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Veruca Salt's New/ Second Hand Fridge


cheshire~rose

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We need a fridge for Python's fit out.

 

Ally of this parish suggested we get a nice shiny new Shoreline 12v fridge. Yes it will drain the batteries but I really want the volunteer crew to have the facilities to keep their food (I didn't mention beer) at a reliable temperature, especially during the summer months so Shoreline it is...

 

There has been much discussion about whether one is really needed or not but The Chesterfield Canal is very rural and you can be a distance from any opportunities to buy fresh milk for your tea or some food for dinner. The trip up The Trent from West Stockwith to the main part of the canal network takes a couple of days and I don't feel it is fair on volunteers (who are often retired) to put them in a situation where they have to eat out of tins or out of a pub wherever they are on the canal system.

 

Forum member Tatguy very generously gave us a Vanette oven with Spinflo hob that have been removed from a project he is working on which has saved us a lot of money on buying new items and we are very thankful to him for his generosity:

http://www.canalworld.net/forums/index.php?showtopic=86969&hl=

 

There is an auction at our boat club this weekend and someone has donated a 12v/gas fridge. There is a certain amount of pressure from certain quarters among the crew to bid on this fridge because it will be (very) cheap and as with every fit out the costs keep mounting up for some timber or screws of cables and I am determined to raise the money for Python's fit out without going cap in hand to The Trustees because they have a canal to restore! I know we can't connect it to the gas as the regulations do not allow that for a new fit but those who want me to bid on the fridge suggest we just connect it to the electricity - but these fridges are not very economical when run on electricty and it will eat batteries so fast ..... and batteries cost money too!

 

This is the fridge they want me to buy:

14993433_10154620044514070_3062006283016

 

15036258_10154620044574070_3496908696417

 

Yes the rail on the top door shelf is broken but I am told they can "sort it out" No there is no key for the lock but that doesn't matter

 

But I don't want to buy this fridge even though it is going to be cheap. It is an unknown age and if we create a fit out around it then it goes wrong we have to buy the same size again and so I don't want this fridge. I am all for saving money where we can but I don't believe buying and fitting this fridge is an economy worth making.

 

The crew who are persuading me to buy this fridge have their hearts in the right places because they just want to try and do things as cheaply as possible but I believe this is an economy too far.

 

In true Veruca Salt fashion I want a nice new economical Shoreline fridge and I want it now! (well this winter, not necessarily tomorrow). I have made up my mind but I get the feeling that some of the crew think I am just being a spoiled brat - hence the Veruca Salt comment

 

I need to raise some money for our nice new shiny Shoreline fridge because if I have some money towards the purchase I can set the minds of those wanting me to buy the old fridge at rest.

 

I know various people will have their own discussion on the pro's and con's of new verses second hand and please feel free to share your views with me but I think it unlikely I will change my mind.

 

What I am really hoping for is a few folks who agree with me that we need to buy a new fridge to pop their hands in the pocket and donate a fiver towards it:

 

You can do so by clicking this link:

 

http://www.chesterfield-canal-trust.org.uk/index.php/home/home-353525/view/productdetails/virtuemart_product_id/18/virtuemart_category_id/5

 

Or if you prefer to give cash we will be at Smudges banter in Northampton next weekend (26th)

 

Can you help please?

 

 

 

 

 

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We have a similar fridge on Owl. Yes, it can drain the batteries quickly if kept on all day every day.. When we're out and about we just have the fridge on while the engine is running. It only takes less than an hour for the freezer compartment to be cold enough to have frozen a couple of freezer packs which keep the food at a reasonable temperature until the next day.

 

Not ideal and certainly wouldn't be any good if we were liveaboards but this regime has been OK for the past 20 years!

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We have a similar fridge on Owl. Yes, it can drain the batteries quickly if kept on all day every day.. When we're out and about we just have the fridge on while the engine is running. It only takes less than an hour for the freezer compartment to be cold enough to have frozen a couple of freezer packs which keep the food at a reasonable temperature until the next day.

 

Not ideal and certainly wouldn't be any good if we were liveaboards but this regime has been OK for the past 20 years!

 

I am interested to know why,if the fridge has been in place for 20 years, you do not run it on gas which I am told is the best option. It was explained to me that this type of fridge was designed for caravans and motorhomes and was only ever meant to run on battery power when on the move and switch to gas when static.

 

I too have had years of use of fridges just like the old one and found them very good (in caravans and boats).

 

I hear and understand your regime has been "OK for 20 years" and if it aint broke then why fix it but, if you were faced with a completely empty shell of a cabin to fit out on Owl now would you be fitting that second hand fridge of unknown condition knowing it was impossible to use it on gas or would you be considering buying a new one?

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You have never read Willy Wonka and The Chocolate Factory?

 

Surely it should be Charlie and the Chocolate Factory wink.png

 

I think the Shoreline makes more sense although I understand why others have suggested bidding on the one above.

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I know we can't connect it to the gas as the regulations do not allow that for a new fit.......................

 

I'm sure we have been here before, but in general for most old narrow boats the above statement I still feel sure is not true.

 

If I wanted to (say) fit a fridge like that into Sickle, there is no regulation I am aware of that prevents it.

 

I have something similar here on Flamingo right now.

 

Can you please remind me why you think Python is different?

 

Do you, or will you have an instantaneous water heater, (Morco/Rinnai/Paloma/etc on Python),?

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If money is a problem a 240V fridge and an inverter may be the way to go, it also gives 'mains' power should any volentees have any small 240v stuff they need to use. These gas/electric fridges may use as much or more electric as a 240V fridge and inverter.

 

If you do buy this fridge, then when fitting put it into a 600mm wide hole and put trim round it to hide any big gaps, that way when you do replace it the new fridge will just slot in.


 

I'm sure we have been here before, but in general for most old narrow boats the above statement I still feel sure is not true.

 

If I wanted to (say) fit a fridge like that into Sickle, there is no regulation I am aware of that prevents it.

 

.......................................

I suspect you will not find a gas fitter that would fit this fridge as a new installation.

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I suspect you will not find a gas fitter that would fit this fridge as a new installation.

 

As Python is not a live aboard boat, I'm not aware of anything that says the installation must be by a suitably ticketed GasSafe Engineer.

 

If it were my boat any "competent person" could do it, (I didn't need a qualified engineer to fit my recent Morco, for example), which is why I'm asking CR to remind us why she has been told Python is different.

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As Python is not a live aboard boat, I'm not aware of anything that says the installation must be by a suitably ticketed GasSafe Engineer.

 

If it were my boat any "competent person" could do it, (I didn't need a qualified engineer to fit my recent Morco, for example), which is why I'm asking CR to remind us why she has been told Python is different.

Because it sounds like it is a charity trip boat with 'passengers'.

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Because it sounds like it is a charity trip boat with 'passengers'.

 

Does it?

 

Is that stated in this thread somewhere, or is that a previous explanation.

 

Is there such a thing in any regulation as a "charity boat with passengers"? Presumably they will not be paying for their ride!

 

That's why I have asked CR to clarify(!)

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As Python is not a live aboard boat, I'm not aware of anything that says the installation must be by a suitably ticketed GasSafe Engineer.

 

If it were my boat any "competent person" could do it, (I didn't need a qualified engineer to fit my recent Morco, for example), which is why I'm asking CR to remind us why she has been told Python is different.

 

Don't know - just asking

 

Could it be that it is classed as a 'commercial boat', by carrying people who are not the owners ( the public ?), or because it is owned by a Charity ?

Does it have a standard 'leisure' BSS ?

Does it have a 'leisure' licence ?

Does it have standard 'leisure' insurance ?

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Python does not carry paying passengers and is licensed as a "workboat".

 

Volunteers will be sleeping on board the boat on occasions but as they do not own the boat there is a duty of care on the part of the owners to ensure that electrical and gas installations are safe.

 

Yes she has a Morco instant gas water heater that was fitted many years ago. This will be refitted in it's original place. Although we understand we can get a competant DIYer to fit it (as we have done with the electrical installation) we plan to get a gas safe engineer to fit it for us at the same time he comes to sign off our DIY electrical installation which he has visited to inspect on two occasions through the fit out and offered advice and guidance along the way.

 

Fitting of a gas fridge, even if it were possible to do so, would require an external vent which would be likely to hinder access along the gunwales - the only method of getting from the helm to the hold and cabin on Python and a modern plastic vent would not be an attractive addition to her cabin in my view.

 

While we do not need to conform to RCD standards on Python's fit out (because she is not a new buld boat) we are trying to comply where practical to do so because we believe that by doing so we will have a vessel which is as safe and functional for the crew as possible and it shows we are not just a bunch of gung-ho DIYers trying to do things as cheaply as possible, those involved are enjoying the experience of researching the current regulations and thinking on "best practice" as much as others are enjoying learning to steer a deep drafted boat on a shallow canal. There is a raft of regulation that we are getting to grips with, much of it based around safe working practices which is another entire story.

 

Yes we can probably get away with fitting the gas fridge but we don't actually want to "get away" with anything. If it is deemed to be something that is not safe to be fitted on a new boat then we have to answer some questions about why we would fit it to Python. I know you can apply that same argument to the water heater (and we have) but the crew are working with canal water and collecting litter and debris out of the canal. This is not just a case of a few guys out having a jolly little cruise down a pretty canal. They are in constant contact with contaminated water and litter. In just two weeks we removed 24 tonne bags of vegetation and 10 sacks of litter from the route of the canal. Its a mucky physical job. The danger from infection from not having quicky obtainable hot water to wash before taking a refreshment break is, in my view, considered a greater hazard than that from a properly fitted and maintained gas water heater.

 

We don't need to use gas for a fridge an alternative is available. We looked at the possibility of swapping to a diesel water heater but it requires a tank (which can't be heated from an air cooled engine) and it is not instant like the gas so we would be using a lot of diesel to heat a tank of water. If someone falls in then the shower would be available immediately for them with the Morco.

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Python does not carry paying passengers and is licensed as a "workboat".

 

 

 

I do not believe that the 'paying' part of carrying passengers is the relevant fact.

 

If the boat is used for any non-pleasure, non-private use then it becomes subject to the more severe BSS standards of 2002.

If it carries passengers then it falls under the 2002 regulations.

 

Quite what defines 'passengers' is probably open to debate. (When do a 'couple of mates' become passengers ?)

 

Hire boats, passenger vessels, commercial and business boats

 

Note on the BSS Examination for non-private boats - If a vessel is a hire boat, third-party managed share-owned boat, trip boat, rented residential boat, floating business or some other form of commercial or public vessel, the boat will be examined to the 2002 BSS Standards.

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I am interested to know why,if the fridge has been in place for 20 years, you do not run it on gas which I am told is the best option. It was explained to me that this type of fridge was designed for caravans and motorhomes and was only ever meant to run on battery power when on the move and switch to gas when static.

 

I too have had years of use of fridges just like the old one and found them very good (in caravans and boats).

 

I hear and understand your regime has been "OK for 20 years" and if it aint broke then why fix it but, if you were faced with a completely empty shell of a cabin to fit out on Owl now would you be fitting that second hand fridge of unknown condition knowing it was impossible to use it on gas or would you be considering buying a new one?

 

I can't remember now the exact reasons why we didn't have a gas fridge on Owl. We'd had one on our first boat, but that was over 30 years ago. I think I plumped for an electric fridge because I didn't want one of those hull-side flues which were commonly fitted in those days and which were very susceptible to damage.

 

Your question about what I'd do now if starting from scratch is very relevant. We are going to have a major upgrade on our motorised butty which at present doesn't have a fridge. In the butty we'd would like to improve on the system we have on Owl so we're going to put in a bigger alternator, increase the number of domestic batteries and fit a more modern charger. I'll report back in the summer when the work should all be completed!

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I do not believe that the 'paying' part of carrying passengers is the relevant fact.

 

If the boat is used for any non-pleasure, non-private use then it becomes subject to the more severe BSS standards of 2002.

If it carries passengers then it falls under the 2002 regulations.

 

Quite what defines 'passengers' is probably open to debate. (When do a 'couple of mates' become passengers ?)

 

Hire boats, passenger vessels, commercial and business boats

 

Note on the BSS Examination for non-private boats - If a vessel is a hire boat, third-party managed share-owned boat, trip boat, rented residential boat, floating business or some other form of commercial or public vessel, the boat will be examined to the 2002 BSS Standards.

 

Sorry I was attempting to reply to a mumber of people with one post. It was Chewbacca who suggested it was a charity boat with paying passengers

 

That is who my comment was aimed at and so I felt it was relevant as an answer to that question. Apologies if you found it miselading

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Sorry I was attempting to reply to a mumber of people with one post. It was Chewbacca who suggested it was a charity boat with paying passengers

 

That is who my comment was aimed at and so I felt it was relevant as an answer to that question. Apologies if you found it misleading

 

OK - no problem.

Do you carry passengers, do trips, etc with this boat ?

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OK - no problem.

Do you carry passengers, do trips, etc with this boat ?

 

As you say, how are you defining passengers? Only members of Chesterfield Canal Trust are allowed to crew Python.

 

We do "maintenance trips" manned by members

 

I tend to think of the boat as a company vehicle rather than a private boat or a trip boat and so abide by the regulations relating to such.

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Just as a parallel suggestion, have you approached any shoreline suppliers and asked them if they would like to 'contribute' to your excellent cause...they may be willing to help especially if they are likely to get some good old positive publicity..!

 

No, not yet, it is a good suggestion though and one which I had atthe back of my mind. There are some suppliers who already offer us a decent trade discount anyway.

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Sorry I was attempting to reply to a mumber of people with one post. It was Chewbacca who suggested it was a charity boat with paying passengers

 

That is who my comment was aimed at and so I felt it was relevant as an answer to that question. Apologies if you found it miselading

 

 

Sorry I was attempting to reply to a mumber of people with one post. It was Chewbacca who suggested it was a charity boat with paying passengers

 

That is who my comment was aimed at and so I felt it was relevant as an answer to that question. Apologies if you found it miselading

Sorry I did not make myself clear, but I did not say paying passengers, just passengers. who will take a (work) trip in the boat, so possibly not putting the boat into leisure class and so must then be considered not a private leisure boat.

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