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Let me tell you a BMC story .....


HappyBunny

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Not been on here for a while, like a lot of folk i found some of the negativity tiresome ... but thought I would drop in and tell you a story on this wild and windy afternoon, and hopefully get some input from the engineers on here

 

So, I finally decided to replace my knackered old BMC 1.5, with a reconditioned one, with a warranty, from a well known company. What could possibly go wrong.....

 

The engine was fitted, and had major timing problems so after a bit of argy bargy, the suppliers agreed to replace it with another unit, to enable me to get underway ... all good. The replacement was fitted by one of their engineers, started and ran ... it was a bit noisier than my old engine, but no knocks or smoke.

 

Next day I decided to get moving and it wouldn't start. Turned over lumpily, tried to fire, puffs of white smoke but just faded and died. The suppliers sent an engineer, diagnosed some residual air in diesel system, bled it, finally got it going ... and off I went.

 

Next day, checked oil and water, topped both up ... about 1/2 litre of oil .... again it wouldn't start, same as before. Called suppliers, who told me I couldn't keep calling every time I couldn't start my engine and that I should join RCR. They finally agreed to send engineer, if I agreed to pay if it was not a problem with the engine, and same as before ... diagnosed air in system, bled through, checked for leaks, got her started ... and I went on my way. The engine vibrates more than I am used to and is noisy, no knocks, just sounds like a doggy old BMC, no smoke. Stopped a couple of times, and started fine when warm.

 

Next day, checked oil ... nothing at all showing on dipstick, no sign of oil in engine bay .... engineer is sent, checks it over, tops up oil and eventually gets it running so that I can charge batteries etc and says I'll probably be ok to cruise and someone will be in touch. I stay put. the company get in touch and say it is not unusual for a new engine to get "gunked up" and this causes piston rings to stick and they would come and put some oil treatment in. I asked if the term "gunked up" was a technical term as I had not come across it in the context of a reconditioned engine.

 

Another engineer comes out, does compression test, which he says is fine, fixes a few alleged leaks in my fuel system, removes bell housing and .... hey presto, there is the missing oil. He diagnoses that the engine has overheated, and melted the crank seal. There was nothing to suggest it had overheated, water in header tank fine, temp gauge steady .... he points out a slight kink in one of my pipes, which has allegedly been there for ages as they don't bend easily and this is the cause of the overheating luckily I have photos of offending pipe, without twists, prior to the fitting of the second engine

 

The company then decided they need to investigate all "environmental factors" that could causing these issues. So next, there must be a problem with my gearbox, PRM160, They come and remove it, scratch their heads, put it back, go through everything possible, including my fuel system .... and find a possible breach in the injector pump gasket ... it's not unusual for them to "work loose" apparently after an engine has been bench tested .... but surely all the oil would be in my engine bay if this was the case ... apparently not. What about the oil in the bell housing? ... gearbox overfilled (it wasn't)

 

So, it all went back together, they eventually got her to fire up, it vibrated and juddered to such an extent that stuff was falling off shelves, there was some black smoke .... then it settled down, a bit ... problem solved, apparently air in the system can cause excessive vibration on start up ... I can now continue my journey i am told

 

Next day, wouldn't start ... same as before ... called company ... must be a fuel leak somewhere in my system letting air in over night. There is an engineer currently replacing all my diesel pipes as I type this. I have suggested that perhaps the problem lies in the engine, but they refuse to consider this until all "environmental factors" are eliminated. I asked if they could arrange a tow to enable me to fill up with water, empty loo and charge batterys ... no, let the engineer sort out my dodgy fuel system first

 

So, here I am, in Oswaldtwistle, on the L&L, in the snow, low on water and coal, have had no power or hot water for weeks, and indeed no income as I have been unable to trade, on the friday before a bank holiday weekend feeling as if I have slipped into some Kafka-esque nightmare. I have not discussed this publicly till now, and been as reasonable as i can be BUT .... i have omitted some details, like their failure to supply a copy of the warranty in writing until yesterday ....

 

Now, I'm no engineer ... and there may well be a leak in my diesel system, my gearbox may have dropped some oil into the bell housing, all the engine oil may have been lost through the injector pump gasket ... but could there may be a problem elsewhere, maybe with the crankshaft? it seems to me that this would explain most of the symptoms ... and would only have manifested when the engine was first put under load by the engineer after fitting

 

Any thoughts? ... I'm not looking for sympathy, and not naming and shaming at this point, as the company are still trying to resolve the problem .... just looking for some light entertainment and genuinely trying to get my head round this situation and understand what is going on ... also concerned that this engine was run without oil for some time. The oil pressure gauge was left off when it was fitted as it was "missing a splitter" ... I was told it would be ok to move, as it was a new engine, but to get it sorted at next boat yard ... I haven't got there yet ...

 

and if anyone is heading west on the L&L and could offer a tow to rishton / water / drop me some coal ?

or suggest boat yard between Oswaldtwistle and Wigan that might come and tow me ...

 

cheers cheers.gif bunny

 

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Not been on here for a while, like a lot of folk i found some of the negativity tiresome ... but thought I would drop in and tell you a story on this wild and windy afternoon, and hopefully get some input from the engineers on here

 

So, I finally decided to replace my knackered old BMC 1.5, with a reconditioned one, with a warranty, from a well known company. What could possibly go wrong.....

 

The engine was fitted, and had major timing problems so after a bit of argy bargy, the suppliers agreed to replace it with another unit, to enable me to get underway ... all good. The replacement was fitted by one of their engineers, started and ran ... it was a bit noisier than my old engine, but no knocks or smoke.

 

Next day I decided to get moving and it wouldn't start. Turned over lumpily, tried to fire, puffs of white smoke but just faded and died. The suppliers sent an engineer, diagnosed some residual air in diesel system, bled it, finally got it going ... and off I went.

 

Next day, checked oil and water, topped both up ... about 1/2 litre of oil .... again it wouldn't start, same as before. Called suppliers, who told me I couldn't keep calling every time I couldn't start my engine and that I should join RCR. They finally agreed to send engineer, if I agreed to pay if it was not a problem with the engine, and same as before ... diagnosed air in system, bled through, checked for leaks, got her started ... and I went on my way. The engine vibrates more than I am used to and is noisy, no knocks, just sounds like a doggy old BMC, no smoke. Stopped a couple of times, and started fine when warm.

 

Next day, checked oil ... nothing at all showing on dipstick, no sign of oil in engine bay .... engineer is sent, checks it over, tops up oil and eventually gets it running so that I can charge batteries etc and says I'll probably be ok to cruise and someone will be in touch. I stay put. the company get in touch and say it is not unusual for a new engine to get "gunked up" and this causes piston rings to stick and they would come and put some oil treatment in. I asked if the term "gunked up" was a technical term as I had not come across it in the context of a reconditioned engine.

 

Another engineer comes out, does compression test, which he says is fine, fixes a few alleged leaks in my fuel system, removes bell housing and .... hey presto, there is the missing oil. He diagnoses that the engine has overheated, and melted the crank seal. There was nothing to suggest it had overheated, water in header tank fine, temp gauge steady .... he points out a slight kink in one of my pipes, which has allegedly been there for ages as they don't bend easily and this is the cause of the overheating luckily I have photos of offending pipe, without twists, prior to the fitting of the second engine

 

The company then decided they need to investigate all "environmental factors" that could causing these issues. So next, there must be a problem with my gearbox, PRM160, They come and remove it, scratch their heads, put it back, go through everything possible, including my fuel system .... and find a possible breach in the injector pump gasket ... it's not unusual for them to "work loose" apparently after an engine has been bench tested .... but surely all the oil would be in my engine bay if this was the case ... apparently not. What about the oil in the bell housing? ... gearbox overfilled (it wasn't)

 

So, it all went back together, they eventually got her to fire up, it vibrated and juddered to such an extent that stuff was falling off shelves, there was some black smoke .... then it settled down, a bit ... problem solved, apparently air in the system can cause excessive vibration on start up ... I can now continue my journey i am told

 

Next day, wouldn't start ... same as before ... called company ... must be a fuel leak somewhere in my system letting air in over night. There is an engineer currently replacing all my diesel pipes as I type this. I have suggested that perhaps the problem lies in the engine, but they refuse to consider this until all "environmental factors" are eliminated. I asked if they could arrange a tow to enable me to fill up with water, empty loo and charge batterys ... no, let the engineer sort out my dodgy fuel system first

 

So, here I am, in Oswaldtwistle, on the L&L, in the snow, low on water and coal, have had no power or hot water for weeks, and indeed no income as I have been unable to trade, on the friday before a bank holiday weekend feeling as if I have slipped into some Kafka-esque nightmare. I have not discussed this publicly till now, and been as reasonable as i can be BUT .... i have omitted some details, like their failure to supply a copy of the warranty in writing until yesterday ....

 

Now, I'm no engineer ... and there may well be a leak in my diesel system, my gearbox may have dropped some oil into the bell housing, all the engine oil may have been lost through the injector pump gasket ... but could there may be a problem elsewhere, maybe with the crankshaft? it seems to me that this would explain most of the symptoms ... and would only have manifested when the engine was first put under load by the engineer after fitting

 

Any thoughts? ... I'm not looking for sympathy, and not naming and shaming at this point, as the company are still trying to resolve the problem .... just looking for some light entertainment and genuinely trying to get my head round this situation and understand what is going on ... also concerned that this engine was run without oil for some time. The oil pressure gauge was left off when it was fitted as it was "missing a splitter" ... I was told it would be ok to move, as it was a new engine, but to get it sorted at next boat yard ... I haven't got there yet ...

 

and if anyone is heading west on the L&L and could offer a tow to rishton / water / drop me some coal ?

or suggest boat yard between Oswaldtwistle and Wigan that might come and tow me ...

 

cheers cheers.gif bunny

 

 

It sound very much as though the two 'reconditioned' engines you been supplied with so far are in reality somebody else's knackered engines that have been given what is known in the trade as a 'Jizer and paint' overhaul.

The various explanations for the problems from these 'engineers' that you have related are utter twaddle.

I would advise that you tell the suppliers of this junk they've sold you to come and remove it and refund every last penny you've paid.

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Hi Bunny, that's quite a sad story, and it is going to be difficult but stick to your guns.

Just on one point, I have been a mechanic since 1965 including 27 years of Motor Racing engine preparation and even with the most spectacular engine blow ups I have never known or even heard of a rear crankshaft oil seal melting. They are often damaged accidentally when they are fitted where the spring tensioned sealing lip gets caught as it is meant to slide over the boss on the crankshaft that it runs on. In the event of the engine getting hot enough to melt the rear seal it would have also melted the front crankshaft seal causing the oil to leak into the engine bay, but the distress of such a hot engine would be more than obvious. The other so called explanations sound like Bulls to me.

It is a shame you are at the other end of the canal system. Good luck,

Ian The Boater. 07704 249 523.

Hi Bunny, that's quite a sad story, and it is going to be difficult but stick to your guns.

Just on one point, I have been a mechanic since 1965 including 27 years of Motor Racing engine preparation and even with the most spectacular engine blow ups I have never known or even heard of a rear crankshaft oil seal melting. They are often damaged accidentally when they are fitted where the spring tensioned sealing lip gets caught as it is meant to slide over the boss on the crankshaft that it runs on. In the event of the engine getting hot enough to melt the rear seal it would have also melted the front crankshaft seal causing the oil to leak into the engine bay, but the distress of such a hot engine would be more than obvious. The other so called explanations sound like Bulls to me.

It is a shame you are at the other end of the canal system. Good luck,

Ian The Boater. 07704 249 523.

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Hi Bunny, that's quite a sad story, and it is going to be difficult but stick to your guns.

Just on one point, I have been a mechanic since 1965 including 27 years of Motor Racing engine preparation and even with the most spectacular engine blow ups I have never known or even heard of a rear crankshaft oil seal melting. They are often damaged accidentally when they are fitted where the spring tensioned sealing lip gets caught as it is meant to slide over the boss on the crankshaft that it runs on. In the event of the engine getting hot enough to melt the rear seal it would have also melted the front crankshaft seal causing the oil to leak into the engine bay, but the distress of such a hot engine would be more than obvious. The other so called explanations sound like Bulls to me.

It is a shame you are at the other end of the canal system. Good luck,

Ian The Boater. 07704 249 523.

Hi Bunny, that's quite a sad story, and it is going to be difficult but stick to your guns.

Just on one point, I have been a mechanic since 1965 including 27 years of Motor Racing engine preparation and even with the most spectacular engine blow ups I have never known or even heard of a rear crankshaft oil seal melting. They are often damaged accidentally when they are fitted where the spring tensioned sealing lip gets caught as it is meant to slide over the boss on the crankshaft that it runs on. In the event of the engine getting hot enough to melt the rear seal it would have also melted the front crankshaft seal causing the oil to leak into the engine bay, but the distress of such a hot engine would be more than obvious. The other so called explanations sound like Bulls to me.

It is a shame you are at the other end of the canal system. Good luck,

Ian The Boater. 07704 249 523.

 

It would have to be something very spectacular indeed to melt the oil sealing arrangement at the flywheel end of a BMC 1.5 crank, . . . it isn't a lip seal, . . . it's a thrower and scroll.

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It would have to be something very spectacular indeed to melt the oil sealing arrangement at the flywheel end of a BMC 1.5 crank, . . . it isn't a lip seal, . . . it's a thrower and scroll.

 

I think there were several versions of the 1.5 for different original applications and some may have had a lip seal.

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I think there were several versions of the 1.5 for different original applications and some may have had a lip seal.

 

I would be very surprised if there were any with a lip seal, because it would necessitate major changes to the crankcase and rear main bearing cap, and to the flywheel end of the crank itself. It would be possible to fit a half ring packing type seal, similar to the set up that some older Perkins had for the rear main, with less changes and modifications than needed for a lip seal, but then they wouldn't melt either.

Edited by Tony Dunkley
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How depressing. If I was you.... I would look really carefully at the barely visible edge of the head gasket, if it doesn't look brand new then something is wrong, even if its been pressure washed and degreased and sprayed it might give you a clue as to whether the heads been off, worth a look under the rocker cover as well just to see if its clean and had a nice new gasket, if not then that is not good. This has a potentially bad feeling about it, If the company is well known and has a reputation to consider then it might be worth asking what undersize crank it is and oversize pistons and rings etc. etc., just to see if they really do the job or just 'Jizer and paint' them. You might have to threaten to remove the head and see if its been rebored and fitted with new pistons, Once the fuel problems and rear seal have been sorted it could all be ok, the fact that its a bit noisy could be because is still a bit 'tight'. Fingers crossed and good luck.

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quick update, there was air in the system, and because my fuel pipes are, inevitably, a weird size, they were unable to replace, but eliminated a few potential problem areas .... she started with a bit of effort

 

the vibration and juddering is now thought to be due to misalignment,

 

i cruised for half hour and it is hard to tell if the rattles are from the engine or due to the excessive vibration but she doesn't smoke

 

I'll see what tomorrow brings. The company is trying hard to resolve the issues, they have probably spent more than the engine cost trying to sort it out, and have now offered to replace this engine .... and I don't actually think they supplied a dodgy engine. the problem with asking for them to remove it and give me my money back is that I am then up the proverbial creek without a paddle .... but thanks for input

Edited by HappyBunny
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quick update, there was air in the system, and because my fuel pipes are, inevitably, a weird size, they were unable to replace, but eliminated a few potential problem areas .... she started with a bit of effort

 

the vibration and juddering is now thought to be due to misalignment,

 

i cruised for half hour and it is hard to tell if the rattles are from the engine or due to the excessive vibration but she doesn't smoke

 

I'll see what tomorrow brings. The company is trying hard to resolve the issues, they have probably spent more than the engine cost trying to sort it out .... and I don't actually think they supplied a dodgy engine. the problem with asking for them to remove it and give me my money back is that I am then up the proverbial creek without a paddle .... but thanks for input

 

Any misalignment which may be causing or contributing to noise and vibration will have been introduced at the time the engine was re-installed, so don't take any comfort from that.

 

However much these comedians may have spent in trying to make what they have supplied you with perform as it should is entirely their problem, and not yours. They may be doing their best to sort things out, but clearly their best is nowhere near good enough.

 

I'm collecting an engine from near Morecambe early part of next week, so I'll be passing fairly close to where you are. If you would like me to call in and have a look at it, then I'll be happy to do so.

Edited by Tony Dunkley
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Hi bunny,

Sorry to hear you're still having engine problems. If it's any consolation, you're old engine is still in bits. The crank needs a regrind as the bearings were worn down to the copper. It will live again soon but a few other jobs are taking priority.

 

Rob

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Any misalignment which may be causing or contributing to noise and vibration will have been introduced at the time the engine was re-installed, so don't take any comfort from that.

 

However much these comedians may have spent in trying to make what they have supplied you with perform as it should is entirely their problem, and not yours. They may be doing their best to sort things out, but clearly their best is nowhere near good enough.

 

 

Indeed, and I expect the misalignment and resulting vibration may well have led to the injector pump working loose and consequent loss of oil, and impacted on, or caused, the diesel leaks. Mistakes can happen. They shouldn't, but they do, we are all human beans.

 

The reason I shared this experience was to demonstrate how a relatively straightforward engine exchange can become a complete nightmare and potentially very costly experience. Throw in a bit of unseasonably bad weather, on a fairly remote stretch of canal and even a hard core, liveaboard ccer can get caught out with no fuel, water or power for weeks. Add to that the fact that I am a roving trader, and have not been in a suitable location to trade for two months now and the whole thing becomes a little stressful.

 

I was keen to get moving to attend events and trade. With hindsight, setting off without the oil pressure gauge was a mistake, which could have led to the engine seizing and catastrophic damage had I not checked the oil daily. Being advised I was ok to continue moving despite reporting the vibration possibly compounded the problems. Getting stranded when she dumped the oil in a remote location without good vehicular access to the towpath didn’t help.

 

The moral of the story ... buy from a reputable company, like I did. Even then, I needed to have a basic understanding of how an engine works and is fitted, so that I could negotiate coherently and firmly for my consumer rights, and get problems sorted. I could easily have accepted some of the early suggestions, had further delays and got into more expensive trouble,

 

Diagnosing the cause of engine problems, particularly it seems with BMCs, is a complex dark art and dishonest people can take advantage of this if you don’t feel confident enough to question them. Equally, you have to trust the experts and that is why I found this forum useful in my early boating days. However, not all experts are as expert as they think, and even the most expert expert can have a bad day or get things wrong. Patience also helps, as diagnoses can take time … but it's hard to be patient when you have no money coming in, no water or electrickery and full cassettes ...and it starts to snow

 

This situation could have become even more protracted and difficult if the engine had been fitted by a third party, as the first one I had was, leading to buck passing. And always get things in writing, even a reputable firm can renege on a verbal agreement. ....

luckily just being in a place called Oswaldtwistle had the capacity to make me grin biggrin.png

 

Hi bunny,

Sorry to hear you're still having engine problems. If it's any consolation, you're old engine is still in bits. The crank needs a regrind as the bearings were worn down to the copper. It will live again soon but a few other jobs are taking priority.

 

Rob

 

do you want to sell it???? .... joke wink.png

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