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licence terms and conditions ?

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The 62 TA is statute though, and if it says CRT can impose conditions on facilities then there must be a document listing them, that would be a contract would it not, presumably the licence applicant must agree to it ?

 

As MtB has succinctly and accurately observed in #7: if CaRT really thought they were genuinely able to impose T&C’s as a condition of issue, no ‘agreement’ would be demanded; “they would just list them as mandatory conditions attached to the issue of a licence.”.

 

There ARE mandatory conditions of use of the waterways by boats, and these are enforceable regardless of whether you agree to them or not. They apply independently of whether you have a ‘relevant consent’ or not – indeed, having a licence to be on the canals is itself one of the relatively new legal conditions of use of the canals, as mandated under the most recent byelaw.

 

As Tony has noted earlier, the subject has been [almost] exhaustively traversed in previous topics, as per: ‘general terms and conditions’ and ‘CRT terms and conditions’. As some examples: -

 

http://www.canalworld.net/forums/index.php?showtopic=84932&page=10#entry1826996

 

http://www.canalworld.net/forums/index.php?showtopic=84932&page=16#entry1836109

 

http://www.canalworld.net/forums/index.php?showtopic=84932&page=16#entry1835572

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The question I have now is am I entitled to decline to agree to the terms and conditions document when I renew my licence ?

It may be that I am wrong, but it seems to me that this question has been asked before, several times. The replies have been something along the lines of yes you can, but why should you, other than to wind up the one organisation that controls and could limit your chosen recreation activity?

  • Greenie 1

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It may be that I am wrong, but it seems to me that this question has been asked before, several times. The replies have been something along the lines of yes you can, but why should you, other than to wind up the one organisation that controls and could limit your chosen recreation activity?

I have run out of Greenies so have a virtual one. It never fails to amaze me how many boaters seem hell bent on 1) finding loopholes in the law/regulations to allow them to do what they want. 2) Deliberately try to undermine perfectly reasonable T & Cs which ultimately work to the benefit of the majority of boaters.

 

Life is too short.

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It may be that I am wrong, but it seems to me that this question has been asked before, several times. The replies have been something along the lines of yes you can, but why should you, other than to wind up the one organisation that controls and could limit your chosen recreation activity?

Its not recreation, I live on my boat, I have no other home, and it appears I have signed up to a false contract, and when I ask CRT to explain it they have not told the truth, unless their legal department is totally incompetent, and doesn't know the law, in which case they should be sacked.

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Having lived on various boats over a period of about 20 years, it never once occurred to me to worry about the Ts and Cs employed by BW/CRT. I just got on with life, including cruising, partying, trying to navigate up every side arm of the system that presented itself to me, plus lots of other stuff that isn't sensible to do or talk about here!

So it mystifies me as to why you are taking time to nit pick.

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I wonder how many people read the T&Cs when "upgrading" their computers to Windows 10? There are plenty of things which people would rather not agree to, but if when it asks you whether you agree to the T&Cs, if you say "no" it reverts to where it was before. I doubt many people would get far with Microsoft if they wanted their software but didn't agree to the T&Cs.

 

C&RT's T&Cs are not unreasonable to the majority of boaters, but only seems to concern people who think rules shouldn't apply to them, usually to the detriment of other boaters.

  • Greenie 2

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I have run out of Greenies so have a virtual one. It never fails to amaze me how many boaters seem hell bent on 1) finding loopholes in the law/regulations to allow them to do what they want. 2) Deliberately try to undermine perfectly reasonable T & Cs which ultimately work to the benefit of the majority of boaters.

 

Life is too short.

How can terms and conditions be perfectly reasonable if they are not based on correct law, or even enforceable ? You are then choosing to ignore the law when it suits you, and the terms are in your favour, which is basically just hoping the terms wont change against you. If they are as you say perfectly reasonable they can have a sound legal basis.

I wonder how many people read the T&Cs when "upgrading" their computers to Windows 10? There are plenty of things which people would rather not agree to, but if when it asks you whether you agree to the T&Cs, if you say "no" it reverts to where it was before. I doubt many people would get far with Microsoft if they wanted their software but didn't agree to the T&Cs.

 

C&RT's T&Cs are not unreasonable to the majority of boaters, but only seems to concern people who think rules shouldn't apply to them, usually to the detriment of other boaters.

Do you think they are enforceable then ? What "rules" are you talking about ? Surely unenforceable rules are just voluntary ?

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How can terms and conditions be perfectly reasonable if they are not based on correct law, or even enforceable ?

In a simple world where everybody isn't trying to get one over on the people issuing the T & Cs you read them. Think either nowt wrong with those perfectly OK by me and sign or you don't like part and don't sign.

 

Many rules which people agree to in various walks of life e.g. dress codes in various situations aren't based in law or possibly not enforceable. You aren't ignoring any law you are merely agreeing to something which hasn't (yet) been encoded in a law. You surely aren't suggesting that every T & C you ever agree to has a law backing every single point and detail are you?

 

Which part of the T & Cs is unreasonable (I had better qualify that - to a reasonable person wanting the canal system to run smoothly and not looking for loop holes or nit picking)?

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Please go ahead and do or say whatever you want about the Ts and Cs, I for one am going to sit this out and watch with amusement and amazement from the sidelines.

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The question I have now is am I entitled to decline to agree to the terms and conditions document when I renew my licence ?

Assuming you are entitled so to do, the issue now revolves around what steps you plan to take should CRT refuse you a licence when you decline to agree.

 

Is this something you actually plan to do? If so, like others I shall watch with interest. When is your licence due for renewal?

 

 

(Edit to remove strange quoting of my own post, achieved when posting from my fone!)

Edited by Mike the Boilerman

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Surely unenforceable rules are just voluntary ?

 

But what does that have to do with whether the rule is a reasonable one or not?

 

I have had a boater tell me recently how they had been "moved on" by an enforcement officer after staying for several days on a visitor mooring which was signed with a 48hr limit and, moreover, how the EO doing this was acting "illegally", because nothing other than a 14 day limit can be enforced through the courts. Needless to say, rather than stand his ground and go to court to test this contention, the boater had moved when told to.

 

I would like to think that despite his bar-room lawyer routine and statements about what was being done to him "illegally", this was because the boater saw the underlying reasonableness of the 48hr "rule", given the location of that particular visitor mooring. In any event, the "enforcement" of the rule ensured that when I reached to spot in question, there was space for me to moor for a couple of nights and enjoy a short, but nice stay.

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This thread is awfully similar to one started by a vegetable sounding miss named boat person.

Edited by Ray T

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The question I have now is am I entitled to decline to agree to the terms and conditions document when I renew my licence ?

 

Yes, you are fully entitled to refuse to tick the “I agree” box – but why bother making an issue out of it? You would have to make some sort of issue out of it, because the application form does not allow of any alternative. Some, such as Allan, have added on disclaimers, and others I believe, have simply refused [or had the lack of ticked box overlooked]. It would flag you up for special attention however, and you need to ask why you would go to that trouble.

 

Ticking the box does not, regardless of what CaRT and others here tell you, create a contract of any sort, let alone an enforceable one. Demanding agreement as a condition of issuing a licence when you have fulfilled the statutory pre-requirements, is illegal. The supposed “contract” being illegal, it is unenforceable, so who cares whether you tick the box or not? It does not bind you to the terms of any so-called ‘contract’.

 

Conversely, not signing does not relieve you from the responsibility to observe such conditions of use as are enshrined within the Statutes and Byelaws, so you are not evading liability to those conditions by refusing to tick the box. You will remain subject to the appropriate penalty for any failure to obey the relevant laws governing use of the waterways.

 

So far as the rest of the T&C’s are concerned, these - as was recognised by BW in years past – are mostly advisory guidance for the practical benefit of all users; good practice, in other words, showing thought for others.

 

Refusing to tick the box with those in mind achieves nothing; as always, being unenforceable guidelines they will only effectively guide those who do care to boat responsibly.

 

It is basically a non-issue unless and until CaRT decide to rely on the “contract” nonsense as a basis for revoking your licence over any breach. There being no empowerment for CaRT to revoke a licence for any reason other than those listed in the 1995 Act, the sanctions lawfully available to them are those, only, that are legislated for in respect of any breaches.

 

It is only at the point of losing your licence that you would need to make an issue out of it, supposing that you were being targeted for breach of any non-mandatory advice. Whether you agreed to the T&C’s or not should have no legal effect whatsoever over the outcome of any such dispute.

 

Equally, if you were guilty of a breach of any byelaws, you would be liable for heavy fines and a criminal record - and you would have to decide then, whether you preferred to move off CaRT waters, or take a stand asserting your right to the licence, and being prepared to take the proper legal consequences.

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It may be that I am wrong, but it seems to me that this question has been asked before, several times. The replies have been something along the lines of yes you can, but why should you, other than to wind up the one organisation that controls and could limit your chosen recreation activity?

I took that approach but it seemed that he doesn't have an issue with any particular term, and he is merely using his spare time to find out how things work, in a learning kind of way....

 

However, a bit after your post, he suggests that he is aggrieved at having to sign something that isn't really a contract and isn't enforceable, so I remain lost as to his motives.

 

Anyway, he had a nice week boating last week, and this week it looks like he's going to consider whether to tick a box when it comes to licence renewal time.

 

He definitely doesn't have to tick the box, so it will be interesting to see what happens if he doesn't.

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I took that approach but it seemed that he doesn't have an issue with any particular term, and he is merely using his spare time to find out how things work, in a learning kind of way....

 

However, a bit after your post, he suggests that he is aggrieved at having to sign something that isn't really a contract and isn't enforceable, so I remain lost as to his motives.

 

Anyway, he had a nice week boating last week, and this week it looks like he's going to consider whether to tick a box when it comes to licence renewal time.

 

He definitely doesn't have to tick the box, so it will be interesting to see what happens if he doesn't.

 

 

I predict 'no licence' will be the result.

 

The OP will then have to decide whether to invest hours of time, weeks of delay and possibly a hefty wedge of dosh in forcing CRT to issue a licence, or to just tick the box and get the licence.

 

I'll be most interested should he choose the former. A LOT of boaters have wondered the same but like me, usually seem to take the pragmatic path. I've not heard of anyone point blank refusing to tick the box yet, and pursue CRT for their licence.

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If you just tick the box you haven't been clever and got one over on CRT, you have then put yourself in the position of willingly agreeing to the contract, if you later claim you knew it was junk, the question will be "well why did you sign it then " ?

 

CRT has already started to use the contract to bypass the legislation, and you will then have helped them do it. I won't be helping them do that.

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This thread is awfully similar to one started by a vegetable sounding miss named boat person.

 

Oh dear - so it is. Well spotted

 

Richard

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Do "normal" boaters give a toss as to the T&C? So long as there isn't a T&C that says my boat h to be painted purple I don't.

I just get on with my boating or not as the case may be and worry about more important things.....

Over this week doing multiple upgrades to windows 10 I have agreed to multiple T&C none of which affect me in the slightest.

I really feel that some on here really need to grow up and stop being so paranoid about things that really don't matter one jot.

Edited by Loddon
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If you just tick the box you haven't been clever and got one over on CRT, you have then put yourself in the position of willingly agreeing to the contract, if you later claim you knew it was junk, the question will be "well why did you sign it then " ?

CRT has already started to use the contract to bypass the legislation, and you will then have helped them do it. I won't be helping them do that.

Don't sign and then come back and tell us what happens.

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If you just tick the box you haven't been clever and got one over on CRT, you have then put yourself in the position of willingly agreeing to the contract, if you later claim you knew it was junk, the question will be "well why did you sign it then " ?

 

CRT has already started to use the contract to bypass the legislation, and you will then have helped them do it. I won't be helping them do that.

 

You really should research contract law. I have dealt with this over and over again. Ticking the box is pragmatism; it has nothing to do with being clever or putting one over on CaRT, nor does doing this help CaRT to bypass the legislation.

 

If you are given no choice in whether to tick the box or not [and you are not given the choice, if you wish to get the licence] then the “agreement” is involuntary. Such conditions could not give rise to an enforceable contract even if in other circumstances it was legal. Burnett v BWB [1973] 2 All ER 631

 

It is, however, illegal for CaRT to withhold the licence unless you agree to the T&C’s, so again, there is no enforceable contract – even if you DID sign up willingly. Your willing tick of the box has no effect at all, one way or another. As said before, you are liable to the statutes and byelaws whether you agree to them or not, whereas the made up elements of the T&C’s cannot be enforced as a matter of contract anymore than they can be enforced in any other way.

 

If there exists no statutory power to refuse/revoke the licence for breach of T&C’s [and nobody disputes that that is the case], then appealing to contract law [as CaRT are doing] will not avail them, no matter that 30 thousand plus boaters tick the relevant box each year.

 

To quote from myself on previous reviews of the subject, referencing the judgment of the House of Lords in Attorney-General -v- Wilts United Dairies Ltd; CA 1921

 

Handing down judgment, Lord Justice Atkin stated clearly, in response to this argument: “It makes no difference that the obligation to pay the money is expressed in the form of an agreement. It was illegal for the Food Controller to require such an agreement as a condition of any licence. It was illegal for him to enter into such an agreement. The agreement itself is not enforceable against the other contracting party . . .”

 

I can’t put it better – it is illegal for the Trust to require an agreement to the T&C’s as a condition of any pleasure boat licence. It is illegal for them to enter into such an agreement. Contrary to their press-releases therefore, agreement to the T&C’s is not enforceable against the other contracting party.

 

The time limits are generally sensible and good guidelines for boaters to follow, and they should be followed. They should be followed because they show consideration for the rest of us, not because they are enforceable law.”

 

See also –

 

https://www.google.com/url?q=http://www.canalworld.net/forums/index.php%3Fshowtopic%3D56277%26page%3D4&sa=U&ved=0ahUKEwjCxLCWk57OAhVEjSwKHVqjACEQFggEMAA&client=internal-uds-cse&usg=AFQjCNHTow4HP_QXfbvmp-BDeY25fBnRHQ

 

https://www.google.com/url?q=http://www.canalworld.net/forums/index.php%3Fshowtopic%3D81383%26page%3D4&sa=U&ved=0ahUKEwjCxLCWk57OAhVEjSwKHVqjACEQFggGMAE&client=internal-uds-cse&usg=AFQjCNF4_Ju_eyX6TxGABBk5_LE1rAoxng

 

https://www.google.com/url?q=http://www.canalworld.net/forums/index.php%3Fshowtopic%3D74596%26page%3D5&sa=U&ved=0ahUKEwjvg_eblJ7OAhUICMAKHSMWAKUQFggNMAQ&client=internal-uds-cse&usg=AFQjCNFdJslzdalWoWj43bLPyE1w9Chw6Q

 

https://www.google.com/url?q=http://www.canalworld.net/forums/index.php%3Fshowtopic%3D76872%26page%3D11&sa=U&ved=0ahUKEwjvg_eblJ7OAhUICMAKHSMWAKUQFggPMAU&client=internal-uds-cse&usg=AFQjCNG3y-OUL-RMaxLCOk9MmWX0_b4Wnw

 

https://www.google.com/url?q=http://www.canalworld.net/forums/index.php%3Fshowtopic%3D79066%26page%3D9&sa=U&ved=0ahUKEwiwuK3LlZ7OAhWKJ5oKHUnfAvwQFggTMAc&client=internal-uds-cse&usg=AFQjCNGcVwilK0Vctui3uldS-JaVEodspA

 

  • Greenie 2

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You really should research contract law. I have dealt with this over and over again. Ticking the box is pragmatism; it has nothing to do with being clever or putting one over on CaRT, nor does doing this help CaRT to bypass the legislation.

 

If you are given no choice in whether to tick the box or not [and you are not given the choice, if you wish to get the licence] then the “agreement” is involuntary. Such conditions could not give rise to an enforceable contract even if in other circumstances it was legal. Burnett v BWB [1973] 2 All ER 631

 

It is, however, illegal for CaRT to withhold the licence unless you agree to the T&C’s, so again, there is no enforceable contract – even if you DID sign up willingly. Your willing tick of the box has no effect at all, one way or another. As said before, you are liable to the statutes and byelaws whether you agree to them or not, whereas the made up elements of the T&C’s cannot be enforced as a matter of contract anymore than they can be enforced in any other way.

 

If there exists no statutory power to refuse/revoke the licence for breach of T&C’s [and nobody disputes that that is the case], then appealing to contract law [as CaRT are doing] will not avail them, no matter that 30 thousand plus boaters tick the relevant box each year.

 

To quote from myself on previous reviews of the subject, referencing the judgment of the House of Lords in Attorney-General -v- Wilts United Dairies Ltd; CA 1921

 

Handing down judgment, Lord Justice Atkin stated clearly, in response to this argument: “It makes no difference that the obligation to pay the money is expressed in the form of an agreement. It was illegal for the Food Controller to require such an agreement as a condition of any licence. It was illegal for him to enter into such an agreement. The agreement itself is not enforceable against the other contracting party . . .”

 

I can’t put it better – it is illegal for the Trust to require an agreement to the T&C’s as a condition of any pleasure boat licence. It is illegal for them to enter into such an agreement. Contrary to their press-releases therefore, agreement to the T&C’s is not enforceable against the other contracting party.

 

The time limits are generally sensible and good guidelines for boaters to follow, and they should be followed. They should be followed because they show consideration for the rest of us, not because they are enforceable law.”

 

See also –

 

https://www.google.com/url?q=http://www.canalworld.net/forums/index.php%3Fshowtopic%3D56277%26page%3D4&sa=U&ved=0ahUKEwjCxLCWk57OAhVEjSwKHVqjACEQFggEMAA&client=internal-uds-cse&usg=AFQjCNHTow4HP_QXfbvmp-BDeY25fBnRHQ

 

https://www.google.com/url?q=http://www.canalworld.net/forums/index.php%3Fshowtopic%3D81383%26page%3D4&sa=U&ved=0ahUKEwjCxLCWk57OAhVEjSwKHVqjACEQFggGMAE&client=internal-uds-cse&usg=AFQjCNF4_Ju_eyX6TxGABBk5_LE1rAoxng

 

https://www.google.com/url?q=http://www.canalworld.net/forums/index.php%3Fshowtopic%3D74596%26page%3D5&sa=U&ved=0ahUKEwjvg_eblJ7OAhUICMAKHSMWAKUQFggNMAQ&client=internal-uds-cse&usg=AFQjCNFdJslzdalWoWj43bLPyE1w9Chw6Q

 

https://www.google.com/url?q=http://www.canalworld.net/forums/index.php%3Fshowtopic%3D76872%26page%3D11&sa=U&ved=0ahUKEwjvg_eblJ7OAhUICMAKHSMWAKUQFggPMAU&client=internal-uds-cse&usg=AFQjCNG3y-OUL-RMaxLCOk9MmWX0_b4Wnw

 

https://www.google.com/url?q=http://www.canalworld.net/forums/index.php%3Fshowtopic%3D79066%26page%3D9&sa=U&ved=0ahUKEwiwuK3LlZ7OAhWKJ5oKHUnfAvwQFggTMAc&client=internal-uds-cse&usg=AFQjCNGcVwilK0Vctui3uldS-JaVEodspA

 

I have to agree with Nigel on this. If you feel strongly about the issue then add the NABO caveat suggested by its legal advisers -

 

Agreement to the licence terms and conditions does not absolve either party from complying with any relevant law or Act of Parliament governing the canals and rivers administered by the Trust

 

It does not give grounds for an application refusal but will register that the agreement is involuntary.

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I have to agree with Nigel on this. If you feel strongly about the issue then add the NABO caveat suggested by its legal advisers -

 

It does not give grounds for an application refusal but will register that the agreement is involuntary.

I am interested Allan - how do you add the caveat? There appears no room on the official application form, so do you staple an extra page to it, or do you write a cover note?

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I am interested Allan - how do you add the caveat? There appears no room on the official application form, so do you staple an extra page to it, or do you write a cover note?

I moor at a cruising club site which has been established for over 50 years. The club acts as an agent for CaRT regarding licencing of boats and it is a requirement of mooring that you apply for a licence via the club (they get a small commission).

I just took the CaRT supplied application form and completed it with a 'see extra page' ...

 

Edited by Allan(nb Albert)

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I moor at a cruising club site which has been established for over 50 years. The club acts as an agent for CaRT regarding licencing of boats and it is a requirement of mooring that you apply for a licence via the club (they get a small commission).

I just took the CaRT supplied application form and completed it with a 'see extra page' ...

 

That is a curious situation. One has to wonder whether the club actually does pass on the form complete with the extra page.

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