Advice sought re. battery replacement

[Froggy]

4 hours ago, ditchcrawler said:

If your Victron is not adjustable its unlikely you would have been charging your Trojans to there best ether as they like a bit higher voltage. When you say Voltmeter is that a digital one or just a needle that reads 0-14 volts?

It's just an analogue dial i'm afraid.

Edited April 19, 2017 by Froggy

[WotEver]

7 minutes ago, Froggy said:

he manual was probably supplied with the boat when new because other manuals are in a ringbinder but not one for the Victron, however I'm guessing there will be something online.

Probably. Got a model number?

[Froggy]

44 minutes ago, WotEver said:

Probably. Got a model number?

Yes, it's an Atlas Combi 12/1500/50

[Froggy]

4 hours ago, WotEver said:

Do you have a user manual? It may have jumpers inside the case to set the different profiles. 

That's as much use as a chocolate fire guard unfortunately. As an absolute minimum you should fit an ammeter - they're a fiver from China on Ebay these days. Couple that with a SmartGauge (assuming it arrives correctly calibrated!) and you'll start to understand what's going on with your batteries.  

They die very quickly. Maybe in a month or two. 

This is very true. 

It sounds like the chocolate fireguard analogy is also applicable to the gel batteries from what you're saying, considering all the tlc they require, it sounds like it was an expensive mistake buying these, i was going to look into buying a third to bring the capacity up to something near the Trojans but don't think I'll bother now. We'll be on a marina again in the winter so if we can keep the batteries going until the end of autumn maybe we can replace with four Trojans next spring. The manual was probably supplied with the boat when new because other manuals are in a ringbinder but not one for the Victron, however I'm guessing there will be something online.

[keith.]

16 minutes ago, Froggy said:

Yes, it's an Atlas Combi 12/1500/50

I think this might be the manual. It suggests that it is adjustable.

 

https://www.victronenergy.com/Manuals/atlas combi/atlas combi uni/Ac10001e.PDF

[WotEver]

9 minutes ago, Froggy said:

Yes, it's an Atlas Combi 12/1500/50

Here's the manual: https://www.victronenergy.com/Manuals/atlas combi/atlas combi uni/Ac10001e.PDF

Charging voltages at default are quite low by modern standards. The Absorption voltage is fixed at 14.25V and float at 13.5V, both of which should be fine for your gels. Do check the battery data sheet though to confirm this. Both of these voltages can be adjusted with internal pots but the guide doesn't say what the range is. It's also not something you should do yourself.

The above voltages are much too low for optimal charging of T105s, so I think you'll be better off sticking with the gels unless you want to get the charger re-calibrated for the higher voltages. 

Get some battery monitoring

[Froggy]

31 minutes ago, keith. said:

I think this might be the manual. It suggests that it is adjustable.

 

https://www.victronenergy.com/Manuals/atlas combi/atlas combi uni/Ac10001e.PDF

Thanks for this. This does seem to be the manual, although it looks as though it's only meant to be adjusted by qualified electricians. We did have an incident over the weekend where i had set the inverter to auto as recommended on the unit and late in the evening the two associated leds were switchng every second or so from auto to on and back again with a clicking sound (at first i thought it was dripping from the prop shaft!). This was rectified by turning the switch from auto to on. It looks as though this particular issue might be rectified with a minor adjustment to one of the potentiometers, so if the issue occurs again i might have a try.

[Froggy]

1 hour ago, WotEver said:

Here's the manual: https://www.victronenergy.com/Manuals/atlas combi/atlas combi uni/Ac10001e.PDF

Charging voltages at default are quite low by modern standards. The Absorption voltage is fixed at 14.25V and float at 13.5V, both of which should be fine for your gels. Do check the battery data sheet though to confirm this. Both of these voltages can be adjusted with internal pots but the guide doesn't say what the range is. It's also not something you should do yourself.

The above voltages are much too low for optimal charging of T105s, so I think you'll be better off sticking with the gels unless you want to get the charger re-calibrated for the higher voltages. 

Get some battery monitoring

It looks like Keith beat you to it with the Manual link by a short hair, so he gets the 'rep' this time. Thanks, however, for all your much appreciated advice on this thread. With regard to the settings on the Victron it is possible of course that they have already been altered for the T-105s since i don't think these were supplied as part of the original fitout (i can possibly check this from the manual on the boat).

The pdf. document might also shed some light on another issue i raised when things started to wander a bit off-topic. I was concerned that an electrician had not been able to trigger the circuit breaker when he applied a short to the 240v circuit with the inverter on and the shoreline disconnected. The manual does seem to suggest (p.17) that the unit has built-in protection against such instances, which would confirm the assertion in the boat manual supplied by JD Narrowboats.

Edited April 19, 2017 by Froggy

[WotEver]

A multimeter on the battery posts when the charger is operating will tell you straight away if the voltages have been tweaked. 

(Keith posted while I was writing my much longer and considered reply)

[WotEver]

28 minutes ago, Froggy said:

We did have an incident over the weekend where i had set the inverter to auto as recommended on the unit and late in the evening the two associated leds were switchng every second or so from auto to on and back again with a clicking sound

You probably only had a very small load switched on at the time. Using 'On' is fine in this instance (it's one of its reasons for being there). 

[WotEver]

26 minutes ago, Froggy said:

I was concerned that an electrician had not been able to trigger the circuit breaker when he applied a short to the 240v ciircuit with the inverter on and the shoreline disconnected.

Me too. I suspect that this unit (being quite old) doesn't have automatic N-E linking when in Inverter mode, which will make your RCD inoperative in this configuration. There's certainly no mention of it in the manual. I suggest you contact Victron to see if this can be retro-fitted. 

[Froggy]

1 hour ago, WotEver said:

A multimeter on the battery posts when the charger is operating will tell you straight away if the voltages have been tweaked. 

(Keith posted while I was writing my much longer and considered reply)

Ok, what should I be looking for with the multimeter because I think I have one onboard?

1 hour ago, WotEver said:

You probably only had a very small load switched on at the time. Using 'On' is fine in this instance (it's one of its reasons for being there). 

Yes, we were about to turn in. My main worry was that if left constantly switching through the night it would harm the unit

52 minutes ago, WotEver said:

Me too. I suspect that this unit (being quite old) doesn't have automatic N-E linking when in Inverter mode, which will make your RCD inoperative in this configuration. There's certainly no mention of it in the manual. I suggest you contact Victron to see if this can be retro-fitted. 

But isn't the short-circuit protection as per page 17 of the manual sufficient? It's not explained in sufficient detail imo but suggests to me that when a short circuit occurs there is some residual current within the circuit, which triggers a transistor or other such switch that brings the voltage down to near zero.

Edited April 19, 2017 by Froggy
Query added to smiley in first response.

[WotEver]

36 minutes ago, Froggy said:

Ok, what should I be looking for with the multimeter because I think I have one onboard?

See what the charging voltage is

if it's 14.25V then it's not been tweaked. If it's 14.8V then it's been tweaked for T105s and is WAY too high for gels. 

39 minutes ago, Froggy said:

But isn't the short-circuit protection as per page 17 of the manual sufficient?

No. That's to protect the inverter. The RCD is to protect YOU. 

[Froggy]

2 hours ago, WotEver said:

See what the charging voltage is

if it's 14.25V then it's not been tweaked. If it's 14.8V then it's been tweaked for T105s and is WAY too high for gels. 

No. That's to protect the inverter. The RCD is to protect YOU. 

Ok, now I understand why the analogue gauge on the panel can't do the job. But I guess I'm missing something with regard to the second point. If a short circuit caused the unit to bring the voltage down to zero or near zero surely it would render the circuit safe?

[WotEver]

18 minutes ago, Froggy said:

Ok, now I understand why the analogue gauge on the panel can't do the job. But I guess I'm missing something with regard to the second point. If a short circuit caused the unit to bring the voltage down to zero or near zero surely it would render the circuit safe?

If you grabbed hold of the live wire it wouldn't be a short circuit but it would sure make you dance. 

[Froggy]

30 minutes ago, WotEver said:

If you grabbed hold of the live wire it wouldn't be a short circuit but it would sure make you dance. 

In which case it's pretty concerning that only 20 years ago such equipment was being fitted to boats without protection for such eventualities. I guess we're going to have to trust that the fitters ensured that all the 240v circuits behind the panels were well protected against earthing on the hull and that our electrical appliances are all safely wired and fused. I'm not sure there's anything else we can do because we certainly can't afford the cost of a new inverter. JD Narrowboats do at least seem to be a pretty well respected company.

[Alan de Enfield]

7 hours ago, Froggy said:

In which case it's pretty concerning that only 20 years ago such equipment was being fitted to boats without protection for such eventualities

20 year ago Diesel was 'the future' hence selling it at below the price of petrol as an encouragement to change over.

Now, Diesel is the dirtiest, biggest 'killer' and Diesel vehicles subject to higher taxes, surcharges and likely 'bans' in the future.

 

Go back a little further to 'lead in paint', lead water pipes, climbing unsecured ladders, etc etc - things change - what was once considered normal practice is now no longer safe.

[Chewbacka]

8 hours ago, Froggy said:

In which case it's pretty concerning that only 20 years ago such equipment was being fitted to boats without protection for such eventualities. I guess we're going to have to trust that the fitters ensured that all the 240v circuits behind the panels were well protected against earthing on the hull and that our electrical appliances are all safely wired and fused. I'm not sure there's anything else we can do because we certainly can't afford the cost of a new inverter. JD Narrowboats do at least seem to be a pretty well respected company.

it's just over 20 years since RCD have become reasonably priced and fitted.  Our house which was built late 1980's only had the kitchen sockets on an RCD, all other sockets were unprotected.  I think the regs now require a new house to have 2 RCD's .  Pleasure boats being a bit behind the times don't have to have any, or for that matter a fire detector or CO alarm.  Of course this doesn't mean you should not fit them yourself.

[WotEver]

24 minutes ago, Chewbacka said:

it's just over 20 years since RCD have become reasonably priced and fitted.  Our house which was built late 1980's only had the kitchen sockets on an RCD, all other sockets were unprotected.  I think the regs now require a new house to have 2 RCD's .  Pleasure boats being a bit behind the times don't have to have any, or for that matter a fire detector or CO alarm.  Of course this doesn't mean you should not fit them yourself.

Our house was built in 1994 and the only RCDs are the ones I fitted for front and rear garden. 

[Chewbacka]

58 minutes ago, WotEver said:

Our house was built in 1994 and the only RCDs are the ones I fitted for front and rear garden. 

There was probably a single socket with a built in RCD as from memory the socket most probably used for the garden was required to have a local RCD, if not the builder was naughty, or possibly you are in Scotland where regs may have been different.

[WotEver]

40 minutes ago, Chewbacka said:

There was probably a single socket with a built in RCD as from memory the socket most probably used for the garden was required to have a local RCD, if not the builder was naughty, or possibly you are in Scotland where regs may have been different.

There was a single double socket outlet in the garage that had a built-in RCD. That garage is now a home cinema (much more use than the junk room it used to be - we could never fit the car in it) and I've fitted an IP67 socket at the front via RCD and an armoured feed to the garden workshop with an RCD at both ends (which is a pain, and I wish I hadn't). 

[ditchcrawler]

I was just having a clear out of old paperwork and found the invoice for my four T105 bought in March 2010 for just over £100

[Froggy]

6 hours ago, Alan de Enfield said:

20 year ago Diesel was 'the future' hence selling it at below the price of petrol as an encouragement to change over.

Now, Diesel is the dirtiest, biggest 'killer' and Diesel vehicles subject to higher taxes, surcharges and likely 'bans' in the future.

 

Go back a little further to 'lead in paint', lead water pipes, climbing unsecured ladders, etc etc - things change - what was once considered normal practice is now no longer safe.

Good points, but how could putting someone at risk of electrocution ever have been considered safe?.....

[Froggy]

4 hours ago, Chewbacka said:

it's just over 20 years since RCD have become reasonably priced and fitted.  Our house which was built late 1980's only had the kitchen sockets on an RCD, all other sockets were unprotected.  I think the regs now require a new house to have 2 RCD's .  Pleasure boats being a bit behind the times don't have to have any, or for that matter a fire detector or CO alarm.  Of course this doesn't mean you should not fit them yourself.

Just to avoid confusion though, our boat has RCDs, the issue is that a short in the mains circuit when powered by the inverter doesn't seem to trigger them.

[rusty69]

3 minutes ago, ditchcrawler said:

I was just having a clear out of old paperwork and found the invoice for my four T105 bought in March 2010 for just over £100

Wow, they've gone up, they're over a hundred quid EACH these days