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4LW for sale


Joe Bourke

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A lot in the Winchester Marine auction at Manby near Louth in Lincolnshire. Described as ex MOD and unused. I thought it may be of interest to someone with a suitable boat. It is an online auction, 25th May. Viewing by appointment 22-24 May.

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Lordy Lord.

Realistically rather too powerful for n/b use (though I have seen one, and indeed also a 5LW, in a narrowboat) but perhaps perfect for someone's new widebeam?

I am, though, unsure if you're allowed by put one in a new boat unless it's a "replica" of an old boat, because of how much they emit. Fat narrowboats would probably not qualify. but Dutch Barge imitations might.

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16 hours ago, Athy said:

Lordy Lord.

Realistically rather too powerful for n/b use (though I have seen one, and indeed also a 5LW, in a narrowboat) but perhaps perfect for someone's new widebeam?

I am, though, unsure if you're allowed by put one in a new boat unless it's a "replica" of an old boat, because of how much they emit. Fat narrowboats would probably not qualify. but Dutch Barge imitations might.

Interesting point about engine emissions. Who is there though to stop the installation of any engine that might contravene emission regulations? Who enforces these rules on pleasure boats particularly. The BSS doesn't cover engine emissions does it ? I've never heard of a pleasure boat being pulled up about a suspect engine, or told to remove one. There may be RCD stuff about emissions, but what about owner fit outs of new boats? Who decides what is a replica, or a vintage vessel? My own boat has a Gardner 6LW20, should I worry that someone might turn up and tell me to remove it as it doesn't comply in their eyes to some arbitrary standard? 

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Joe, you ask some very good questions there (as people say when they can't answer them).

I assume that your boat is not brand new; these regulations, which I believe came in from January this year, are not retrospective. But, for example, Beta has withdrawn their Tug JD3 from the market because it doesn't meet the new rules: goodbye to the last "affordable" new-build trad style engine. You can still buy a new RN but at £16,000 they are not within everyone's budget.

I have never heard of anyone in an official peaked cap snuffling round and telling a boat owner to change his engine or risk a fine. Has anyone else?

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4 hours ago, Athy said:

Joe, you ask some very good questions there (as people say when they can't answer them).

I assume that your boat is not brand new; these regulations, which I believe came in from January this year, are not retrospective. But, for example, Beta has withdrawn their Tug JD3 from the market because it doesn't meet the new rules: goodbye to the last "affordable" new-build trad style engine. You can still buy a new RN but at £16,000 they are not within everyone's budget.

I have never heard of anyone in an official peaked cap snuffling round and telling a boat owner to change his engine or risk a fine. Has anyone else?

Where did you read that it was regulations that caused Beta to withdraw the JD3? They can be smokey in a narrowboat but the DF150 version is an emissions compliant engine when sold by John Deere.

I had suspected that it was because poor old Steve Hudson was by far their biggest customer and now that everybody wants an ultra modern fugly boat there is just no market for the JD3.

I am not 100% clear about if an engine needs to be retested in its final marinised format.

...........Dave

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12 minutes ago, dmr said:

Where did you read that it was regulations that caused Beta to withdraw the JD3? They can be smokey in a narrowboat but the DF150 version is an emissions compliant engine when sold by John Deere.

I had suspected that it was because poor old Steve Hudson was by far their biggest customer and now that everybody wants an ultra modern fugly boat there is just no market for the JD3.

 

Either on here or in one of the monthly boatimags, and within the last two or three weeks. Whoever wrote it seemed to know what they were talking about.

By the same token, where did you read that Steve Hudson was the biggest customer for JD3s? From observation, if his customers wanted something traditional to power their boat he more often installed a Lister JP.

Have you any evidence that there's no market (or rather, would be no market if you could still get a new one) for the JD3? I would have thought quite the contrary: as the only reasonably-priced brand new narrowboat engine with a traditional look (even if it sounds as if it will plough the fields rather than ploughing along the cut) its appeal would be broad. The alternatives are an RN (expensive) or a rebuilt old engine (nearly as expensive, and one never quite knows what's under the glistening new paint).

Do you believe that everyone wants "ultra-modern fugly boats"?

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18 hours ago, Athy said:

Joe, you ask some very good questions there (as people say when they can't answer them).

I assume that your boat is not brand new; these regulations, which I believe came in from January this year, are not retrospective. But, for example, Beta has withdrawn their Tug JD3 from the market because it doesn't meet the new rules: goodbye to the last "affordable" new-build trad style engine. You can still buy a new RN but at £16,000 they are not within everyone's budget.

I have never heard of anyone in an official peaked cap snuffling round and telling a boat owner to change his engine or risk a fine. Has anyone else?

My boat was designed for me by a Naval Architect a few years ago. I told him what engine was going to be installed, with the relevant details, a Gardner 6LW20. At no time did he mention engine emissions. Maybe it was because I was the boat fitter and therefore responsible for that side of things. 

As for deciding what is a replica, surely most boats, especially on the canal system, can be described as a replica of something. 

Automotive vehicles and furniture seem to have a defined age where they are classed as antique or vintage, boats don't as far as I know. 

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1 minute ago, Joe Bourke said:

 

As for deciding what is a replica, surely most boats, especially on the canal system, can be described as a replica of something. 

 

Yes, it's a tricky one, that same thought has sometimes occurred to me. For example, a narrowboat could be built with a hull which as near as possible copied the shape of a 1930s working boat - but with a full-length superstructure to make it suitable for family leisure cruising. The "Northwich Trader" might be an example of this practice. Is it then a replica? I don't know how it would be officially defined, and I don't know who does the "officially" part either.

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As far as i can see there is nothing to stop you specifying an emmissions compliant Beta 43 (for example) in its own engine room for your brand new boat,  and immediately after delivery having it replaced with a Lister, Gardner or other classic engine of your choice. <_<

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23 hours ago, dmr said:

Where did you read that it was regulations that caused Beta to withdraw the JD3?

I thought they withdrew it because it is an abomination, and not enough people were gullible enough to install it anymore.

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11 minutes ago, billS said:

I thought they withdrew it because it is an abomination, and not enough people were gullible enough to install it anymore.

I would quite like a real vintage engine instead of our JD3, and with monotonous regularity I make a list of the likely candidates and the  pros and cons of each. Always get the same result, the JD3 just about wins. Its far from perfect but it has a number of advantages, especially for a full time livaboard/roving trader.

..............Dave.

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1 minute ago, dmr said:

I would quite like a real vintage engine instead of our JD3, and with monotonous regularity I make a list of the likely candidates and the  pros and cons of each. Always get the same result, the JD3 just about wins. Its far from perfect but it has a number of advantages, especially for a full time livaboard/roving trader.

..............Dave.

Apart, perhaps, from its initial purchase price, what are the "cons" of a Gardner 2LW?

You can perhaps guess why I am asking this question.

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5 hours ago, Athy said:

Apart, perhaps, from its initial purchase price, what are the "cons" of a Gardner 2LW?

You can perhaps guess why I am asking this question.

I'm really busy at the moment doing some serious boating, but would love to start a new thread at some stage, maybe next winter, to talk about JD3 vs various vintage engines. The 2LW would actually be my most likely candidate for a JD3 replacement. The initial cost is certainly steep these days. Another concern, to quote the "mtb" criterion of exposed flywheel, is that the 2LW is really an elderly modern engine rather than a true vintage engine. If you want to poke fun at the JD3 as a tractor then the Gardners are essential a cut down bus engine.  I am also not yet convinced that a Gardner is up to 1200 hours per year, plus a fair few hours running just to charge batteries, and I don't want a separate generator. Any vintage engine can have an issue with spares and as we are now both in our 60's if we loose 6 months cruising due to an engine failure that is a serious issue, though I accept that importing a new John Deere 3029 lump might take almost that long. If a 2LW came my way I would most likely not turn it down.

I also like the fact that the 3029 is totally clean, there is almost 0% oil leakage, so the engine room is a part of our home rather than a cold dirty place. If I could make the JD3 sound as nice as a 2LW and get the tickover down below 450 then the JD3 would win hands down.

............Dave

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Thanks for your considered comments. Yes, quite a few LWs were used to power 'buses. Mine powered a railway locomotive.

The LW range was introduced in 1931, which in my book makes it fairly "vintage". It was advanced for its time, so perhaps seems more modern than some engines dating from a similar era.

In over 10 years, I have never yet needed to top the oil up. It gest changed once a year when I have the engine serviced, and that's it. I DO check it fairly regularly but the dipstick always registers "full".

I'm not sure what you mean about a Gardner being "up to 1,200 hours a year" so I can't comment on that. I have no idea how many hours ours does per year but it's probably fewer than that.

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12 hours ago, Athy said:

Thanks for your considered comments. Yes, quite a few LWs were used to power 'buses. Mine powered a railway locomotive.

The LW range was introduced in 1931, which in my book makes it fairly "vintage". It was advanced for its time, so perhaps seems more modern than some engines dating from a similar era.

In over 10 years, I have never yet needed to top the oil up. It gest changed once a year when I have the engine serviced, and that's it. I DO check it fairly regularly but the dipstick always registers "full".

I'm not sure what you mean about a Gardner being "up to 1,200 hours a year" so I can't comment on that. I have no idea how many hours ours does per year but it's probably fewer than that.

You really should get an engine hours counter or at least keep a log of hours run.

Most engines require oil changes between 100 and 250 hours running or once per year (whichever comes first), depending on type. Typically the older designs will be towards the lower figure.

Failing to change the oil regularly enough will result in premature wear.

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1 hour ago, cuthound said:

You really should get an engine hours counter or at least keep a log of hours run.

Most engines require oil changes between 100 and 250 hours running or once per year (whichever comes first), depending on type. Typically the older designs will be towards the lower figure.

Failing to change the oil regularly enough will result in premature wear.

Thanks for this advice. We do have the engine regularly serviced, every year, generally late August or early September. This includes changing the oil and changing or cleaning, as appropriate, its filters. It didn't come with an hours counter. Would the average boatyard be able to fit one?

The expression "premature wear" applied to a 1956 engine does make me smile, though to be fair, most of its insides were new in 2005.

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One of these would work.

http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Black-2In-Hour-Meter-For-Cart-Marine-Boat-Tractor-Generator-Engine-6-80V-UK-/192039338492

Avoiding "premature wear", even on a 1956 engine will save you lots of wonga as it will extend the time between rebuilds. :D

Oil change frequency for Gardner's was discussed on this forum in 2012, and the manufacturer recommended 400 hours, but the consensus was to change at 200-300 hours. You even contributed. :o

 

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I'm sure I did, but I evidently lack your memory capabilities!

I wonder why, if Gardner says or said 400 hours, other people reckoned that they were mistaken. A rough mental calc. suggests that we probably don't exceed 400 h.p.y., as we tend to use the boat only 7 or 8 months a year, and often for long weekends only during those months. So servicing once a year should be ample.

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1 hour ago, Athy said:

A rough mental calc. suggests that we probably don't exceed 400 h.p.y., as we tend to use the boat only 7 or 8 months a year, and often for long weekends only during those months. So servicing once a year should be ample.

Are you remembering to take into account all the hours that you just sit with it switched on listening to it? :)

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44 minutes ago, billS said:

Are you remembering to take into account all the hours that you just sit with it switched on listening to it? :)

..or "recharging the batteries and heating the domestic water" as it is officially hight.

Yes.

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5 hours ago, Athy said:

I'm sure I did, but I evidently lack your memory capabilities!

I wonder why, if Gardner says or said 400 hours, other people reckoned that they were mistaken. A rough mental calc. suggests that we probably don't exceed 400 h.p.y., as we tend to use the boat only 7 or 8 months a year, and often for long weekends only during those months. So servicing once a year should be ample.

Depends on usage. When Gardner specified 400 hours for marine use, it would based on commercial boats running for 12-16 hours a day, non-stop and heavily loaded.

Leisure use is much more lightly loaded and involves much more frequent stop/starts. This pattern of useage degrades the oil much faster. 

When I worked for BT, I was part of a team that pushed the oil changes on little used standby generators  (typically 12-100 hours running per year) from yearly to six yearly. However, this was based on the fact that standby generators coolant is always kept hot (to minimise wear and permit full load starts) and lots of analysis of used oil samples before making the decision.

  • Greenie 1
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The auction is postponed until the 1st June for some reason. CJM Asset Management are handling the auction. There must be over a hundred engines in the auction, mainly fairly large hp, so more suitable for Barges etc.

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Now confirmed, by a Beta bod at the Crick Show: the JD3 has indeed been withdrawn from sale because it does not comply with new emissions regulations, but the company intends to replace it by "something similar". Whether this means a modified John Deere-based engine or Something Completely Different I don't know.

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