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Advice sought re. battery replacement


Froggy

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8 hours ago, Mike the Boilerman said:

 

Urban miff. or do you haver a link?

I'd be miffed if my boat blew up, whatever the cause :D

Edited by cuthound
To unmangle the effects of autocorrect.
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1 hour ago, Robbo said:

 

Not the one DC was referring to, but it does happen..

http://www.glensfallschronicle.com/boat-fire-did-gas-go-in-wrong-chamber/

 

 

I would suggest that an ignition 'spark' would b unlikely to ignite fuel held in another tank.

My guess would be that petrol vapour had fallen into the engine bay, and it was that that ignited.

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16 minutes ago, Alan de Enfield said:

I would suggest that an ignition 'spark' would b unlikely to ignite fuel held in another tank.

My guess would be that petrol vapour had fallen into the engine bay, and it was that that ignited.

If the tank wasn't designed for holding petrol it could have had vents that weren't suitable and the vapour collected in the engine bay.

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  • 2 weeks later...

Well, back on topic ;) and an update to our battery saga. We had a wonderful four days on the cut over the Easter weekend. However, at one point we pulled in to a chandlers to get our stern greaser sorted out, and at this juncture my other half decided to have the batteries replaced at the same time (they had been playing up a bit the previous evening, and followers of this thread will know that two of our bank of four 6v batteries had been disconnected from the circuit). I regret having agreed to this now, because the chandlers didn't stock 6v batteries so we ended up with two 12v batteries as shown in the picture. These are Leoch GTP-12150s, and are pretty good quality (and expensive) units, but i had mistakenly underestimated the capacity of the Trojans from memory, which are considerably superior. We therefore now have a mere 300 Ah capacity compared with 500 if we'd gone for four T-105s. Well, i guess we're stuck with them now, and will just have to manage our power consumption a bit more carefully. :( I guess there are some disadvantages in having really high capacity batteries in that they would require more engine running to get them fully charged and keep them above 50%.....  Anyway, the main reason for posting the picture is to ask whether this is the optimum wiring configuration for two batteries in parallel, since the wiring diagrams i've looked at show the positive and negative feeds to the circuit coming off the same battery. Also, can another be added to this circuit, or do they have to be connected up in multiples of two?

WP_20170417_17_15_06_Pro.jpg

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1. The size of the batteries has nothing to do with how long you have to charge them. That is dictated by how much you take out, not how big they are.  Take 3 pints out of a gallon container and you have to replace 3 pints. Take 3 pints from a 10 gallon container and you still only have to replace 3 pints  

2. Yes, they're wired just fine.

3. Yes, you could add any number of extra 12V batteries, 1, 2, 3 etc.  

Edited by WotEver
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The wiring looks good. Hard to tell from the picture, but make sure that they can't move around, or be knocked over. A boat safety scheme requirement and sensible too. This might involve a bit of woodwork. Always something to consider when changing to different sizes and/or numbers of batteries. A third battery would need another short red and black link wire, with the red wire to the boat going to one end battery and the black wire to the other end battery of the three. Three batteries are fine, provided they are of the same construction type.

Jen

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1 hour ago, Froggy said:

Well, back on topic ;) and an update to our battery saga. We had a wonderful four days on the cut over the Easter weekend. However, at one point we pulled in to a chandlers to get our stern greaser sorted out, and at this juncture my other half decided to have the batteries replaced at the same time (they had been playing up a bit the previous evening, and followers of this thread will know that two of our bank of four 6v batteries had been disconnected from the circuit). I regret having agreed to this now, because the chandlers didn't stock 6v batteries so we ended up with two 12v batteries as shown in the picture. These are Leoch GTP-12150s, and are pretty good quality (and expensive) units, but i had mistakenly underestimated the capacity of the Trojans from memory, which are considerably superior. We therefore now have a mere 300 Ah capacity compared with 500 if we'd gone for four T-105s. Well, i guess we're stuck with them now, and will just have to manage our power consumption a bit more carefully. :( I guess there are some disadvantages in having really high capacity batteries in that they would require more engine running to get them fully charged and keep them above 50%.....  Anyway, the main reason for posting the picture is to ask whether this is the optimum wiring configuration for two batteries in parallel, since the wiring diagrams i've looked at show the positive and negative feeds to the circuit coming off the same battery. Also, can another be added to this circuit, or do they have to be connected up in multiples of two?

WP_20170417_17_15_06_Pro.jpg

How much???? I would of stayed with 6 volters, typical inexperienced boaters being ripped off by a Marina  Chandlerly, considering you only went in for a £5 tin of grease

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1 hour ago, WotEver said:

1. The size of the batteries has nothing to do with how long you have to charge them. That is dictated by how much you take out, not how big they are.  Take 3 pints out of a gallon container and you have to replace 3 pints. Take 3 pints from a 10 gallon container and you still only have to replace 3 pints  

2. Yes, they're wired just fine.

3. Yes, you could add any number of extra 12V batteries, 1, 2, 3 etc.  

1. What i meant was that with a bigger capacity battery you would tend to take out more Ah before they required a recharge, hence that recharge would then take longer.

3. So, let's just check that i've learned something from the advice earlier in the thread. If i added a third battery, and for example fitted it to the left of the two in the photograph, i would then take a positive from the battery on the left in the photograph (which would now be the middle battery) to the positive on the new battery on the left, do the same with the negative terminals, and then shift the negative terminal to the engine bay over to the left-most battery, yes? In practice the batteries would be shifted width-ways across the battery tray as per the Trojans earlier in the thread, and i'm not sure that this would be achievable in practice because i think the battery dimensions are bigger than the T-105s and therefore probably wouldn't fit width-ways in the battery tray, but i would need to check when i return to the boat later in the week. If we could get an extra one of these batteries we would have similar capacity to four T-105s (but at higher cost). Can anybody see any significant advantages of these batteries over the T-105s, because i'm already regretting making the snap decision to get them when my other half suggested it, and desperately trying to put some positive spin on it?

 

EDIT: Apologies for the duplicated photograph, i've tried several things to remove one of them but without success, any advice gratefully received.

 

 

WP_20170417_17_15_06_Pro.jpg

WP_20170417_17_15_06_Pro.jpg

Edited by Froggy
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55 minutes ago, Jen-in-Wellies said:

The wiring looks good. Hard to tell from the picture, but make sure that they can't move around, or be knocked over. A boat safety scheme requirement and sensible too. This might involve a bit of woodwork. Always something to consider when changing to different sizes and/or numbers of batteries. A third battery would need another short red and black link wire, with the red wire to the boat going to one end battery and the black wire to the other end battery of the three. Three batteries are fine, provided they are of the same construction type.

Jen

Yes, the chandlers fitted the batteries for us and installed the wooden blocks, plus some to the left not shown on the picture, so the batteries seem pretty secure. We had our BSS only a couple of months ago so can rest easy on this one, and by the time the next one is due we will probably have sold the boat; if not we're likely to have new batteries and might revert to the four 6v option.

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19 minutes ago, Northernboater said:

How much???? I would of stayed with 6 volters, typical inexperienced boaters being ripped off by a Marina  Chandlerly, considering you only went in for a £5 tin of grease

I think they were £240 each, or possibly £220, the receipt is on the boat (and partner paid, more money that i owe her!). To be fair to the chandlery though, i've seen them at a higher price online, and it was my partner who suggested getting the batteries, not them, and i simply caved in in a moment of weakness! With regard to relative price, i know we could have got four T-105s for a similar price online.

Edited by Froggy
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7 minutes ago, Froggy said:

Yes, the chandlers fitted the batteries for us and installed the wooden blocks, plus some to the left not shown on the picture, so the batteries seem pretty secure. We had our BSS only a couple of months ago so can rest easy on this one, and by the time the next one is due we will probably have sold the boat; if not we're likely to have new batteries and might revert to the four 6v option.

Yes, but how much?? as not many chandlers have these batteries in stock, most just stick with the 110 amp basics, not the Leoch GTP-12150s,  expensive 

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1 minute ago, Northernboater said:

Yes, but how much?? as not many chandlers have these batteries in stock, most just stick with the 110 amp basics, not the Leoch GTP-12150s,  expensive 

I think our posts crossed, see my reply above, £220 or £240 each, i'm not sure which until i check the receipt when i return to the boat.

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9 minutes ago, Froggy said:

I think they were £240 each, or possibly £220, the receipt is on the boat (and partner paid, more money that i owe her!). To be fair to the chandlery though, i've seen them at a higher price online, and it was my partner who suggested getting the batteries, not them, and i simply caved in in a moment of weakness! With regard to relative price, i know we could have got four T-105s for a similar price online.

You can tell your the new breed of Boaters, take it it's your first boat LOL, 

Edited by Northernboater
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8 minutes ago, Froggy said:

Hmmm, i guess we all started learning somewhere.....

Yeh even when your from Ellesmere Port , LOL right next to the canal and the museum, 

8 minutes ago, Froggy said:

Fool, hahaha easily parted with his money hahaha

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3 minutes ago, Northernboater said:

Yeh even when your from Ellesmere Port , LOL right next to the canal and the museum, 

Fool, hahaha easily parted with his money hahaha

You are from Ellesmere Port?

Well i'm not too sure what pleasure you get from gloating but whatever turns you on.....  ;)

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5 minutes ago, Froggy said:

You are from Ellesmere Port?

Well i'm not too sure what pleasure you get from gloating but whatever turns you on.....  ;)

None, but you just sum up the new breed of Boaters, sorry

I'm just baffled what Chandlers have a couple of  £250 batteries in stock, I suspect not many.

 

Edited by Northernboater
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6 hours ago, Froggy said:

What i meant was that with a bigger capacity battery you would tend to take out more Ah before they required a recharge...

Well, yes you could, but ideally batteries require recharging daily if they've been discharged. If you're away from the boat then obviously you're not discharging the batteries and they don't require a daily charge but if you're on the boat and discharging the batteries at night then they should be recharged each morning. Gel batteries are somewhat more tolerant of this 'rule' than lead acid batteries but require quite different charging characteristics. I'll come to that later. 

6 hours ago, Froggy said:

If i added a third battery, and for example fitted it to the left of the two in the photograph, i would then take a positive from the battery on the left in the photograph (which would now be the middle battery) to the positive on the new battery on the left, do the same with the negative terminals, and then shift the negative terminal to the engine bay over to the left-most battery, yes?

Yes :)

6 hours ago, Froggy said:

Can anybody see any significant advantages of these batteries over the T-105s

The only advantage bearing in mind your usage as you explained earlier in the thread is that Gel batteries are somewhat more tolerant of being left in a discharged state for a day or two. But with their total capacity  being only 60% of 4 new Trojans you'll be needing to charge them up daily anyway. As I said earlier in this thread, for marine use Deep Cycle Traction Batteries are best, followed by Semi-Traction (like T105s), followed by Gel. Whatever you fit must be charged correctly for long life.

Gel batteries require an entirely different charging curve to conventional lead-acid so it is essential that you have set your Victron charger to the 'Gel' setting for when you're on shore power. Gel batteries also do not like to be charged for extended periods at absorption voltages once they are fully charged, so if you cruise for extended periods it may be advisable to fit an alternator controller which will monitor the batteries and reduce the alternator output when the batteries are full. It would help to know what voltage your alternator charges at.

Speaking of monitoring the batteries, what battery monitor do you have? Voltage? Current? Ah counter? 

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5 hours ago, WotEver said:

Well, yes you could, but ideally batteries require recharging daily if they've been discharged. If you're away from the boat then obviously you're not discharging the batteries and they don't require a daily charge but if you're on the boat and discharging the batteries at night then they should be recharged each morning. Gel batteries are somewhat more tolerant of this 'rule' than lead acid batteries but require quite different charging characteristics. I'll come to that later. 

Yes :)

The only advantage bearing in mind your usage as you explained earlier in the thread is that Gel batteries are somewhat more tolerant of being left in a discharged state for a day or two. But with their total capacity  being only 60% of 4 new Trojans you'll be needing to charge them up daily anyway. As I said earlier in this thread, for marine use Deep Cycle Traction Batteries are best, followed by Semi-Traction (like T105s), followed by Gel. Whatever you fit must be charged correctly for long life.

Gel batteries require an entirely different charging curve to conventional lead-acid so it is essential that you have set your Victron charger to the 'Gel' setting for when you're on shore power. Gel batteries also do not like to be charged for extended periods at absorption voltages once they are fully charged, so if you cruise for extended periods it may be advisable to fit an alternator controller which will monitor the batteries and reduce the alternator output when the batteries are full. It would help to know what voltage your alternator charges at.

Speaking of monitoring the batteries, what battery monitor do you have? Voltage? Current? Ah counter? 

We have a 20 year old Victron that doesn't feature a gel setting, just automatic float and equalize settings. We have no monitoring equipment save the voltmeter built into the control panel. So what happens if you don't 'nurture' the charge on these gel batteries, i'm assuming it just reduces their life? I'm already thinking that we should just take a hit on these, put it down to experience and replace with four Trojans when we can afford to. Thanks for your helpful response to my questions.

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1 hour ago, Froggy said:

We have a 20 year old Victron that doesn't feature a gel setting, just automatic float and equalize settings. We have no monitoring equipment save the voltmeter built into the control panel. So what happens if you don't 'nurture' the charge on these gel batteries, i'm assuming it just reduces their life? I'm already thinking that we should just take a hit on these, put it down to experience and replace with four Trojans when we can afford to. Thanks for your helpful response to my questions.

If your Victron is not adjustable its unlikely you would have been charging your Trojans to there best ether as they like a bit higher voltage. When you say Voltmeter is that a digital one or just a needle that reads 0-14 volts?

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1 hour ago, Froggy said:

We have a 20 year old Victron that doesn't feature a gel setting, just automatic float and equalize settings

Do you have a user manual? It may have jumpers inside the case to set the different profiles. 

1 hour ago, Froggy said:

We have no monitoring equipment save the voltmeter built into the control panel.

That's as much use as a chocolate fire guard unfortunately. As an absolute minimum you should fit an ammeter - they're a fiver from China on Ebay these days. Couple that with a SmartGauge (assuming it arrives correctly calibrated!) and you'll start to understand what's going on with your batteries.  

1 hour ago, Froggy said:

what happens if you don't 'nurture' the charge on these gel batteries

They die very quickly. Maybe in a month or two. 

15 minutes ago, ditchcrawler said:

If your Victron is not adjustable its unlikely you would have been charging your Trojans to there best ether as they like a bit higher voltage.

This is very true. 

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