Narrowboat Pitting In Process of Buying

[TwinPeaks]

Hi all,

I am in the process of buying a narrowboat. I have had a survey done and all readings were looking great.

The surveyor did the survey with the boat out the water just before it was blacked.

After leaving, the seller jet washed the hull and began the blacking process. I have returned to see the boat a couple of times and due to the large investment am very wary.

I am worried about the amount of pitting on the sides of the hull. I am attaching some photos for you all to see and to hopefully get some good advice.

Note: I did not feel confident at the end of the survey. Though the readings came out high (see picture) there was just something about the surveyor that didn't instill confidence.

Am I worrying over nothing? Or is this a clear 'walk away' case. This is my first boat.

Thanks, any advice much appreciated!

 

Edited April 30, 2017 by TwinPeaks

[rusty69]

What depth are the worst pits?  Assume it is 6mm. 

[TwinPeaks]

Yes 6mm. Surveyor didn't provide any readings on pitting on the day, though in picture 1 it looks like he has marked a pit 5.7. I am yet to receive the complete survey report. 

I know it's impossible to read by eye, but to me nothing looks deeper that 2mm, could be completely wrong though.

[Neil2]

From the pictures it looks bad, but it depends on the depth of the pitting relative to the thickness of the plate.  Anything over 3mm on a 6mm plate is cause for concern and would require a remedy of some sort.

The surveyor should have identified those pits and measured the depth.  If he hasn't, at the very least you ought to ask him to revisit the boat and advise on the state of the wear revealed by the cleaning process.  

With pitting like that on the hull sides I would be concerned about what's going on with the baseplate.  What did the surveyor say about that?

It might not be a walking away situation, anything is correctable and if the wear on the hull is as bad as it looks it should put you in a very strong bargaining position if you really like the boat.   

   

[rusty69]

17 minutes ago, TwinPeaks said:

Yes 6mm. Surveyor didn't provide any readings on pitting on the day, though in picture 1 it looks like he has marked a pit 5.7. I am yet to receive the complete survey report. 

I know it's impossible to read by eye, but to me nothing looks deeper that 2mm, could be completely wrong though.

It sounds like you haven't received the surveyors written report yet? I would reserve judgment until you have read it. 

2mm pitting in 6mm plate will likely be the limit for fully comp insurance. 

They look like ultrasonic thickness measurements I. E 5.7mm thick. 

Edited April 30, 2017 by rusty69

[TwinPeaks]

2 minutes ago, Neil2 said:

From the pictures it looks bad, but it depends on the depth of the pitting relative to the thickness of the plate.  Anything over 3mm on a 6mm plate is cause for concern and would require a remedy of some sort.

The surveyor should have identified those pits and measured the depth.  If he hasn't, at the very least you ought to ask him to revisit the boat and advise on the state of the wear revealed by the cleaning process.  

With pitting like that on the hull sides I would be concerned about what's going on with the baseplate.  What did the surveyor say about that?

It might not be a walking away situation, anything is correctable and if the wear on the hull is as bad as it looks it should put you in a very strong bargaining position if you really like the boat.   

   

The boat goes back in the water on Tuesday, I'll contact the surveyor and see if he can return.

Lowest reading on the hull baseplate was 8.1, all other readings were above 9.

Surveyor didn't mention anything on pitting at all, believe he has only taken readings from the scrapes he made.

My girlfriend and I do love the boat and it's our big move onto the water. We have gone out on the boat with the seller and enjoyed very much - but after seeing the pitting, I'm suddenly in a bit of a panic.

[Neil2]

Hull thickness readings don't really tell you much, pitting is what destroys the integrity of a steel hull and you really do need to establish the true extent and depth of the pits before handing over any money.  

There are some deep looking pits low down which is why I raised the issue of the baseplate - probably unprotected by blacking it will almost certainly be worse than the hull sides.  

Just out of interest does the boat have a mains electric land line? 

[TwinPeaks]

4 minutes ago, Neil2 said:

Hull thickness readings don't really tell you much, pitting is what destroys the integrity of a steel hull and you really do need to establish the true extent and depth of the pits before handing over any money.  

There are some deep looking pits low down which is why I raised the issue of the baseplate - probably unprotected by blacking it will almost certainly be worse than the hull sides.  

Just out of interest does the boat have a mains electric land line? 

Thanks for the advice Neil,

I know the boat been continually cruising using 12V power throughout. There is an inverter and one 240v plug point at the rear.

[mrsmelly]

How old is the hull? I have seen a lot worse. There are boats out there without pitting and there are many with way worse than that.

[rusty69]

Just now, mrsmelly said:

How old is the hull? I have seen a lot worse. There are boats out there without pitting and there are many with way worse than that.

Surely the age without price is meaningless. 

[mrsmelly]

1 minute ago, rusty69 said:

Surely the age without price is meaningless. 

No not in this case what I mean is if its 12 months old I wouldnt touch it with a " Barge pole " if its thirty years old?

[rusty69]

Just now, mrsmelly said:

No not in this case what I mean is if its 12 months old I wouldnt touch it with a " Barge pole " if its thirty years old?

Ah. See what you mean. 

[TwinPeaks]

1 minute ago, mrsmelly said:

No not in this case what I mean is if its 12 months old I wouldnt touch it with a " Barge pole " if its thirty years old?

It's a 1999 60ft Cruiser

[TwinPeaks]

Here is a video of my walk up the side of the boat.

 

[mrsmelly]

11 minutes ago, TwinPeaks said:

It's a 1999 60ft Cruiser

Ok so I may be wrong because fotos are impossible to judge by however it doesnt look so dreadful to me but again there are better hulls out there at this age. Remember the hull IS the boat not just a main part of it. You have spent a few bob on a survey and if at  this stage you are not 100 percent wanting the boat I would walk away as youwillnever be completely happy.Ifyoustilllove the boat get a couple of blokes with boating experience to look at it and get some opinions.

[dor]

I've just had my boat out for blacking.   At first sight, it doesn't look much different to the photos here, but all the pitting is under one mm deep, on a 6mm side, for a boat that has been in the water ten years.

 

Sometimes at first glance things can look worse than they are.  the chalked figures of, e.g. 5.7, will be the thickness of the steel, not the depth of the pit.  Probably on a 6mm plate.

[TwinPeaks]

59 minutes ago, dor said:

I've just had my boat out for blacking.   At first sight, it doesn't look much different to the photos here, but all the pitting is under one mm deep, on a 6mm side, for a boat that has been in the water ten years.

 

Sometimes at first glance things can look worse than they are.  the chalked figures of, e.g. 5.7, will be the thickness of the steel, not the depth of the pit.  Probably on a 6mm plate.

Thanks for the reply. I think the way the light falls in my photos do make the pits look bad. Hopefully worse than they are.

Here is another couple of photos from different angles..

 

 

[cuthound]

I think the markings left by the surveyor show remaining hull thickness. Why not give your surveyor a ring and discuss your concerns with him. After all it is what you are paying him for.

Edited May 1, 2017 by cuthound
To unmangle the effects of autocorrect.

[BWM]

Surveyors normally require the hull to be pressure washed before they carry out the examination, I'd be wary as to why this didn't happen. Some of the pitting on the stern is deep and would concern me, as would the other pitting not being restricted to the water line. As others have said, do your best to get the surveyor to have a second look now that the hull has been cleaned.

[Sea Dog]

14 hours ago, TwinPeaks said:

 

 

 

Not to cast aspersions, rather more for my own education, the very good yacht surveyors I knew would take their 'tickets', the scraping off of anti fouling coatings to reveal the GRP gel coat for moisture meter readings, at random placings and anywhere they thought merited a closer look. Whilst they probably took a similar number of 'tickets', when they saw other boats on the hard with symmetrical patterns such as above, this was looked down upon as typical of the cadre of surveyors who had learned their trade by correspondence course. I can see some attraction in a regular pattern on a much longer hull, I suppose, so does anyone know whether the same  holds true for steel thickness gauging?

To move on to this particular boat, the random 5.7 marking between the 18 and 19 columns does suggest that this surveyor has investigated something that caught his eye further - the patch of ginger colouration around there is rather eyecatching, and he has acted upon it. There may be similar off pattern measurements out of the photo too.  Perhaps that was the one of the deeper pits he saw and that measurement indicates a 0.3mm pit which gave him confidence that lesser pitting around wasn't threatening. You'll really only know that from his report, either written or verbal.

In defence of the surveyor, he does normally have to turn up at the pre arranged time and survey what's in front of him. If it hasn't been properly prepared or presented he either has to refuse or make the best of what can often be a fairly tight window of opportunity.  If, as suggested above, it hasn't been power washed, for example, it's not his responsibility, or necessarily practical, for him to take steps to get that done (although the hull above certainly doesn't look fresh from the water uncleaned to me).  He appears to have taken the step of repairing the blacking where he's taken the measurements too. Not all hulls out for survey are also going to be blacked, so a thorough high power pressure wash which can also remove areas of the hull coating might be undesirable. 

Of course, much of what appears to be pits in the photos can be dinks and scrapes in the old but firmly bonded on blacking. There's nothing like shiny black to show up imperfections either!  I'd tend to agree with others above who are less concerned, because photos can exaggerate and when I've been blacking my boat on a hard surrounded by others, many/most looked similar to how yours looks. We're talking fractions of millimetres here though, so measurements are essential and appearances can be deceptive. That said, the photo showing the stern after blacking does look a bit ropey, so I'd certainly want to know more.

Bottom line is, talk to your surveyor about your concerns in the first instance. Asking here is good to help you gauge whether you're worrying unnecessarily or not, but he's actually surveyed the boat and is (I trust) 'your' expert and not one foisted upon you by an unscrupulous broker.  Hopefully he's yours and a good one and his written report will hold all the answers you're seeking, so either read it first and ask questions after or, since you're worrying, ask early questions to set your mind at rest. 

 

[TwinPeaks]

46 minutes ago, Sea Dog said:

Not to cast aspersions, rather more for my own education, the very good yacht surveyors I knew would take their 'tickets', the scraping off of anti fouling coatings to reveal the GRP gel coat for moisture meter readings, at random placings and anywhere they thought merited a closer look. Whilst they probably took a similar number of 'tickets', when they saw other boats on the hard with symmetrical patterns such as above, this was looked down upon as typical of the cadre of surveyors who had learned their trade by correspondence course. I can see some attraction in a regular pattern on a much longer hull, I suppose, so does anyone know whether the same  holds true for steel thickness gauging?

To move on to this particular boat, the random 5.7 marking between the 18 and 19 columns does suggest that this surveyor has investigated something that caught his eye further - the patch of ginger colouration around there is rather eyecatching, and he has acted upon it. There may be similar off pattern measurements out of the photo too.  Perhaps that was the one of the deeper pits he saw and that measurement indicates a 0.3mm pit which gave him confidence that lesser pitting around wasn't threatening. You'll really only know that from his report, either written or verbal.

In defence of the surveyor, he does normally have to turn up at the pre arranged time and survey what's in front of him. If it hasn't been properly prepared or presented he either has to refuse or make the best of what can often be a fairly tight window of opportunity.  If, as suggested above, it hasn't been power washed, for example, it's not his responsibility, or necessarily practical, for him to take steps to get that done (although the hull above certainly doesn't look fresh from the water uncleaned to me).  He appears to have taken the step of repairing the blacking where he's taken the measurements too. Not all hulls out for survey are also going to be blacked, so a thorough high power pressure wash which can also remove areas of the hull coating might be undesirable. 

Of course, much of what appears to be pits in the photos can be dinks and scrapes in the old but firmly bonded on blacking. There's nothing like shiny black to show up imperfections either!  I'd tend to agree with others above who are less concerned, because photos can exaggerate and when I've been blacking my boat on a hard surrounded by others, many/most looked similar to how yours looks. We're talking fractions of millimetres here though, so measurements are essential and appearances can be deceptive. That said, the photo showing the stern after blacking does look a bit ropey, so I'd certainly want to know more.

Bottom line is, talk to your surveyor about your concerns in the first instance. Asking here is good to help you gauge whether you're worrying unnecessarily or not, but he's actually surveyed the boat and is (I trust) 'your' expert and not one foisted upon you by an unscrupulous broker.  Hopefully he's yours and a good one and his written report will hold all the answers you're seeking, so either read it first and ask questions after or, since you're worrying, ask early questions to set your mind at rest. 

 

Thanks for your response.

I have since had a reply from the surveyor:

The pictures do not look exceptional, we found pits up to 1mm deep when we inspected it.

I was handed a list of surveyors by the boat yard where the boat was to be blacked, rang round a lot of them, the man I went with gave me a detailed description of everything he would check and sounded like he knew what he was doing. Verbally he has said the hull is good based on the readings.

I agree with you now looking at the stern photo - couple of larger dinks there.

 

[WotEver]

19 minutes ago, TwinPeaks said:

The pictures do not look exceptional, we found pits up to 1mm deep when we inspected it.

Perfect then

[Sea Dog]

4 hours ago, TwinPeaks said:

Thanks for your response.

I have since had a reply from the surveyor:

The pictures do not look exceptional, we found pits up to 1mm deep when we inspected it.

I was handed a list of surveyors by the boat yard where the boat was to be blacked, rang round a lot of them, the man I went with gave me a detailed description of everything he would check and sounded like he knew what he was doing. Verbally he has said the hull is good based on the readings.

I agree with you now looking at the stern photo - couple of larger dinks there.

 

Oh good, I'm glad to hear you appear to be getting sound advice. If pitting was a linear thing (which of course it isn't) 1mm in almost 20 years means you can relax knowing that you have almost another 100 years in which to sort it out before daylight starts coming in! Trouble is, it's not linear and it won't be daylight, so you'll have to continue with inspections and blacking every 2-3 years like (most of) the rest of us!

From the sound of it, your survey report isn't going to give you cause the back out. So, if that is the case, may I be amongst the first to congratulate you on you new boat and wish you many happy years with her!

[TwinPeaks]

25 minutes ago, Sea Dog said:

Oh good, I'm glad to hear you appear to be getting sound advice. If pitting was a linear thing (which of course it isn't) 1mm in almost 20 years means you can relax knowing that you have almost another 100 years in which to sort it out before daylight starts coming in! Trouble is, it's not linear and it won't be daylight, so you'll have to continue with inspections and blacking every 2-3 years like (most of) the rest of us!

From the sound of it, your survey report isn't going to give you cause the back out. So, if that is the case, may I be amongst the first to congratulate you on you new boat and wish you many happy years with her!

If only it was linear! I do plan to keep the best care of her and will be inspecting/blacking every couple of years.

Today I visited a local Halfords and bought a gauge to measure the depth of the pits myself. I returned to the boat and measured A LOT of pits, nearly all of them were below 1mm. A couple I measured were at 1.3mm and only one at the stern measured just below 2mm. Although my device wouldn't have been 100% accurate the surveyor's response and my own measurements have given me confidence that the sides are not as bad as first thought and I'm happy to go on and purchase.

There is always something though.. I inspected the base plate also and couldn't find many pits at all to try. My main concern with the base plate was where the plate sections are welded together. There are 2 welds that join three pieces that form the base plate. These welds have some clear corrosion. On talking to a man who works on the boat yard (only man around on a Bank Holiday!) he explained how when the boat was made they may have only welded on the inside and when I take it out in a couple of years I could get it sorted then if I was concerned. I'll include some photos to show you.

Thank you for the congratulations! My girlfriend and I cannot wait to move onto her. I've just got to be happy with the base plate now - 

 

 

 

[rusty69]

You can have the worst pits welded if you are concerned.