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Falkirk Wheel Closing to Boats?


Billw

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2 minutes ago, WJM said:

How does removing 50% of the boat capacity reduce 'availability' by 75%?  (This is a balanced system where both caissons move - one up, one down)

 

If they are going to be rotating the device much more (to carry the foot passengers in the dry caisson) then a greater supply of wet caisson movements will be automatically created - boat capacity goes up?

The wheel normally does 2 x 180degree rotations per hour, with each caisson occupied by a trip boat. 3 rotations per hour can be achieved. A Narrowboat can go alongside a trip boat. Filling one caisson with a "pod" reduces narrowboat capacity by 50%.

Widebeams can be accommodated by a third rotation each hour. There is a slight problem with manning, as the Wheel needs 3 persons to operate it, one in the control room, and one on each caisson. The trip boat crew can perform the caisson function, but are not available for the "extra" rotation, so 2 other staff members need to be found for a wide beam passage. 

The "extra" rotation can also accommodate a narrowboat in the same direction as the wide beam, and another two boats in the opposite direction. 

I didn't do the modelling, so I'm not sure how the 75% figure was arrived at. My gut feeling, however, is that it's not far off the mark.

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30 minutes ago, WJM said:

How many times CAN the wheel be rotated per day? And how many times IS IT rotated per day? Divide one by the other and you will get the actual usage of the facility - and I bet it isn't even close to 10%

At possible 3 per hour, and actual 2, that's 66.6%.

 

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1 hour ago, WJM said:

Closed to Navigation: Repurposing one caisson wont make any meaningful difference to the operation of a facility that is used at a fraction of it's capacity. This surely a non-story!

 

 

"A fraction of its capacity": Perhaps if you'd seen the hire boats queuing for their place on the wheel throughout Saturday and Sunday afternoons you would come up with a different assessment!

But then, of course, with SC having effectively driven the hire boating industry off the Lowland Canals it does become a non-story as demand for the Wheel has been decimated in one go. Clever, eh!

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Just now, Naughty Cal said:

Scottish Canals don't exactly go out of their way to encourage visiting boat owners to their waterways.

The cost of our visitors licence for 7 days on the Caledonian this year is going to be £140.70!

Hardly cheap for a 23ft boat and way more expensive then other areas we have visited. The EA charged us £14 when we had a week on the Fens and the Broads Authority was £31 when we visited last year.

Encouraging boats, boaters and boating is not terribly high on SC's list. At the World Canals Conference in Inverness last year they were proud to present themselves as a regeneration agency rather than a navigation authority.

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Just now, Up-Side-Down said:

"A fraction of its capacity": Perhaps if you'd seen the hire boats queuing for their place on the wheel throughout Saturday and Sunday afternoons you would come up with a different assessment!

Based on the annual figures that would indicate that the lift is empty and idle Monday to Friday. Not exactly a loss of a navigation.

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Just now, WJM said:

Based on the annual figures that would indicate that the lift is empty and idle Monday to Friday. Not exactly a loss of a navigation.

Or that the wait times are somewhat reduced? The trip boats are active throughout the week and the hire boats tend to return from Edinburgh in the early part of the week to cruise to Glasgow. Just saying what I've observed when I've been moored in the basin at the bottom of the Wheel.

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Just now, WJM said:

Averaging half a boat per day, I feel confident that they will be able to maintain throughput at current levels if the capacity is slashed from the current maximum of 80 boats per day to a mere 40!

80 boats a day?  Where does this figure come from?  Bearing in mind that there is usually one of the wheel trip boats in a caisson for every wheel lift or drop some times a trip boat in both caisson, and you can only have one other boat in with a trip boat (unless they are short boats) I don't see the numbers being anywhere near 80 possible boats a day 

I think you have been reading the blurb put out when the wheel opened when they talked about lots of boats in a caisson. That made those on us who actually took boats up and down laugh but I suppose it was good publicity 

Haggis 

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Just now, Up-Side-Down said:

"A fraction of its capacity": Perhaps if you'd seen the hire boats queuing for their place on the wheel throughout Saturday and Sunday afternoons you would come up with a different assessment!

But then, of course, with SC having effectively driven the hire boating industry off the Lowland Canals it does become a non-story as demand for the Wheel has been decimated in one go. Clever, eh!

And therein is a problem IF (and it is IF) every hire boat goes out for the week and goes through the wheel that's 42 passages in the week, but the demand is focused on Saturday afternoon and Friday evening - Foxton Locks had the same problem and sometimes still have. 

You could actually get 42 narrow boat passages through in the week, even with one caisson out of action, if they were a bit more spread out. 

I can believe there are occasions when all the boats are out, indeed it would be good business practice to have weeks with full utilisation  - if, however they are managing to get all 21 out for a 25 week season I'd be astonished. 

Reading the Falkirk Herald article, i sense a (possibly justified) campaign to get Scottish Waterways to lower their proposed charges, so they may have reached an impasse in negotiations

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It is not just the hire fleet which will be affected but the Seagull Trust boats based in Falkirk 

The Seagull trust offers free boat trips to handicapped and disabled people and they have several bases on the Scottish Canals 

They use wide beam boats with wheelchair lifts. They have a Base in Falkirk and their regular trips from there are down the staircase through roughcastle tunnel and down the wheel 

The next trip is the reverse 

These are the boats which will be affected most buy virtually putting one caisson out of use as they cannot share with a trip boat 

A narrow boat can 

The Seagull Trust do an amazing job and bring pleasure to so many disadvantages people that it will be a great pity if their activities are curtailed 

The Seagull Trust exists on donations and all their staff are volunteers 

Haggis 

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Just now, Machpoint005 said:

Is there any practical reason why the 'people pod' in the caisson couldn't be made narrow beam?

The people pod is being touted as a different wheel experience, and as a venue for events, parties, etc. 

Try disco dancing, an eightsome reel, or even a genteel waltz in a narrowboat! (or just circulating at a party)

To be honest, I can see how a "people pod" could be a useful and profitable addition to the Wheel. The danger is that it becomes a permanent fixture.

 

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Just now, magpie patrick said:

 

Reading the Falkirk Herald article, i sense a (possibly justified) campaign to get Scottish Waterways to lower their proposed charges, so they may have reached an impasse in negotiations

Unfortunately, I don't think it is. I spoke to a couple of Capercaillie directors after the User Meeting last Saturday, and they were of the opinion that they had reached the end of the road. One of them was almost in tears.

The main problem is that Scottish Canals are not boat oriented, and see themselves more as a property company, attempting to maximise returns from their assets, rather than developing the canals for boat movements. 

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Just now, Iain_S said:

Unfortunately, I don't think it is. I spoke to a couple of Capercaillie directors after the User Meeting last Saturday, and they were of the opinion that they had reached the end of the road. One of them was almost in tears.

The main problem is that Scottish Canals are not boat oriented, and see themselves more as a property company, attempting to maximise returns from their assets, rather than developing the canals for boat movements. 

Let this be a warning to us English (and Welsh) boaters too as there are many people within the CaRT property department who have that very same mentality. It will soon be time for all boaters (ccers, cmers, leisure boaters and hire companies) and fishermen and walkers to bury their differences and put up a united fight.

.................Dave

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11 hours ago, Iain_S said:

Unfortunately, I don't think it is. I spoke to a couple of Capercaillie directors after the User Meeting last Saturday, and they were of the opinion that they had reached the end of the road. One of them was almost in tears.

The main problem is that Scottish Canals are not boat oriented, and see themselves more as a property company, attempting to maximise returns from their assets, rather than developing the canals for boat movements. 

One of the issues with the Scottish Canals is that they haven't attracted that much boating activity - I'm not sure how many private boats are based on the canals but from what I gather very few of them ever go anywhere. In the later 90's (when the Falkirk Wheel was being built) the English canal system roughly had 1 hire boat and ten private boats for every mile of canal, and because hire boats got about ten times the use of private boats then an observer on  summer Sunday would see a busy canal with about 50/50. Capercaillie Cruisers seem to have gone some way with the hire boats (more comment below) but the level of use by private boats seems to have fallen well short - I'm not sure whether they simply aren't there or they are there but don't move very much. 

With regards to the wheel there is also an issue that whilst it's a feature it is also a barrier in the same way that, say, Marple Locks are, I've had boats moored on the summit of the Macc and have gone past the top of Marple Locks far more often than I've gone down them - the novelty wear off, that may be happening with the Scottish Canals and that long pound from Falkirk to Edinburgh.

CRT will struggle if they go too far down the property route because of the sheer number of boaters - I know that there is a reduction in ultisation as numbers have gone up, this is an extension of an historic trend, but so many spots around the canal system are busy all day every day in Summer that significant opposition would arise from boaters and from locals if the capacity of some major locations was restricted to, say, 5 boats a day. The local opposition is significant, has the Scottish public signed up to the idea that the canals are about boats or do they see them as linear parks? This problem has also resulted in the Basingstoke Canal struggling. Whilst we might moan about CRT promoting non-boating uses for  most of their waterways boating is so entrenched they don't need to promote it. 

On the hire fleet, it wouldn't be the first time that greedy management has killed the goose that lays the golden eggs, on the canals and elsewhere . It would help if there were a Scottish IWA or if the IWA for England and Wales took a bit more interest. However, whilst the Falkirk Boats are a bit of a success story they seem to be the only show in town, and perhaps the exception rather than the rule. If the hire market was really ripe, I'd have expected more operators with up to half a dozen boats based along the canal for example (the first thing that comes up on a google search is boats being used as Air BnB - that's really not healthy).

Also, in our anglo-perspective, the English and Welsh Canals are unusually popular by international standards - look how quiet the canals of Ireland and France are (And how little the user pays). Scottish Canals might be being squeezed by an anglo-saxon approach to management and European levels of use. 

Is there any organisation that can pick a fight with the navigation authority? If so, who is it? 

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21 hours ago, magpie patrick said:

Scottish Waterway's train set mentality doesn't help - I can't think of any other major leisure waterway where the locks MUST be worked by canal staff other than perhaps the Shannon*, where there are 5 locks in about 120 miles so the locks aren't exactly a restriction. 

*I realise the Caledonian works like this too, but again there are huge lengths where one can cruise without needing staff in attendance

I don't know enough about Capercaillie Cruisers to comment on the business model, but the market for canal holidays in the Scottish lowlands needs a a lot of promotion and development, the market needs to be created not just tapped into, you can't just tag it on to the English tourism offer.

Fully agreed.

In theory I see no reason why the Lowland Canals couldn't be as popular for hire-boating as another isolated waterway, the Mon & Brec. Ok, perhaps the scenery is less wonderful, but there's more to do - the Wheel, the Helix, and Edinburgh itself.

Yet there are (IIRC) five hire-fleets on the Mon & Brec, and just one on the Lowlands - soon to be zero.

To make a success of the Lowlands, SC would have to win the enthusiasts over first (whether local or England & Wales-based), whose recurring custom then provides the seed for a mass-market operation. That's pretty much how the canals south of the border became popular, after all. But that hasn't happened, for the two reasons you cite: few enthusiasts want to boat a waterway where all the locks are operated by someone else at a pace not of your choosing*, and promotion has been pitiful.

To be fair, this started before Scottish Canals was set up and is by no means exclusive to Scotland. Dave Fletcher and, particularly, Derek Cochrane were emphatic that getting the Millennium restorations to work would require sustained effort: I remember Cochrane making that point about the HNC and Rochdale several times. But then BW's management changed, and the attitude became "we've been lumbered with these restored canals" (closure of the Rochdale even being considered) rather than "let's make a success of them". I do think CRT is heading back in the right direction, as per the mooted HLF bid for the Rochdale and Calder & Hebble corridor; it's a shame if Scottish Canals aren't.

 

* Ok, there's the Thames, but that's a different clientele and I doubt you're going to get many Thames boaters signing up for a holiday in Falkirk...

  • Greenie 1
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4 hours ago, magpie patrick said:

(snip)

I'd have expected more operators with up to half a dozen boats based along the canal for example (the first thing that comes up on a google search is boats being used as Air BnB - that's really not healthy).

Also, in our anglo-perspective, the English and Welsh Canals are unusually popular by international standards - look how quiet the canals of Ireland and France are (And how little the user pays). Scottish Canals might be being squeezed by an anglo-saxon approach to management and European levels of use. 

Is there any organisation that can pick a fight with the navigation authority? If so, who is it? 

The difficulties with setting up a hire fleet on the Scottish Lowland Canals are premises, and, as Capercaillie have found, the trading agreement with Scottish Canals. There are very few non- online locations and very few facilities. Capercaillie was established in the very early days, with two boats. At the time, there was one other hire boat, which was based at Linlithgow. Capercaillie began managing boats from other hire fleets, and also built up their facilities. Their boats are well used; three new ones arrived a couple of weeks ago, bringing the total number of boats to about 20. From Easter onwards, most of them are hired out, and it is unusual to see more than three or four boats on their moorings. They are a remarkably successful hire fleet.

On the last question, the Scottish Inland Waterways Association was wound up several years ago (unfortunately!). A new group, the Lowland Canals User Group, is in the process of registering as a SCIO (Scottish Charities Incorporated Organisation) and has already had some success with regard to SC's proposed mooring fee increases. Although not successful in changing the methodology used, they have managed to limit increases to £100 per year, plus C.P.I.. There are some very able people involved with it, and hopefully it will be a force to be reckoned with in the future.

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I can confirm that IWA is extremely concerned about these issues and has written to Scottish Canals this week about the closing down of the hire boat operation and also the potential for restrictions of boat movements on the Falkirk Wheel as a result of the Rotate project.  IWA has issued a press release today which can be seen on IWA’s website www.waterways.org.uk/news/view?id=309&x[0]=news/list

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3 hours ago, WotEver said:

Well that seems a lot more reasonable than all the scaremongering. Are they lying?

Perhaps I can help you draw some conclusions:

1) Once upon a time there was a local area manager for the Lowland Canals who was responsible for all day to day (and longer term) navigational matters. The bank staff were answerable to him and he could be approached by all SC boating customers who had a problem. Bit like in England really. He also had responsibility for the Falkirk Wheel and steadily grew the numbers visiting this attraction over the years, making it the success it has become today.

When his position became untenable he left and is now pursuing a very successful career with ScotRail. He was followed, shortly afterwards, by the director responsible for operational matters on the Scottish waterways.

2) The local area manager was not replaced and boaters etc now have to deal directly with a 'Head of Customer of Operations'.

3) Most operational matters now seem to effectively fall under the auspices of the Property Department which, supported by two full time spin doctors, is responsible for running the Falkirk Wheel and operating all moorings. Naturally it deals with all commercial lettings and all forms of property development. This department has grown hydra-like in the last seven years and there is nowhere that is influence is not now felt across the entire Scottish canal system. 

4) The Property Department is staffed exclusively by estate agents with no boating experience or, indeed, interest in boating. They are also the masters of mis-information: one oft quoted example, given to an inexperienced boater bringing a boat onto the western end of the Forth & Clyde Canal, following launching at a local boatyard on the tidal River Clyde, was that high tide at Bowling Sea Lock was always at ten past ten every morning. Fortunately the hapless skipper spoke to the Bowling Harbourmaster just before setting out on his voyage!

5) So in making any decisions about the overall veracity of the SC press release I would consider your own personal experience of the estate agency profession as a whole when, say, renting, buying or selling a property, remembering that your average estate agent isn't supported by an entire PR department! 

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Who does Scottish Canals report to? Is it the Scottish government? It seems to me that IWA's press release would be better sent to the relevant government department and local authorities along the full length of the canals. SC clearly aren't really listening.

Edited by David Mack
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48 minutes ago, David Mack said:

Who does Scottish Canals report to? Is it the Scottish government? It seems to me that IWA's press release would be better sent to the relevant government department and local authorities along the full length of the canals. SC clearly aren't really listening.

That is undoubtedly SC's forte!

Yes, they are a quango just as BW were, and they report to the Scottish Government. It seems that at CEO level a lot of time is put in convincing Holyrood that SC is doing a splendid job!

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