Robust debate - Technical discussions.

[DHutch]

We have recently had a large number of reports regarding various technical and or electrical threads.

 

Typically reports are concerned for the below reasons.

- Topics failing to provide answers to the questions raised and or not staying on topic.

- Replies turning into a very protracted technical debate which become imposable to follow.

- Members resorting to personal comments and or attacks when disagreeing with other members.

 

I am quite happy for the site to host robust debate between keen and or knowledgeable members, but these members also need to remember that a lot of those starting a thread may well not have the desire to debate technical manor to the Nth degree.

 

Please can I ask members to make an effort to keep on topic, keep the OP or original posters needs to mind, and if need be start another topic or flag to the site staff that a topic may need splitting.

 

Thank you.

 

Daniel

Site Owner

[b0atman]

exactly why I stopped using the site a couple of years ago .this last year it had got better but people seemed to have started eating the tech manuals again.

[peterboat]

cheers daniel the voice of common sense

[blackrose]

I agree with Daniel's last point about personal comments/attacks, but not the rest of his post.

 

For example, it's often not possible to get to the bottom of some electrical issues without the discussion getting quite technical. I admit it's often it's too technical for me because I'm not electrically trained or qualified, but I can still normally follow the gist of the debate and I appreciate the depth of expertise of the contributors - even if they disagree with each other.

 

Sometimes "answers" just aren't that easy to provide, but that shouldn't stop us discussing the issues and possible solutions. I don't think contributors should always feel the need to provide simple answers. Sometimes a discussion is more about provoking thought so those who are asking the questions can then decide which of the answers is most appropriate for them.

 

If members (and the site owner) really want technical discussions to be dumbed down that will be to the detriment of this forum in my opinion. There are other "lesser" boat forums for that.

 

As for staying on topic, is it really such a big issue? Just read around the post and ignore the ones that you don't consider relevant. Very occasionally a post that at first appears to be off-topic may well open up a new line of thought and discussion.

 

Just my tuppence-worth.

Edited January 18, 2016 by blackrose

[Tony Brooks]

And all too often the disagreement is a result of a poorly worded question being interpreted in different ways by different people. It is not until the questioner comes back, which they all too often do not, that the correct interpretation becomes clear.

 

I also often comment when an answer seems it could be confusing or too technical for what I call an ordinary boater, this often leads to further discussion.

 

I feel rather aggrieved that a questioner feels it acceptable to complain that their question was not answered or that it went off topic unless they come back and contribute/clarify. None of us contribute for payment so it reads like a kick in the teeth for spending ones time trying to help (this is NOT directed at Dan).

 

May be Dan/the Mods could think about pointing out there are other places to get information and maybe even have to pay for it.

[Giant]

I suspect a lot of the time newer posters have no idea how quickly replies will accumulate. It often seems that within hours, people are complaining that the OP hasn't returned to provide further clarifications. Given the slower pace of many other forums they may well have been planning to check back in a few days. By the time they come back they may be too terrified to post again!

Edited January 18, 2016 by Giant

[Phil Ambrose]

Speed of replies is often staggering and with this in mind I nearly always urge new members to check back often when asking a question, I and others do this as a matter of course when greeting new to boating section etc,

Phil

[DHutch]

... it's often not possible to get to the bottom of some electrical issues without the discussion getting quite technical. I admit it's often it's too technical for me because I'm not electrically trained or qualified, but I can still normally follow the gist of the debate and I appreciate the depth of expertise of the contributors - even if they disagree with each other.

 

Sometimes "answers" just aren't that easy to provide, but that shouldn't stop us discussing the issues and possible solutions. I don't think contributors should always feel the need to provide simple answers. Sometimes a discussion is more about provoking thought so those who are asking the questions can then decide which of the answers is most appropriate for them.

I understand that sometimes a question, even what might appear as a simple question, does not have a simple answer and rather than given an answer or two, you will and up with a bit of debate about what the best option might be, the pros and cons of various things, and that it might be that not all of the debate is as a basic enough level for the opening poster.

 

However I do also maintain that some of the threads have been quite silly. Eight pages on wiring an RCD to an inverter, half of which I cannot follow as a keen graduate engineer with quite a lot of knowledge on the subject both boat and domestic wiring.

 

And all too often the disagreement is a result of a poorly worded question being interpreted in different ways by different people. It is not until the questioner comes back, which they all too often do not, that the correct interpretation becomes clear.

I suspect a lot of the time newer posters have no idea how quickly replies will accumulate. It often seems that within hours, people are complaining that the OP hasn't returned to provide further clarifications. Given the slower pace of many other forums they may well have been planning to check back in a few days. By the time they come back they may be too terrified to post again!

I think these two posts come hand in hand. Sometimes its quite clear the thread is not going to really be able to go anywhere till the OP comes back an answers some questions. So stop posting on it! Wait till they come back. If if has sparked a technical debate which is a spin-off topic, take that elsewhere, or report it to a moderator with the suggestion it is split off and a link to it provided in case the OP is interested.

 

Daniel

[Murflynn]

a common problem is when electrical questions are asked, using confusing or imaginary units.

 

if these ambiguities are not resolved quickly they just proliferate, adding to the confusion and frustration amongst those who have a technical background.

 

I guess what I am trying to say is that there are (at least) 2 sides to every issue.

Edited January 18, 2016 by Murflynn

[DHutch]

 

I feel rather aggrieved that a questioner feels it acceptable to complain that their question was not answered or that it went off topic unless they come back and contribute/clarify. None of us contribute for payment so it reads like a kick in the teeth for spending ones time trying to help (this is NOT directed at Dan).

For me I see it both ways, if the thread it running well but the OP complains somewhat ungratefully for the effort given as its not exactly what/how they wanted, that's crappy of them. But on the flip side if the OP has started a thread to ask a question about how to do a fairly specific thing, and comes back 24hours later and the two replies on the threads been trashed by a handful of members debating an only mildly related points backwards and forward, Then I would be pissed of as the OP too.

Especially if they are a new ish member, or new to forums as a whole they may never come back or use a forum again, and what a waste that would be.

 

Daniel

[Sir Nibble]

The thing is that even where information is available the knowledgeable can be drowned out by the less knowledgeable but keen. It can be frustrating to see an obvious problem with a clear solution fogged over by semi understood musings on impedance in a dc circuit or insistent expositions that are plain wrong. In engineering there is not room for shades of opinion and how do you prevent the op taking bad advice if it is not exposed as bad advice?

[nicknorman]

The thing is that even where information is available the knowledgeable can be drowned out by the less knowledgeable but keen. It can be frustrating to see an obvious problem with a clear solution fogged over by semi understood musings on impedance in a dc circuit or insistent expositions that are plain wrong. In engineering there is not room for shades of opinion and how do you prevent the op taking bad advice if it is not exposed as bad advice?

This is the nub of the problem in many cases. The trouble is, who decides who knows what they are talking about and who is BSing? I think we all know that there is only one chief alternator expert on here, but as to other areas...

[Graham.m]

a common problem is when electrical questions are asked, using confusing or imaginary units.

 

if these ambiguities are not resolved quickly they just proliferate, adding to the confusion and frustration amongst those who have a technical background.

 

I guess what I am trying to say is that there are (at least) 2 sides to every issue.

 

I would suggest that any technical person dealing with a layperson gets used to confusing or imaginary units being used and by listening carefully or reading carefully can decide whether it is amp hours or amps, kWs or kWhs etc. The worst thing they can do is to castigate the poster for using the wrong unit or whatever, the poster feels knocked back and feel foolish. The posters have enough problems describing what is wrong and they are often worried and concerned.

[mrsmelly]

This is the nub of the problem in many cases. The trouble is, who decides who knows what they are talking about and who is BSing? I think we all know that there is only one chief alternator expert on here, but as to other areas...

 

Bring back Gibbo............

 

Tim

[Murflynn]

 

I would suggest that any technical person dealing with a layperson gets used to confusing or imaginary units being used and by listening carefully or reading carefully can decide whether it is amp hours or amps, kWs or kWhs etc. The worst thing they can do is to castigate the poster for using the wrong unit or whatever, the poster feels knocked back and feel foolish. The posters have enough problems describing what is wrong and they are often worried and concerned.

disagree.

 

there have been several threads when the meaning is not at all clear, for example the recent one about the power usage of a washing machine.

 

another common mistake involves the use of a unit like amps/hr.

if that represents his understanding and knowledge then the poster has no business even asking the question in the first place before doing a bit more research or bringing in a qualified person.

[Graham.m]

disagree.

 

there have been several threads when the meaning is not at all clear, for example the recent one about the power usage of a washing machine.

 

another common mistake involves the use of a unit like amps/hr.

if that represents his understanding and knowledge then the poster has no business even asking the question in the first place before doing a bit more research or bringing in a qualified person.

 

I don't believe that we should require people to have done a load of research before posting, they are people in trouble who need help who may not be able to afford that qualified person. They are just trying to live on or enjoy their boats.

[smileypete]

How about starting to compile an FAQ covering the most basic problems?

 

Could do a lite FAQ first, then when all areas are covered make it more in depth.

 

So for example, the sub section on water pumps could cover:

 

- Which pump should I buy?

 

- How to replace an existing pump?

 

- My pump is leaking, what do I do?

 

- My pump won't start (or stop!) what should I do.

 

- How do I fix poor flow/pump cycling and other performance problems?

 

cheers, Pete.

smpt

[Graham.m]

Here is an example of someone who went to the qualified person and ended up with a bad job. The problem was solved by members of the forum http://www.canalworld.net/forums/index.php?showtopic=81793

[Paul C]

How about starting to compile an FAQ covering the most basic problems?

 

Could do a lite FAQ first, then when all areas are covered make it more in depth.

 

So for example, the sub section on water pumps could cover:

 

- Which pump should I buy?

 

- How to replace an existing pump?

 

- My pump is leaking, what do I do?

 

- My pump won't start (or stop!) what should I do.

 

- How do I fix poor flow/pump cycling and other performance problems?

 

cheers, Pete.

smpt

 

Its a good idea but there's an amount of work involved in collating the info which becomes somewhat spread out in a forum thread, into a more concice, readable, manageable "technical article" which is genuinely useful. Basically a technical editor job. Also, whilst we could use the forum software to 'publish' them, its something more suited to eg a content management system or a wiki.

 

None of the above is an insurmountable issue however, and would be a useful addition to the website.

[BruceinSanity]

Its a good idea but there's an amount of work involved in collating the info which becomes somewhat spread out in a forum thread, into a more concice, readable, manageable "technical article" which is genuinely useful. Basically a technical editor job. Also, whilst we could use the forum software to 'publish' them, its something more suited to eg a content management system or a wiki.

 

None of the above is an insurmountable issue however, and would be a useful addition to the website.

That's quite an idea (says he with no tech skills to offer...). A wiki with editors approved by the mods as being qualified in the relevant areas would be an excellent resource.

[nicknorman]

That's quite an idea (says he with no tech skills to offer...). A wiki with editors approved by the mods as being qualified in the relevant areas would be an excellent resource.

If we can't agree on a simple answer to a simple technical question then I don't see how we could agree on the contents of a wiki, and it would then be a case of someone having to decide that x knew what he was talking about whilst y didn't. But in reality no-body knows it all, it's just that some are better than others.

 

The other thing to bear in mind is that the debate is part of the learning process. Probably all the answers to all the questions are in a textbook somewhere but nobody wants to read that because it's too cold and impersonal. Taking part in debate where you are sometimes wrong, sometimes right, and hopefully the latter an increasing proportion of the time, is the strength of the forum.

Edited January 19, 2016 by nicknorman

[dor]

And all too often the disagreement is a result of a poorly worded question being interpreted in different ways by different people.

 

 

And not infrequently, the answer given is wrong because the replier has not read the question properly, or doesn't read the whole thread. I'm not saying that I am not guilty of this at times...

 

How often to we see a good reply to a question which seems to be ignored as two pages on the same answer is given by someone else?

[Graham.m]

We are all guilty of making mistakes and misreading being in a hurry etc.

But perhaps getting up tight with the words used by someone to express something is not important. What is important is that the forum is a resource given without guarantee or warranty.

One thing I do know is that fault finding is a special skill, it does not involve spelling out details of this formula or that correct way to write Ah or is it A/h or is it aH or whatever. It is the ability to think logically about a problem with an open mind and look at the whole. The thing is to deal with the problem and not the theory.

Recently there was a thread in which because there were closed minds, it could not be this item causing the problem it is perfect, and anyone who thinks it might be or who went down a different road of fault finding is wrong. The forum did not find the faults

To often people fall back on the past, last time it was this so it must be this again sometimes it is, but sometimes it is not.

I am no longer good with words nor do I think as fast as I used to; but I hope what I have written is understandable or at least the meaning I am trying to impart. To keep the grammar police happy I have put this through Word, but even that may not be enough for them.

ETA Perhaps I should have used the term "trouble shooting" rather than the old fashioned fault finding

 

And all too often the disagreement is a result of a poorly worded question being interpreted in different ways by different people.

But who defines if a question is poorly worded. For some the words written may express what the writer wanted to express to others it can be a nonsense. From what I have seen posters do not do too bad a job

 

If we can't agree on a simple answer to a simple technical question then I don't see how we could agree on the contents of a wiki,...

Perhaps it could be that you look for theoretical perfection, when what the poster is looking for is a simple answer do this and your problem should be solved. If they were of engineering bent they would have been engineers. I find they are people living their lives and trying to enjoy their boating without deep theoretical lessons. Edited January 19, 2016 by DHutch

[Giant]

I wonder whether it would be helpful to have a specialised forum area, along the lines of:

 

Questions & Answers: OP asks a question, other replies must focus on answering the OP's question. Going off topic strictly forbidden. If disputed points come up, start a new topic elsewhere and link to it once from the question topic. If unable to proceed further without clarification from the OP, say so once and don't respond further until OP clarifies. Basically, a special area where we use the forum a bit more like a Q&A site (StackExchange, Yahoo Answers, that kind of thing). If that doesn't interest you, don't participate.

[cuthound]

Since joining CWDF I quickly learned who knew their stuff and who didn't. However I am a qualified electrical engineer and have a sound understanding of mechanical things through experience.

 

I suspect that most new members lurk first before joining and will quickly learn who can bevtrusted and who cannot.

 

As others have said, the discussion clarifies points, understanding and learning. I prefer learning this way, rather than having the answer presented to me without my necessarily understanding why it is the right answer.