Newbie winterisation queery

[wobbly ollie]

we are about to take delivery of our 2005 50ft narrowboat which will be moored on the K&A at Newbury. The boat is equipped with a morso stove with backboiler for central heating. Over the winter we will be visiting the boat regularly (its only 15 minutes walk from us) and doing a bit of DIY and general interior maintenance and some refurbishing. No doubt we will lite the stove occasionally and even take the boat for a couple of hours at time. My question is around 'winterisation' . A lot of what I've read seems to refer to boats being laid up for the winter months and therefore not totally relevant to our situation. I was wondering whether the addition in the cabin area of a couple of simple oil filled rads left on low 24/7 would suffice in protecting everything? - we are hooked up to 240 power in the marina.

What do you think or am I missing the point and importance of winterisation...?

[Rob-M]

We have sufficient antifreeze in the engine coolant and radiator heating circuit. When we leave the boat over the winter I open all the taps, turn the water off and have a couple of oil rads left on very low so they should only turn on when it is very cold. We tend to visit the boat every few weeks over the winter and stay for a couple of days at a time. Survived the last three winters using this approach.

[Alan de Enfield]

We have tried most options, the most economic (and one that 'works') is the use of 'Green house heaters' in the engine room.

 

The most expensive method was 'oil filled radiators' which 'worked' but was very, very expensive. Basically 2x 1000 watt radiators. They were unable to get the boat temperature high enough to even meet the 'frost-guard' setting and so were on continuously 24/7.

We were away in Asia for the winter and came back to a pretty large electric bill. We had 'charged up the meter' with £50, but according to our neighbours (who kept an eye on things) that didnt last very long and they kept feeding in £10 cards on a regular basis.

Apparently daytime temperatures never got above 4^oC

 

So 2Kw running continuously at £0.135 per Kw was 27p per hour = £6.48 per day = £195 per month.

 

It takes a couple of days of low temperatures to start to freeze up your boat / water systems, so, as you only live 15 minutes away you can easily pop-down and put on some heating overnight if it looks like it is really going to get cold, once you get some heat in, it will last a 'day or two'.

 

It really is a case of trial & error for each individual boat - maybe in your case bank up the stove and leave it running 24/7, just pop down and top it up every day or two. When we had our SF stove 'ticking over' on 24/7 we only used 2 bags (at £10) per week and it is unlikely that you would need to keep it lit for many weeks anyway.

[rusty69]

Antifreeze mixture in the Morso heating circuit. Antifreeze in the engine cooling circuit. Insulate the calorifier (if you have one). Drain the cold water system when you leave each time.

 

If its going to be really cold, and you are concerned pop down the boat and keep the stove on low.

[1agos]

I drain the water system and disconnect the pipes from the pump. I don't know if this is over the top but makes me less anxious when away from the boat over winter.

[mross]

Just check the strength of the antifreeze in engine and heating system. You can get a suitable tester in Halfords, eBay or Amazon. I think temperatures would have to stay below zero all day before you risk a freeze. If the canal has no ice on it then the boat should be OK.

[wobbly ollie]

Crikey Alan thats really helpfull as that 'was' going to be our preferred method. We'll now think again. As everyone is suggesting i thibk the most important thing is the antifreeze check and draining the water system. Thanks everyone for your help so far....

[OldGoat]

See what I and others said here -

http://www.canalworld.net/forums/index.php?showtopic=88246#entry1911353

 

The kennett through Newbury is partly a river and so has some flow - keeping the water slightly warmer than on a canal.

I had two 800W oilfilled radiators set at 5%C and cost little to run as the temperature never got down that cold - even though the air temperature went below freezing often.

Just make sure that the freshwater side isn't restricted by a full tank or taps are closed - then if the worst happens there's somewhere for the ice to go.....

[Geoff Taylor]

Hi, as long as the heating system and engine antifreeze strengths are ok the main concern is the fresh water system, we lag the pump and calorifier and do not fill the water tank any more than 3/4 full. We like to leave our boat ready to go all year round.

 

It may be totally not needed but i leave the sink, wash basin and shower taps on and remove the shower head and blow hard which clears the taps of water thus leaving a good bit of room should it freeze, I did this when a few years ago we had a minus 14 or so and never suffered anything burst.

 

Must add that we had no heating running at all at those temps, the water tank did have a small block of ice in it and there was a little icing in the pipes that ten minutes after lighting the stove cleared (the calorifier is under the fixed double and water pump under the galley sink).

[john6767]

Obviously antifreeze in the engine and central heating. Have the water tank low, and blow as much water out of the pipes as possible. Then we have 2 oil filled rads, one 1000w and one 600w. Not found them expensive with the mild winter last year I don't think they used £50 of electricity. In 2010/11 when it was frozen up from November to probably March we used well over £100 certainly, but to me using the rads means that the boat can be used at any time and it's a 15 min job to winterise again when you get back. Has worked for us so far.

[IDS]

I've never drained the freshwater tank, but do drain freshwater pipes, water filters and calorifier. Have taken pumps home in bad winters. Check engine and CH circuit anti freeze strength with a hydrometer.

[Peter-Bullfinch]

We also use two oil filled radiators. They are small ones with one in the engine room and one in the saloon. They are set on medium but there is a simple thermostat switch (Maplins) midway in the boat set at 6 degrees for the supply to both radiators. In a mild winter this costs around £20 or so and in a harder winter then up to a little over £40. The boat is old with just polystyrene insulation and five single glazed side windows and eight small portholes.

We don't drain off because we use the boat from time to time in winter. The engine and central heating both have the correct level of antifreeze.

One final point. We only connect to shore power via an extension lead and not directly to the boat. We seem to have significantly less hull corrosion than many others I see as they are pulled out. The badly pitted ones often appear to be those continuously connected directly to the marina pontoon power.

[David Mack]

One final point. We only connect to shore power via an extension lead and not directly to the boat. We seem to have significantly less hull corrosion than many others I see as they are pulled out. The badly pitted ones often appear to be those continuously connected directly to the marina pontoon power.

 

And by running a 240v appliance on board without connecting its earth to the boat hull, you are breaching BSS requirements. And maybe invalidating your insurance.

[alias]

No doubt we will lite the stove occasionally and even take the boat for a couple of hours at time.

 

If you are using a cast iron stove only occasionally, start out with small fires to warm it through gently, otherwise water vapour that has been absorbed by the metal can expand and cause it to crack.

[Scholar Gypsy]

I've never used heaters when the boat is unattended: a bit of condensation occasionally.

 

I have a ridiculously elaborate system for draining and pumping out the calorifier, involving eight valves that need to be opened and shut in the right order. But it works.

 

Detail here: .Boat_instructions_v3.11a.pdf

[Dave_P]

We have tried most options, the most economic (and one that 'works') is the use of 'Green house heaters' in the engine room.

 

The most expensive method was 'oil filled radiators' which 'worked' but was very, very expensive. Basically 2x 1000 watt radiators. They were unable to get the boat temperature high enough to even meet the 'frost-guard' setting and so were on continuously 24/7.

We were away in Asia for the winter and came back to a pretty large electric bill. We had 'charged up the meter' with £50, but according to our neighbours (who kept an eye on things) that didnt last very long and they kept feeding in £10 cards on a regular basis.

Apparently daytime temperatures never got above 4^oC

 

So 2Kw running continuously at £0.135 per Kw was 27p per hour = £6.48 per day = £195 per month.

 

It takes a couple of days of low temperatures to start to freeze up your boat / water systems, so, as you only live 15 minutes away you can easily pop-down and put on some heating overnight if it looks like it is really going to get cold, once you get some heat in, it will last a 'day or two'.

 

It really is a case of trial & error for each individual boat - maybe in your case bank up the stove and leave it running 24/7, just pop down and top it up every day or two. When we had our SF stove 'ticking over' on 24/7 we only used 2 bags (at £10) per week and it is unlikely that you would need to keep it lit for many weeks anyway.

2 x 1000w oil filled radiators would happily raise the temperature of my cabin to around 15 degrees above ambient if left permanently on. How cold was it where you were moored that winter if they didn't manage to get above the frost guard setting?

 

More likely there was a problem with the radiators?

 

Edit: thinking more on this, I just can't see how this can be right. Last winter we barely had a frost all winter in Birmingham. Given that a well-insulated narrowboat should retain a little of the day's warmth over winter, the cabin temperature of an unheated boat should have very rarely dropped below freezing and that's the only time a thermostatically controlled radiator should kick in. Certainly that's how mine work (kicking in just above freezing).

 

Makes me wonder how many £10 cards your neighbours actually fed in?

Edited November 6, 2016 by Dave_P

[Alan de Enfield]

2 x 1000w oil filled radiators would happily raise the temperature of my cabin to around 15 degrees above ambient if left permanently on. How cold was it where you were moored that winter if they didn't manage to get above the frost guard setting?

 

More likely there was a problem with the radiators?

 

Edit: thinking more on this, I just can't see how this can be right. Last winter we barely had a frost all winter in Birmingham. Given that a well-insulated narrowboat should retain a little of the day's warmth over winter, the cabin temperature of an unheated boat should have very rarely dropped below freezing and that's the only time a thermostatically controlled radiator should kick in. Certainly that's how mine work (kicking in just above freezing).

 

Makes me wonder how many £10 cards your neighbours actually fed in?

 

It was 3 Winters ago, the daytime temperature did not get above 4^o for almost 4 weeks, and often below that - the night time temperature was 'minus' virtually every night. We were looking at the weather every day (whilst away) and regular Skype calls to keep in touch.

 

Maybe in the 'Softy South', or in 'inner city moorings' it was a bit warmer, but in the 'Tough North countryside ' it was COLD.

[plainsman]

I have put diluted antifreeze down the waste traps (sink shower etc) and run shower emptying pump. Have just thought what should be done about the WC macerator as this will have liquid in it as will the pipe from WC to holding tank? Any views?

[BD3Bill]

Don't forget to leave your water tank half full ( or half empty, depends on you ) or empty. If you have an isolator tap between the tank & pump turn it off, if you don't, fit one ! A full tank will burst if it freezes...

 

 

ETA add & correct

Edited November 6, 2016 by BD3Bill

[Sea Dog]

I have put diluted antifreeze down the waste traps (sink shower etc) and run shower emptying pump. Have just thought what should be done about the WC macerator as this will have liquid in it as will the pipe from WC to holding tank? Any views?

Not engine antifreeze, eh, cos that's really toxic to aquatic life. I'm not convinced it's necessary anyway, certainly the drains haven't been an issue for me.

 

If you pop a max-min thermometer in the areas your worried about, you might be surprised at the temperatures you see. For example, even in the coldest weather my trad stern engine hole will rarely go below freezing since its mostly below the waterline which is warmer than the outside air when temperatures plummet. The space above it (control room?) often does. My engine space, control room, calorifier cupboard and saloon are all monitored by electronic inside/outside max-min thermometers and it's given me confidence that my winterising regime is commensurate with the temperatures I've seen.

 

I don't fully winterise my boat as we use it on and off all year round, often at short notice. So I do what some others have said with taps open etc and keep the water tank low (I like to be below 50%) so there's room for ice to expand but again it's then mostly underwater too as is the majority of my plastic pipework - and the shower gulper pump. Some folk drain the calorifier and, whilst I don't, I fitted a small tube heater on a thermostat set to cut in below 2c in that space last winter. The calorifier was OK left full (but depressurised with hot taps open) without a heater for the previous 7 winters though, so I'm not sure why I bothered!

 

With the macerator I press 'empty' a couple of times to vacuum out the pipework and whatever is left in there has never caused me an issue. The holding tank, also below the waterline, I treat like the fw tank and keep below 50%.

 

Several kilowatts of heating in the boat will certainly do the trick and provide peace of mind although at quite some cost; draining everything down completely removes the risk at the expense of faff and is OK if you do it just once, but a bit of a nuisance if you're using your boat fairly often; or, you mitigate the issues as best you can and take your chances for free. I do the last one, but if it ever goes wrong...!

[ditchcrawler]

I've never used heaters when the boat is unattended: a bit of condensation occasionally.

 

I have a ridiculously elaborate system for draining and pumping out the calorifier, involving eight valves that need to be opened and shut in the right order. But it works.

 

Detail here: .Boat_instructions_v3.11a.pdf

I have 2, one on the tank and one to the shower drain pump, I open the strainer before the pump to let air in.

[Jonkx]

Hi, I'm asking newbie question here, having spent a couple of hours searching, as about to have my first winter owning a boat, not living aboard, and want to learn how to winterise...

So, when you drain the central heating system radiators, does this drain the hot water tank and/or calorifier? I've read different views on whether to drain the calorifier or not, it appears some don't bother and just drain the radiators, run the taps until empty and leave open, after switching off water pump and having drained cold water tank.

And, if you drain the calorifier, is it still okay to run the engine, as (stupid question ahead) isn't it connected to the engine coolant system?

Thanks in advance for helping someone new to this. 

[ditchcrawler]

3 minutes ago, Jonkx said:

Hi, I'm asking newbie question here, having spent a couple of hours searching, as about to have my first winter owning a boat, not living aboard, and want to learn how to winterise...

So, when you drain the central heating system radiators, does this drain the hot water tank and/or calorifier? I've read different views on whether to drain the calorifier or not, it appears some don't bother and just drain the radiators, run the taps until empty and leave open, after switching off water pump and having drained cold water tank.

And, if you drain the calorifier, is it still okay to run the engine, as (stupid question ahead) isn't it connected to the engine coolant system?

Thanks in advance for helping someone new to this. 

I don't drain the radiators, mine contain antifreeze, I do drain the calorifier, pump and all pipe work to the best of my ability. I leave the cold water storage tank half empty. 

[Jonkx]

11 minutes ago, ditchcrawler said:

I don't drain the radiators, mine contain antifreeze, I do drain the calorifier, pump and all pipe work to the best of my ability. I leave the cold water storage tank half empty. 

How would I know if the radiators contain antifreeze? Are they normally on a separate system to the hot water? 

Not sure how I'd drain the calorifier, which may be the next question... 

[philjw]

7 minutes ago, ditchcrawler said:

And, if you drain the calorifier, is it still okay to run the engine, as (stupid question ahead) isn't it connected to the engine coolant system?

The water which you will drain from the calorifier is not the same fluid that circulates around the engine. That runs through a closed coil in the calorifier which is filled with the water that you use for washing etc.  It is the domestic water which is drained. The engine coolant is protected by anti freeze.  You may see advice which suggests that a coil can be damaged mechanically within a drained calorifier having no support from the domestic water subject to more expansion without the cooling that the domestic water provides. I have not found this to be an issue.