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Wet and Messy Bilges


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Hi,  I've been lifting a few boards from my, just over 2-month-old narrowboat to start removing ballast as more stuff is put on board in the cabin area (the engine bay is completely separate with a steel bulkhead between cabin and engine area).  The bilge areas have been painted and bricks with an indented side used as ballast. I've noticed the following:

1. Under every brick, there is water, not loads but more than a few drips
2. The entire bilge areas are rather messy with sawdust and insulation bits
3. There is no pathway from the bow to the stern for water to travel as the metalwork is welded side to side at regular intervals all through boat.  I have read this is normal for newer boats but not ideal!
4. There is a gap above each brick of about 1cm before the bottom of the bitumen painted bottom ply flooring.

Is this normal, have the bricks been on a pallet in the rain for example and they are just releasing their moisture and it will all just dry out. Or should I clean it all out and dry everything? 

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3 minutes ago, Robbo said:

There really should be airflow below the bricks so they shouldn't really be sat directly on top of the baseplate. 

 

What would you suggest I do?  Ignore it or raise them up off the baseplate a little.  I was in a builders merchant today and I can think of the ideal cheap alternative to raise the bricks off the baseplate but not too much so there is also air above too.  Tile spacer crosses!  The type you'd use to tile a floor, I think they go up to about 4mm.  Cheap and 1000's of them!  It would be a pain in the backside but if I need to do it it would be best.  

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2 minutes ago, jono2.0 said:

What would you suggest I do?  Ignore it or raise them up off the baseplate a little.  I was in a builders merchant today and I can think of the ideal cheap alternative to raise the bricks off the baseplate but not too much so there is also air above too.  Tile spacer crosses!  The type you'd use to tile a floor, I think they go up to about 4mm.  Cheap and 1000's of them!  It would be a pain in the backside but if I need to do it it would be best.  

I use old rubber door mats (the one with the holes) cut up into strips.

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Even though the hull is supposed to be dry bilge between front and rear bulkheads, the cross beams on the base plate should still have limber holes so that any water spilt or leaked from plumbing or whatnot can flow through to the rearmost bulkhead where a hatch in the floor should be positioned to pump out any water.   If it hasn't got them I would make them.

Edited by bizzard
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1 minute ago, bizzard said:

Even though the hull is supposed to be dry bilge between front and rear bulkheads, the cross beams on the base plate should still have limber holes so that any water spilt or leaked from plumbing or whatnot can flow through to the rearmost bulkhead where a hatch in the floor should be positioned to pump out any water.

Ours hasn't. I ended up cutting lots of inspection panels in the floor. 

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one way to lift the ballast is to use old electric cable run up and down, with gaps to let water drain back.   Not heard of this idea that new boats don't need a draining bilge under the cabin!  You should have a small access panel at the rear of the cabin to remove water from leaks, condensation etc.

Obviously, there should be a solid bulkhead or plate to separate the cabin bilge from the engine bilge - although in a lot of trads this is not the case.

Edited by dor
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2 minutes ago, rusty69 said:

Ours hasn't. I ended up cutting lots of inspection panels in the floor. 

Not good boat building practice having no limber holes. Proper boat building practices is getting rarer and rarer on the inland waterways. Many of em need to visit proper traditional coastal boat builders to learn simple and obvious things like that.

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1 minute ago, bizzard said:

Not good boat building practice having no limber holes. Proper boat building practices is getting rarer and rarer on the inland waterways. Many of em need to visit proper traditional coastal boat builders to learn simple and obvious things like that.

I agree. It seems a stupid idea.you are bound to have a leak at some stage, and if there is no access, no way to remove the water. 

We were told is was built by a reputable builder too. 

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2 minutes ago, rusty69 said:

I agree. It seems a stupid idea.you are bound to have a leak at some stage, and if there is no access, no way to remove the water. 

We were told is was built by a reputable builder too. 

As far as steel narrow and wide beam boats go the welders are usually industrial welder not really boat welders,  probably good welders but don't understand the needs of boats. The same goes for the fitting out, joinery woodwork, it all might look terrific and is good workmanship, but more often than not they've constructed stuff permanently over and boxed in important equipment especially electrical stuff and plumbing, which might need maintenance or repair and to get at it means demolition.

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This issue cropped up in another thread where a Springer owner suspected the bilge had sealed bulkheads.  I think it is inevitable you will get water collecting in these compartments, there's really no way to get them dry without some air circulating.  

My boat has the ballast (paving slabs) suspended a good 2" from the base plate and the bilge is bone dry.  I suspect older boats (apart from Springers) are better served in this respect because once upon a time they were built with "wet" bilges where surface water entering the bow migrated to the stern to be pumped out.  My theory is that even when dry bilges became the norm builders were accustomed to this form of construction so just carried on making them that way.  ie what used to be a conduit for surface water became a ventilation channel.  

I've noticed the bilges on modern boats seems to be getting more and more shallow.  A bilge with house bricks laid flush on the base and a 1cm gap above might give you lots of internal headroom but it's not going to stay dry.  

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Just now, bizzard said:

As far as steel narrow and wide beam boats go the welders are usually industrial welder not really boat welders,  probably good welders but don't understand the needs of boats. The same goes for the fitting out, joinery woodwork, it all might look terrific and is good workmanship, but more often than not they've constructed stuff permanently over and boxed in important equipment especially electrical stuff and plumbing, which might need maintenance or repair and to get at it means demolition.

Ours is Les Allen built. Who I believe we're ex working boat builders. It has a keelsan down the centre,but as far as I know, no limber holes. 

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1 minute ago, rusty69 said:

Ours is Les Allen built. Who I believe we're ex working boat builders. It has a keelsan down the centre,but as far as I know, no limber holes. 

If its got a Keelson I'd have thought it had limber holes, close to either side of it.

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2 minutes ago, rusty69 said:

Nope. Just checked. 

Sorry op, I seemed to have hijacked your thread. 

 

No worries,  I've just checked too and I don't have any Keelsons (after Googling what they were!). Not great pics but something I grabbed when I visited it being made.

So would you all suggest I 'create' a route for water to travel from bow to stern?  3x 6mm holes drilled as low as I dare on each angle that's welded to the baseplate? One port, one starboard and one in the middle?

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4 minutes ago, jono2.0 said:

No worries,  I've just checked too and I don't have any Keelsons (after Googling what they were!). Not great pics but something I grabbed when I visited it being made.

So would you all suggest I 'create' a route for water to travel from bow to stern?  3x 6mm holes drilled as low as I dare on each angle that's welded to the baseplate? One port, one starboard and one in the middle?

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The trouble is getting a drill in there low enough to make any difference without drilling into the baseplate. 

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2 minutes ago, jono2.0 said:

No worries,  I've just checked too and I don't have any Keelsons (after Googling what they were!). Not great pics but something I grabbed when I visited it being made.

So would you all suggest I 'create' a route for water to travel from bow to stern?  3x 6mm holes drilled as low as I dare on each angle that's welded to the baseplate? One port, one starboard and one in the middle?

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It looks like there maybe gaps between some of the welding runs under the cross beams, but they wouldn't be sufficient and would block up with muck easily. If you know someone with oxy-acetylene cutting gear or a plasma cutter it would be much much quicker than drilling and because you wouldn't be able to drill straight holes flush with the baseplate but at an angle because of the bulk of the drill and chuck, proud of the baseplate ridges would be left and would still dam some water. Better than non though.

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1 minute ago, rusty69 said:

The trouble is getting a drill in there low enough to make any difference without drilling into the baseplate. 

That is exactly my worry too. "3x 6mm holes drilled as low as I dare" It's just my luck I'd go too far and create a nice feature fountain only for it to become a nice under-water boat exhibit! I know it's 10mm of solid steel to get through but I don't want to risk it.


I think I may create inspection squares along one side of the flooring.  It's all got to be lifted so I can remove ballast for things like cooker, multi fuel fire, shower weight etc. so I can saw off a corner of each before fitting it back down.  

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1 minute ago, jono2.0 said:

That is exactly my worry too. "3x 6mm holes drilled as low as I dare" It's just my luck I'd go too far and create a nice feature fountain only for it to become a nice under-water boat exhibit! I know it's 10mm of solid steel to get through but I don't want to risk it.


I think I may create inspection squares along one side of the flooring.  It's all got to be lifted so I can remove ballast for things like cooker, multi fuel fire, shower weight etc. so I can saw off a corner of each before fitting it back down.  

You could drill as close as you dare and finish off to the baseplate with a grinding ball in a small Dremel drill, or any small drill for that matter.

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2 minutes ago, jono2.0 said:


I think I may create inspection squares along one side of the flooring

I put some inspection hatches in ours which are checked on a regular basis. There is also a removable floor section at the front by the pump and water tank. The bath drain is also mounted over a plastic container in case of leakage. Paranoid or what?

The trouble with having a Keelson is that two lots of inspection hatches are required each side of it. I I didn't go that far. 

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1 hour ago, rusty69 said:

Ours is Les Allen built. Who I believe we're ex working boat builders. It has a keelsan down the centre,but as far as I know, no limber holes. 

All the pictures I have seen of Les Allen boats under construction clearly show limber holes adjacent to the keelson.

Given the Allens background in wooden boat building (which is the reason the boats have a keelson) I find it hard to believe they would build a boat without them.   

I can't think of a good reason to omit limber holes, other than to save a bit of construction time, but maybe there is one?   

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4 minutes ago, Neil2 said:

All the pictures I have seen of Les Allen boats under construction clearly show limber holes adjacent to the keelson.

Given the Allens background in wooden boat building (which is the reason the boats have a keelson) I find it hard to believe they would build a boat without them.   

I can't think of a good reason to omit limber holes, other than to save a bit of construction time, but maybe there is one?   

I will have another look, but I either missed them, or perhaps it's not a Les Allen as I was led to believe. 

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38 minutes ago, rusty69 said:

I will have another look, but I either missed them, or perhaps it's not a Les Allen as I was led to believe. 

Rusty - there should be small like quarter circle holes in the cross members where they meet the keelson, it's possible they are obscured by the ballast?

Interesting though, I can't think of another builder who routinely used keelsons (apart from Steve Hudson, I think,) though I have a feeling a few Hancock and Lane boats had them.  

What evidence do you have that the builder was Les Allen?  

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