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canoe etiquette?


wobbly ollie

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I have boated through that race going against them, ie I was coming from the Thames. I had no problem at all. the event is very well marshalled. The biggest problem was the smell of bacon butties the scouts were cooking at different places.  

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Slightly different but ..... many years ago as I turned my Small Woolwich out of the Soar heading towards Sawley I heard a canon fire as I passed the Trent Valley Sailing Club.

Now I've never been very athletic, however I've always been up for a challenge.  So imagine the thrill as a couple of dozen dinghies with sails and crewed by tiny children (whom in my opinion should have been at home doing their homework if you ask me) suddenly started bobbing and weaving in front of me.

Realising immediately that weight wise I was at a disadvantage, 22 Tons versus about a cwt. seemed a tad unfair so I felt no guilt at all unleashing all of my 22hp.

 

Due to my skill and expertise I won by about a dozen boat lengths (my boat not theirs) and ten minutes. I waited at the lock side awaiting the others and to be quite honest I was disappointed by their skulking poor sportsmanship.  Nobody congratulated me, in fact nobody even spoke to me. 

I didn't expect much , perhaps a burgee to fly from my looby pin, but I was wasting my hopes.

Never again, I felt quite rejected I can tell you.

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14 hours ago, The Bagdad Boatman (waits) said:

3. Sailboats must give way to canoes, kayaks, and rowboats, because these vessels are slower and less able to get out of the way.  So canoes, kayaks, and rowboats, are the stand on vessels.

He says, quoting from some website that is NOT the collregs.

Collregs don't mention canoes at all.

However, using the logic that you quote above, a narrowboat is slower and less able to get out of the way than a canoe, so it is the stand on vessel.

Of course any canoeist can think differently, and proceed on the basis that narrowboats must give way to him, and take avoiding action. I feel sure that his executors will argue the point well after the event.

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Indian traffic priorities should apply.  The etiquette actually practised on the roads takes due respect for the invulnerability of larger vehicles, and the smaller vulnerable party (pedestrian, cyclist, biker, car, etc.) gives way.  I spent 5 years in India and despite the apparent chaos on the road I have witnessed relatively few road accidents. 

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On 11/04/2017 at 09:23, WJM said:

The race is from Devizes to Westminster. There is no race anywhere else on the K&A or Thames over easter. Speaking as an experienced canoe racer and a narrowboater the most important advice I would give to a narrowboater is... just carry on doing exactly what you always do, do nothing unusual, travel a steady path at your normal speed. ... The Devizes to Westminster is a major international canoe race. In the canoe world it would have a standing alongside events like the London Marathon or the Tour de France. ... So enjoy your grandstand seat to watch some of the finest canoe racers in the world!

Good advice!

We've been cruising during the D to W race a couple of times -- usually against the flow. We've made it a habit to tie-up for 2 or 3 hours when meeting the serious front paddlers and watch the action. It's quite good fun. The MET, Army and various overseas pros take part. Many (most?) of the 4-day paddlers overnight in tents just above Newbury in and around the cricket grounds and leisure centre on Friday night ... and kick off again in the morning.

There are five classes of paddler that set off from Devizes at different times/days:

1. Senior Doubles - crews of 2 adults who race non-stop from start to finish, starting on Easter Saturday, finishing on Easter Sunday

2. Senior Singles - adult single paddlers who compete over 4 days starting on Good Friday, finishing on Easter Monday

3. Junior Doubles - crews of 2 juniors who compete over 4 days, starting on Good Friday, finishing on Easter Monday

4. Veteran / Junior - crews of 1 adult (over 35) and 1 junior who compete over 4 days starting on Good Friday, finishing on Easter Monday

5. Endeavour - a non-competitive doubles class held over 4 days starting on Good Friday, finishing on Easter Monday

The full bumpf: http://www.dwrace.org.uk/

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Wile we might squabble over coll regs which apply to tideways the greatest danger to a canoeist is being capsized and pulled into the propeller and killed. Our duty as boaters is to keep everybody safe and be aware of the dangers. Watching Steve Backshall and his wife training in the fast canoe it shows how unstable these boats are.

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On 11/04/2017 at 14:13, Machpoint005 said:

I think we all have a responsibility as boaters to try to make sure nobody (including canoeists) gets hurt.

 

13 hours ago, The Bagdad Boatman (waits) said:

 Our duty as boaters is to keep everybody safe and be aware of the dangers.

The new forum software hasn't cured the echo in here ...

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15 hours ago, The Bagdad Boatman (waits) said:

Wile we might squabble over coll regs which apply to tideways the greatest danger to a canoeist is being capsized and pulled into the propeller and killed. Our duty as boaters is to keep everybody safe and be aware of the dangers. Watching Steve Backshall and his wife training in the fast canoe it shows how unstable these boats are.

Ever seen the mirrors that some employers have that has a sign above it saying "The person responsible for your safety"?

The simple facts are that I cannot imagine any narrowboater doing anything other than their utmost to avoid a collision with a canoeist.

However, there is an issue, in that some people are out in canoes without the slightest concept of how a narrowboat will perform. Some seem to assume that a narrowboat will be able to stop on a sixpence, or turn in its own length to avoid them.

On several occasions, I've had canoeists try to race me for a narrow section, apparently oblivious to the fact that if they falter for any reason, it is very unlikely that I will be able to avoid hitting them, and that if I attempt to do so, it is very likely that I will have no steerage, and swing into them.

 

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Just now, mayalld said:

Ever seen the mirrors that some employers have that has a sign above it saying "The person responsible for your safety"?

The simple facts are that I cannot imagine any narrowboater doing anything other than their utmost to avoid a collision with a canoeist.

However, there is an issue, in that some people are out in canoes without the slightest concept of how a narrowboat will perform. Some seem to assume that a narrowboat will be able to stop on a sixpence, or turn in its own length to avoid them.

On several occasions, I've had canoeists try to race me for a narrow section, apparently oblivious to the fact that if they falter for any reason, it is very unlikely that I will be able to avoid hitting them, and that if I attempt to do so, it is very likely that I will have no steerage, and swing into them.

 

Another good post. Peoples views and knowledge on narrowboats is hugely limited as is proved time and time again when they ask me " How do you keep warm in the winter :rolleyes: ) I then visit them in their house and have to keep my coat on.

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if a canoeist is 'racing you' have no fear.   whatever you do he is quite capable of keeping himself clear.  canoeists like to use boats as moving obstacles (like slalom gates).

if a canoeist looks unsure, tippy and is moving around randomly splashing uselessly with his paddle, then he is probably a novice and is vulnerable.  keep clear.

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Just now, mayalld said:

... The simple facts are that I cannot imagine any narrowboater doing anything other than their utmost to avoid a collision with a canoeist.

However, there is an issue, in that some people are out in canoes without the slightest concept of how a narrowboat will perform. Some seem to assume that a narrowboat will be able to stop on a sixpence ...

We've had this with single kayakers (not in the D to W race).

We were coming into a lock lay-by -- about 3 boat-lengths away -- when a kayaker ran down and dropped a nice, lightweight kayak into the water right in the middle of the lay-by. He smiled, sort of like he'd won 'the race' to the lay-by. I called out for him to pull it out quick. He replied that we could stop by reversing and should just wait for him. The only response left was to yell that we weighed 15 tons, needed three boat lengths to stop, and would certainly crush his boat if he didn't move it. Thankfully he pulled it out.

It's not unlike stepping onto a zebra crossing when a lorry is bearing down on it -- confident that you 'are in the right'.

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Just now, Murflynn said:

 

if a canoeist looks unsure, tippy and is moving around randomly splashing uselessly with his paddle, then he is probably a novice and is vulnerable.  keep clear.

Thats just the point though isnt it? How the hell do I keep clear in 25 tons of steel with extremely limited manouverability with someone who is " uselessly splashing about " he/she should not be there without having some practice elsewhere first.

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Just now, Murflynn said:

if a canoeist is 'racing you' have no fear.   whatever you do he is quite capable of keeping himself clear.  canoeists like to use boats as moving obstacles (like slalom gates).

if a canoeist looks unsure, tippy and is moving around randomly splashing uselessly with his paddle, then he is probably a novice and is vulnerable.  keep clear.

With the greatest respect, you are wrong!

He is probably quite capable of keeping himself clear, provided nothing unforeseen happens.

Racing 15 tons of metal boat into a narrow spot is all well and good, until any one of a multitude of unforeseen equipment failures or unexpected underwater obstacles mean that he can't, and a collision becomes inevitable.

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Just now, mayalld said:

With the greatest respect, you are wrong!

He is probably quite capable of keeping himself clear, provided nothing unforeseen happens.

Racing 15 tons of metal boat into a narrow spot is all well and good, until any one of a multitude of unforeseen equipment failures or unexpected underwater obstacles mean that he can't, and a collision becomes inevitable.

It doesn't if the skipper of the boat has already thought ahead and backed off in plenty of time, allowing for such circumstances

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Just now, Naughty Cal said:

It doesn't if the skipper of the boat has already thought ahead and backed off in plenty of time, allowing for such circumstances

I've been in a situation where a canoeist decided to overtake me on the approach to Congleton Aqueduct.

Without warning, said canoeist who had been paddling in a leisurely fashion behind me for a mile or so suddenly decided to pass me when the bow was about a boat length from the narrows.

Unless we have a new rule, akin to the fabled lift bridge material that we still await, stating that all narrowboats must come to a dead stop mid channel, and not approach a narrow section lest a canoeist decides to be stupid, what would you suggest?

You can't anticipate every possible stupidity from others.

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Just now, mayalld said:

I've been in a situation where a canoeist decided to overtake me on the approach to Congleton Aqueduct.

Without warning, said canoeist who had been paddling in a leisurely fashion behind me for a mile or so suddenly decided to pass me when the bow was about a boat length from the narrows.

Unless we have a new rule, akin to the fabled lift bridge material that we still await, stating that all narrowboats must come to a dead stop mid channel, and not approach a narrow section lest a canoeist decides to be stupid, what would you suggest?

You can't anticipate every possible stupidity from others.

But you can predict some.

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Just now, Naughty Cal said:

But you can predict some.

Yes, but the more possible stupidity you predict the less probable that stupidity becomes, and the less reasonable it becomes to act in anticipation of the remote possibility.

Every time I approach a bridge, it is POSSIBLE that somebody could be hiding on the other side, just waiting to run out an commit suicide by leaping between my boat and the bridge.

I could take action to guard against this risk by stopping before each bridge, putting crew ashore, and passing only when signalled, but it isn't a scenario that could REASONABLY be predicted.

Likewise, if I am 70 feet from a narrow bit, and a canoe has been behind me for 20 minutes not taking any of the many opportunities to pass, it was entirely unpredictable that he would take it into his head to race me for the narrows, and I can't navigate so as to avoid a collision in that case.

 

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Just now, mayalld said:

Yes, but the more possible stupidity you predict the less probable that stupidity becomes, and the less reasonable it becomes to act in anticipation of the remote possibility.

Every time I approach a bridge, it is POSSIBLE that somebody could be hiding on the other side, just waiting to run out an commit suicide by leaping between my boat and the bridge.

I could take action to guard against this risk by stopping before each bridge, putting crew ashore, and passing only when signalled, but it isn't a scenario that could REASONABLY be predicted.

Likewise, if I am 70 feet from a narrow bit, and a canoe has been behind me for 20 minutes not taking any of the many opportunities to pass, it was entirely unpredictable that he would take it into his head to race me for the narrows, and I can't navigate so as to avoid a collision in that case.

 

Just squash him them and see what the inquest says.

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Just now, mayalld said:

Yes, but the more possible stupidity you predict the less probable that stupidity becomes, and the less reasonable it becomes to act in anticipation of the remote possibility.

Every time I approach a bridge, it is POSSIBLE that somebody could be hiding on the other side, just waiting to run out an commit suicide by leaping between my boat and the bridge.

I could take action to guard against this risk by stopping before each bridge, putting crew ashore, and passing only when signalled, but it isn't a scenario that could REASONABLY be predicted.

Likewise, if I am 70 feet from a narrow bit, and a canoe has been behind me for 20 minutes not taking any of the many opportunities to pass, it was entirely unpredictable that he would take it into his head to race me for the narrows, and I can't navigate so as to avoid a collision in that case.

 

Not only is it reasonable to expect the canoe to not behave in that manner, but I would also say it was gross recklessness on behalf of the canoe if they did.

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Just now, Naughty Cal said:

Just squash him them and see what the inquest says.

Death by misadventure seems the most likely outcome. Idiocy doesn't absolve him of responsibility. 

Nor does recklessness. 

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The courts don't approve of reckless acts by little boats, and I remembered a few years back during Cowes week a yacht collided with a tanker so I just googled it.  It was not the fine that hurt, but the costs award " .......Wilson was fined £2,000 for the offence of failing to keep a proper lookout and £500 for each of the two offences of impeding the passage of a vessel, and ordered to pay a £15 surcharge. The maximum penalty was £5,000 on each charge. He was ordered to pay the full costs of the prosecution, which totalled £100,056.68" 

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Just now, WotEver said:

Death by misadventure seems the most likely outcome. Idiocy doesn't absolve him of responsibility. 

Nor does recklessness. 

Some responsibility also lies with the skipper of the larger boat.

We are not talking super tankers with very limited maneuverability here.

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Just now, Naughty Cal said:

We are not talking super tankers with very limited maneuverability here.

With such a statement anyone would think you have no idea about skippering a narrowboat... oh, wait...

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14 hours ago, Naughty Cal said:

Some responsibility also lies with the skipper of the larger boat.

We are not talking super tankers with very limited maneuverability here.

A narrowboat on a narrow canal going into a bridge hole - can not go to port or starboard and no brakes.  Certainly can't go up, so I think you will have to agree the narrowboat is committed to going into the bridge hole or to avoid the canoe to deliberately crash into the bank/brickwork due to the negligence of the canoe that probably has no third party insurance, leaving the narrowboat to pay for all damage which they can not recover.

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