out of the water.  The added bonus of aiding steering was welcomed as they were high sided and floated like a ping pong ball on the surface of the water.  The slightest puff of wind could result in you admiring the view in the direction of where you'd just come from. Slowly manoeuvring towards an open lock was fraught with hilarity for everyone watching with many an amateur book maker opening up shop lock side and offering very poor odds upon a seamless transaction.

When they started building longer boats and those with inboard engines or large heavy outboards it occurred to them that relying merely upon the tensile pathetic-ness  of GRP alone was a tad foolhardy.  Consequently the underwater beams added a brace against twisting, much in the same way a kelson inside a n.b. does.  Around this time the cost of resin had risen 100% so a couple of lengths of wood were cheaper than increasing the thickness of the hull bottom.

If you want to check this out put your bent elbow against the side of a GRP boat and push gently and see how much it flexes.  Now imagine if the bottom of the boat were the same how would you like something sharper than your elbow getting in the way of your moving hull?

No need to panic though, for like an aircraft wing you want some flexibility or it would be brittle and snap very easily. 

As somebody said earlier in this thread, they were put there for a reason.

Dock every couple of years and give it a couple of coats of looking at.

Edited June 4, 2017 by zenataomm
keelson/kelson

[WotEver]

48 minutes ago, bob gray said:

Opinions seem to be split almost down the middle, as to whether to  fit or not to fit.

Interesting observation. My reading of the thread was that it fell very strongly into the 'put them back' camp. 

[Alan de Enfield]

51 minutes ago, bob gray said:

I'll let you know what happens

If we hear nothing shall we assume that you crashed and are unable to post ?

[M-S-D]

On 03/06/2017 at 09:42, Jim Riley said:

I had a dc22, bought as a

 project. Rubbing strakes had been put on with decorators caulk! Nearly sank!

I fitted new bilge keels to mine, used the recycled plastic wood planks , about 6 x 1.5 inch. For longevity. 

The keels allow the boat to sit down flat on the bottom or hard standing. Probably improve handling a little, make it less twitchy to steer.

A bit of ballast in the bow etc can help, though in the end I took it out and learned to steer!

Always fancied a Highbridge, but got a small Narrow Boat instead because it was getting harder to climb on and off the DC with the high gunnels. Great boats.

Hope to hear back from Bob.

Jim, are you able to share a little more about fitting new ones?

The bolts, were they already visible inside or did you have to "dig" to locate them?

[Jim Riley]

Not knowing any better I used screws and polyurethane squidge* and screwed them on from the outside. After filling all the old screw holes with chemical metal. This hadn't been done before, hence nearly sinking! Now I know it would have been possible to bolt them through accessing the bolts through backs of cupboards etc. 

But mine were still on solid when I sold her.

* Polyurethane squidge is far superior to silicone for this, it sticks like baby effluent to a blanket and is over paintable. You may already know this, or not.

Edited June 13, 2017 by Jim Riley
Boots? No, Bolts!

[W+T]

I was going to fit Bilge Keels to my boat from Poly  foam and laminate them in place. No drill into the hull and then no chance of leaks.

 

Just a matter of getting a few 75-100 mm boards and cutting to shape and stickig them on with resin or sealant then laminate over with CSM or combo matt.

[Jim Riley]

Another reason why Dawncraft have keels is so they can sit down flat on the bottom, rather than leaning over on the chines. I used to moor it in a short pound, levels went up and down for fun, one night the mooring faerie put 4 Paving flags on the bed of the cut so the boat was flat and level when there was no water in the pound.

[Bee]

Probably leaked because the wood dried out and shrank. It is something to be careful of with the Dawncraft and probably others as well. It you refit the keels it could be better to bolt through the keels, through the glass hull amd then through a substantial pad on the inside with lots of proper sealant. It might seep a bit if you are unlucky but it won't sink.

 

[bob gray]

Greetings to all those of you who took the time to answer my original query about refitting the skegs under my Dawncraft 25. Thank you all. having spent a lot of time trying to make my mind up which way to go, I finally ended up at one end the bar in my local. There I met a learned old character who had spent most of his working life building and repairing boats of all sorts. He was familiar with the Dawncraft fleet, and finally made my mind up with 2 bits of very good advice. "If you replace like for like, you could well get them ripped off, or worse, on a Tesco trolley. Or get stuck on the step in a lock." He assured me that both were very good fun. Plus the final gem, "If it's blowing a gale, you won't be going anywhere anyway. No one will . Try the 4 P's theory. Pub, Pint, Pie, Papers " Nuff said. On the 18th of August, she was craned delicately into the Thames, and I can report that Beau Nydle  goes wherever she's put, and is as dry as a bone, which is great considering all the fibreglass mat and resin it took to seal up the bolt holes.. The other terrible thing I've done is to scrap the lower rubbing strip. It was rotting and too near the water line for comfort. Fenders have been lowered and a couple more fitted each side. I'm not going to church to pray for forgiveness. It looks a darned sight better without the strips on. Once again my thanks to all. Happy zigzagging.

Edited August 27, 2017 by bob gray
added info.

[magpie patrick]

Thanks Bob, I think the only thing i can really add is may you now have much happy boating!