One Year of Boat Ownership

[Captain Pegg]

It's now one year since I bought Vulpes. It's a boat that I suspect had I have asked the forum's advice prior to purchase many would have said 'run away'. So what have I found one year on?

 

To recap Vulpes was built by CTS in 1968 with 1/4" baseplate and 3/8" sides and a timber cabin. Originally powered by an air-cooled Petter it broke two of those before a new Petter PH2W was fitted in 1975 which remains in the boat to this day. It was overplated below the waterline in 1987 with 6mm on the bottom and 4mm on the sides by the original steel fabricator. Originally built for Derek Turner of Wheaton Aston garage, from nine months of age until 1994 the boat was owned by John Gardiner who was prominent around the canals of the Black Country. He sold it to Rob Cox (designer, wood sculptor and member of Waterways Craft Guild) who completely rebuilt the cabin piece by piece to the original shape in timber between 1994 and 1996 at Norton Canes. The cabin was then skinned in steel by Graham Edgson, fitted out by the owner, painted at Norton Canes and decorated by Dave Moore. This is the condition in which I bought it nearly 20 years later.

 

So did I buy the right boat? In hindsight yes I did but at the time it wasn't my first choice and it certainly didn't choose me. I viewed an ex-working boat I had an eye on for months but discounted that, then had a sale fall through so late in the process it was unreasonable on a 25 year old boat with a back cabin and vintage style engine in an engine room (features I really wanted). So I turned to Vulpes which I had noted for sale a little under the radar. After considering the pros and cons I decided to go for it as I had the funds and it was suitable for my requirements even though it wasn't quite what I had anticipated buying.

 

A pre-sale hull survey had been done two months prior to my viewing so I arranged to get this transferred over prior to completion and only commissioned an internal survey. In this case it was worth it as the boat was essentially a bespoke build and has some unique features.

 

The engine has performed fine but has developed a smoky exhaust and the conclusion of an expert last week was that it needs a bit of TLC having not had any major work for a considerable period of time and so will get some reconditioned fuel lift pumps, injectors and heads shortly. These components are from an engine I had previously agreed I was willing to purchase for spares or even as an eventual replacement.

 

In terms of maintenance my first problem was a leak from the tug deck into the cabin over last winter. The tug deck steelwork was previously untreated and overlaid with two layers of 'Intertread' matting bonded to the deck and each other and sealed around the cants and cabin front. The seals had failed and water was trapped beneath the matting and finding its way underneath the cabin front from the tug deck (remember this is a steel to timber interface). So I had to strip off the matting, seal the bottom of the cabin timberwork, fit a new valance across the cabin front and seal that against the tug deck steelwork then build up the rear corners of the tug deck with epoxy filler to meet the level of the deck drains before painting the tug deck. It now has eight layers of paint but it has still got damaged so that might be an annual repainting job until someone professional does a better job of building up the paint layers.

 

I have also repainted the gunwales, fore deck, bow locker hatch including the club decoration and the front cants. The timber cabin top handrails have been repaired and repainted as has the rear deck. I still have to do the rear cants, swan neck and tunnel bands. I also intend to paint the roof but I won't touch the cabin sides. That needs a professional.

 

The stove chimney leaked so I have recently sealed the roof collar and the internal gap between the flue pipe and the collar with appropriate sealant and rust treated the roof around the collar. Full repaint will follow with the roof in the spring.

 

Next job is to clean out and repaint the stove over the winter.

 

I contacted Dave Moore a year ago asking about reapplying the decoration but I suspect it won't be any surprise to him that other stuff has taken priority. I may get round to this next year.

 

A big moment will be next year when the boat comes out of the water for hull blacking. When I bought it I took the view that I would be able to fund major work say 10 years in to the future but I am not convinced that will be necessary.

 

So after one year what would I say to someone thinking of buying an old boat? Don't be put off by age - condition is the key thing - but do find out the history, buy a reputable builder's boat, and do be prepared for a requirement for small but ongoing maintenance and know that you can either do this yourself or afford to pay someone to do it. I do stuff myself because I would get in trouble if I chose to spend even more money on the boat ahead of the family. It's a similar story for the semi-vintage engine. So actually it's really not that much different from buying a newer boat. The key difference is possibly that I have no expectation of a resale value although I am sure there would be a niche market for such a boat.

 

JP

[Athy]

That makes good reading, thanks for your story. Are you able to post a picture of Vulpes?

 

Our first boat had a Petter PH2. At the time I knew nothing about boat engines, but was soon seduced by the slow chug (if not by the smokiness when cold). Both our subsequent boats have had slow-chug engines, of increasing expensiveness (Rigas Dizelis, then Gardner) - that Petter has a lot to answer for!

[Captain Pegg]

Thank you Athy. You may be the only person here with the capacity and the will to read that many words. I had intended to summarise my year's cruising but figured I had said more than enough. I love the engine and have engaged a well known forum member to explain how it works and teach me how to look after it. I have posted a few photos during the year but here is one taken at 0800 on 27th May as we set off on the BCN 24hr marathon challenge. That's not me at the helm it's another CWDF member.

 

[junior]

Lovely boat and nice story. I love PH2W's.

[The Bearwood Boster]

That's a lovely looking boat ?.

[Rob-M]

A lovely boat that goes well given good depth. Accelerated from that standing start in the photo when called upon for a quick getaway.

[Captain Pegg]

That's a lovely looking boat .

The day before that picture I took one of your boat at Alvechurch.

 

A lovely boat that goes well given good depth. Accelerated from that standing start in the photo when called upon for a quick getaway.

Haha - yes. Once you had worked out which way to turn the speedwheel when Mr Fairhurst of this parish came screaming round the corner about a nanosecond after I snapped that shot and had to make a choice between hitting Vulpes or the island. He chose well.

 

JP

[Little Else]

Vulpes has got a lot of character to say the least. A lovely little boat with a great deal of charm and eccentricity.

[Athy]

Thank you Athy. You may be the only person here with the capacity and the will to read that many words. I had intended to summarise my year's cruising but figured I had said more than enough. I love the engine and have engaged a well known forum member to explain how it works and teach me how to look after it. I have posted a few photos during the year but here is one taken at 0800 on 27th May as we set off on the BCN 24hr marathon challenge. That's not me at the helm it's another CWDF member.

 

Ah yes, that sits just right, and it's the sort of size that I like - about 42' to 45' perhaps?

I wondered about the lack of forward portholes, but I guess the extensively glazed front doors let plenty of light in.

Is that Richard looming in the distance?

[chubby]

I too thought it a very good post with a great deal of worthwhile info . In the next year or so i may well look to change my boat for one with a trad engine room and a nice old chuffy engine . It all depends on how long some studies im doing take , but perhaps within 12 months .

To buy such a boat looks like its going to involve an older boat - not VERY old but a 1980s build perhaps and so info on older boats , tho not historic former working boats is very useful reading for me so thanks for going into such detail

Edited December 5, 2016 by chubby

[Captain Pegg]

Ah yes, that sits just right, and it's the sort of size that I like - about 42' to 45' perhaps?

I wondered about the lack of forward portholes, but I guess the extensively glazed front doors let plenty of light in.

Is that Richard looming in the distance?

Only 35' but in the cabin of 23' 10" there is a semi-vintage engine; bed space for 3 adults or 2 adults and 2 children, a bathroom with a bath, a fully equipped galley, a couple of comfy seats and a dining table and two chairs.

 

The portholes on the opposite side are larger and extend further forward and there is a side hatch. That's the better looking side of the boat. Plenty of light from the front.

 

The boat behind is the Sherborne Wharf trip boat. It carries almost as many people as Tawny Owl.

 

JP

[Athy]

I too thought it a very good post with a great deal of worthwhile info . In the next year or so i may well look to change my boat for one with a trad engine room and a nice old chuffy engine . It all depends on how long some studies im doing take , but perhaps within 12 months .

To buy such a boat looks like its going to involve an older boat - not VERY old but a 1980s build perhaps and so info on older boats , tho not historic former working boats is very useful reading for me so thanks for going into such detail

Well, they are still being built, so it doesn't need to be 1980s - unless your budget constraints won't allow the purchase of anything more recent.

You could be in for 12 months of viewing some very attractive craft. Warning: you'll want about half a dozen of them.

One suggestion: unless you are a mechanically-minded person (which I am not), go for a boat for which spare engine parts are easily available. These would include Gardner, Lister, RN. It's all very well having a boat with a drop-dead gorgeous engine which beats at every second lamp post, but if one day it turns out to have half the only crankshaft of its kind in existence, many tears and much genuflecting to the bank manager may result. This happened to a chap I used to know who bought a boat with a lovely vintage Baudouin engine; one day it went crunch! and he had a very expensive time getting new major components made.

That's one reason that our Trojan has a Gardner.

Only 35'

That's often a sign of a well-proportioned boat: they look longer than they really are. Our boat is a 45-footer but is often mistaken for 50' or (not, thankfully, by CART's licensing department) because of Mel Davis' skill and good eye for design.

[alan_fincher]

One suggestion: unless you are a mechanically-minded person (which I am not), go for a boat for which spare engine parts are easily available. These would include Gardner, Lister, RN. It's all very well having a boat with a drop-dead gorgeous engine which beats at every second lamp post, but if one day it turns out to have half the only crankshaft of its kind in existence, many tears and much genuflecting to the bank manager may result. This happened to a chap I used to know who bought a boat with a lovely vintage Baudouin engine; one day it went crunch! and he had a very expensive time getting new major components made.

That's one reason that our Trojan has a Gardner.

 

 

Even this, of course does not eliminate all the possible issues with an old engine.

 

A well known forum member, but who tends to no longer post, currently has massive problems with a Gardner which I assume they believed to be in very good order when they bought the boat, (within the last year or two).

 

From my understanding the symptoms were not obvious until they manifest themselves severely during one days boating. This stopped them in their tracks, and wthin days the engine was reduced to a kit of parts, but as I understand it the experts have declared that the crankshaft is cracked. I assume, but have not heard it confirmed, that it is a write off.

 

My heart bleeds for the owners, who are a lovely couple.

 

I don't think you can ever be 100%% certain whatever the maker of your old engine.

 

But back on topic Vulpes is a very well propotioned boat - I like it a lot.

[Captain Pegg]

The boat I nearly bought had an RN. I heard different things about the actual availability and cost of spares. That's one difficult aspect of buying second hand. You will gets lots of advice, sorting out what is good advice is the tricky bit.

 

I have access to two and half PH2Ws at the moment. One of those is in the boat and the half is a collection of bits that are in my possession.

 

JP

Edited December 5, 2016 by Captain Pegg

[Athy]

Even this, of course does not eliminate all the possible issues with an old engine.

 

A well known forum member, but who tends to no longer post, currently has massive problems with a Gardner which I assume they believed to be in very good order when they bought the boat, (within the last year or two).

 

From my understanding the symptoms were not obvious until they manifest themselves severely during one days boating. This stopped them in their tracks, and wthin days the engine was reduced to a kit of parts, but as I understand it the experts have declared that the crankshaft is cracked. I assume, but have not heard it confirmed, that it is a write off.

 

My heart bleeds for the owners, who are a lovely couple.

 

I don't think you can ever be 100%% certain whatever the maker of your old engine.

You are, of course, quite right - and I believe you speak from first-hand experience. That's a sad story (and doubtless an expensive one).

In our case, our 2LW was completely rebuilt by Walsh's Engineering before being installed in Trojan, so it's a 1956 engine on the outside and a 2005 engine on the inside. It has not let us down so far (crosses fingers, eyes and legs).

It sounds as if the Captain should be able to get one decent unit out of his collection of engines and parts. I think (though others, such as RLWP, will know better than I do) that PH2 spare parts should still be available - as a fixed-speed engine, it was still in Lister's catalogue until a couple of years ago.

Edited December 5, 2016 by Athy

[alan_fincher]

The boat I nearly bought had an RN. I heard different things about the actual availability and cost of spares. That's one difficult aspect of buying second hand. You will gets lots of advice, sorting out what is good advice is the tricky bit.

 

I'm not that convinced how many complete engines the people who currently hold the RN name are selling, (If any!), but as the last quoted price I heard for a complete engine was circa £20K, I think, that must say something about the price of any official spares available.

 

I do recall something about pistons being about £1,000 (each!), but whether you can source cheaper I don't know.

 

Mind you, from my experience, even Lister HA parts are getting harder to acquire, unless you go for the branded parts that are actually now of Indian manufacture, and some of which have been demonstrated as not at all fit for purpose. That's why we decided to buy another complete engine, (although for very unfortunate reasons outside of anybody's control, we actually still do not have it).

 

Is there any "historic" engine regularly used in narrow boats, where none of the parts are hard to find at a half reasonable cost, I wonder?

[Athy]

Is there any "historic" engine regularly used in narrow boats, where none of the parts are hard to find at a half reasonable cost, I wonder?

I know nothing of Gardner parts prices, as I have only ever bought oil- and fuel-filters for ours. This must be a comment upon the lump's reliability!

So, are you buying another engine as a replacement for your current (or recent) one, or to be cannibalised for parts?

 

Just a thought regarding the Indian-made parts: as these are branded "Lister", and thus presumably sold or at least approved by the company, surely Lister would replace any part which was faulty?

Edited December 5, 2016 by Athy

[Dave_P]

Vulpes is indeed a very pretty boat. The pessimist in me would worry a little about the amount of glass at the front when exploring some of the more overgrown canals, but it must help to keep the cabin bright.

[alan_fincher]

Just a thought regarding the Indian-made parts: as these are branded "Lister", and thus presumably sold or at least approved by the company, surely Lister would replace any part which was faulty?

 

Some of the people selling Indian made parts are long established "Lister approved dealers" - Sleaman and Hawken being one such example.

 

To be clear, there is no great doubt about the quality of some, but there definitely is about the quality of others, (having held in my hand recently a destroyed piston, and more particularly the gudgeon pin that has literally broken in half, after very little use).

 

The problem is that when such a spectacular failure occurs, the damage is likely to extend way beyond the faulty replacement part(s), and even if the supplier will fully accept liability, and replace everything that then needs replacing, the breakdown may have occurred miles from where the work was done, leaving someone with a boat stranded where they need a long tow to get somewhere that can help.

 

This was the case with the recently failed Gardner, which was in the motor of a motor butty pairing, used as trading live-aboards, so a large salvage operation was required to tow two boats to somewhere the owners can manage to survive life until a solution is found to their expensively knackered engine. To be clear, in the case of the Gardner, from the little I have heard, steps missed in a rebuild sound the more likely case of the issue than the use of sub-standard parts, but I may be quite wrong on that point.

[chubby]

For me , the reason i have not yet sought to sell my current boat , a 58ft trad with a japanese digger engine is because of studying and i am absolutely unable to jeopardise my studies by buying now and possibly having problems and unforeseen costs and so it remains a case for now of " window shopping " assessing costs etc .

 

It seems that boat prices are geting higher and its a sellers market as some boats seem pricey compared to thier age . I would most definately be looking at cheaper boats , tho not rock bottom ( to me at least ), so £40000 for example and this appears to mean im going to be looking at older boats as id want the same size as i have now - so 55ft plus .

There are such boats on apolloduck , a nice looking Doug Moore for instance at £35 K but i cant do owt about it for the time being until im done with my studies after which i ll have the time , so i 'll keep window shopping and learning & researching and then i ll pester the forum for advice if i decide to buy such a boat

cheers

[Captain Pegg]

For me , the reason i have not yet sought to sell my current boat , a 58ft trad with a japanese digger engine is because of studying and i am absolutely unable to jeopardise my studies by buying now and possibly having problems and unforeseen costs and so it remains a case for now of " window shopping " assessing costs etc .

It seems that boat prices are geting higher and its a sellers market as some boats seem pricey compared to thier age . I would most definately be looking at cheaper boats , tho not rock bottom ( to me at least ), so £40000 for example and this appears to mean im going to be looking at older boats as id want the same size as i have now - so 55ft plus .

There are such boats on apolloduck , a nice looking Doug Moore for instance at £35 K but i cant do owt about it for the time being until im done with my studies after which i ll have the time , so i 'll keep window shopping and learning & researching and then i ll pester the forum for advice if i decide to buy such a boat

cheers

It probably won't harm to wait a bit as the market is definitely not as advantageous for buyers as it was a year ago. I haven't seen much this last year that would have caught my eye whereas last year there was Sudbury, Ezra, Thorn, Denmark and Vulpes all offering something a bit different from each other in the tug market. Those first four all took a long time to sell. Probably only Caggy this year and personally I thought it was overpriced (notwithstanding I don't know what it sold for) but it sold quickly. The advantage of Vulpes is that it is far more suited to family use than any of those others - and I had to compromise between mine and the families requirements - but that meant foregoing a true engine room and a back cabin. I am thankful I was able to buy when I did.

 

Just remembered Baltic also sold this year but that is a niche boat within a niche. Lovely all the same.

 

JP

[Captain Pegg]

Vulpes has got a lot of character to say the least. A lovely little boat with a great deal of charm and eccentricity.

Thanks. I think you are one of three CWDF members to have a look inside.

 

Eccentric being a literal description of the bathroom sink. ?

Edited December 5, 2016 by Captain Pegg

[alan_fincher]

Just remembered Baltic also sold this year but that is a niche boat within a niche. Lovely all the same.

 

JP

 

I'm not sure what the outcome was with Tycho, but arguably that is even more niche market.

 

Enceladus was a tug style boat that has sold in relatively reent times for a tiny fraction of what a previous owner must have spent on it, and I would have thought was by then a very good deal for someone wanting something with a lot of history still in it, but also a very living space as well.

[Captain Pegg]

I'm not sure what the outcome was with Tycho, but arguably that is even more niche market.

Enceladus was a tug style boat that has sold in relatively reent times for a tiny fraction of what a previous owner must have spent on it, and I would have thought was by then a very good deal for someone wanting something with a lot of history still in it, but also a very living space as well.

I obviously haven't been looking as hard this year! Enceladus passed me by.

 

I'd be a lot more interested in Sickle than Tycho. I think the paint job took value off it compared to when I saw it at the BCLM tug event a few years ago.

 

JP

 

ETA - Enceladus a bit bigger and sold through an establishment I don't associate with 'enthusiast' boats so that may be why I missed it.

Edited December 5, 2016 by Captain Pegg

[alan_fincher]

ETA - Enceladus a bit bigger and sold through an establishment I don't associate with 'enthusiast' boats so that may be why I missed it.

 

When it was still little more than a kit of bits it was the first "historic" we considered.

 

Details here.

 

It wasn't right for us, but has had huge investment, and it's new owner was over the moon with it at Braunston this year.

 

Good to see them re-arise from the (almost) dead!