Boat builder / manufacturer buying advice please.

[Loafer]

at first glance that looked a lot of boat and engine for the money IMO , then I noticed owner fit out which will inevitably lower the price but some are quite good , from the pics this one it seems is not .. at least its not to my taste and I think it has a lot to do with the price being pretty low for a 2009 boat with a Gardener . might be worth having a look if you can live with the clunky fit out .

 

Being Hydraulically driven seems odd what exactly is that ? good or bad ? and why ? ( curious as never seen one before )

 

If it's an engine-driven hydraulic pump driving a hydraulic motor with a propeller attached, my pet hydraulic engineer told me to stay well away from it.

[bottle]

As per loafers post, I was answering but Firefox crashed.

 

Another disadvantage is the engine runs at a set speed and the boat speed is set by a trolling valve.

 

So engine running in the region of 1300 to 1500 rpm, constantly (engine and hydraulic box dependant) so when passing moored boats the engine revs do not drop, they do not hear them drop, you get shouted at.

 

One boat I met, that had this system, had a high pitched whine, not very nice.

[RufusR]

 

If it's an engine-driven hydraulic pump driving a hydraulic motor with a propeller attached, my pet hydraulic engineer told me to stay well away from it.

 

 

thanks guys learn something every day but now next question is WHY ??

[Loafer]

I tried one when looking for my current boat. It seemed quite 'underpowered' and was fitted with a JD3. It also had a hydraulic bow thruster ('sOK, I didn't buy it!) which also seemed a bit pathetic.

 

When describing all this to my pet engineer, he said it would bring nothing but trouble and was inefficient. Or words a bit like those.

The good bit was proper headroom throughout, with no transmission gubbins under the boatman's cabin floor.

[ARAL]

:-) This is indeed the boat I was looking at. I admit it is not the most 'luxurious' fit-out, but I like these older 'thumper' diesel engines and it seems like quite a new boat with a decent engine for not stupid money. I get what you are saying about the hydraulic drive - I have actually emailed the seller to ask why they did this, since the only reason do do this normally is to separate the engine and prop, such that the engine can be some distance away. In this case though they are in line and about 12 inches apart, so it does beg the question 'why?'. What I was trying to establish though is whether this shell from Price Fallows is a good starting point, or whether it it is one of the lesser-quality products that are best avoided. Thankyou again again! ;-)

 

Andrew.

[ditchcrawler]

 

Particularly as itis possible to find not much older boats by the same builder on sale at well under half that price!

 

OK doesn't prove a lot, but itwould need to be something highly exceptional - and it would still be very unlikely to be worth £80K!

 

EDIT:

 

If it is this one, then it is hardly conventional, having a cocooned engine, driving a hydraulic system with a trolling valve, and with the boat designed as gas-less.

 

However at the end of the day it is still a fairly typical loking Tyler/Wilson shell, and I'm really struggling with the asking price on this one, (actually OVER £80K)

Jan the owner designed the interiors of Ownership boats. I haven't been on the boat for several years but knowing Andy the boat probably looks the same as when it came out of the yard. http://www.nb-whisper.com/

[alan_fincher]

it must be me I guess, but why in the name of heaven would anybody choose to have a semi-trad boat and then bury a nice old 2 cylnider Gardner under deck boards under their feet.

Surely the usual appal of something like a Gardner is to have it in a boat with a fully traditional layout including an engine room, so that it can be shown off in all its shininess?

 

If you are going to hide an engine under the floor why would you not go the standard route of a modern marinised engine from the Far East.

OK, I know we are different, but I really can't start to get my head around sch an idea!

Also, if it is genuinely only 2' 3" draft, I wonder quite how the propeller sizing works out with the hydraulic drive. Normally one might expect a boat with a 2L2 in to draw rather more, and have quite a large prop, but that would be with a conventional drive, of course.

but I like these older 'thumper' diesel engines.........................

 

So do I, but wouldn't you like to have it shown off as a feature, rather than hidden away?

[ditchcrawler]

 

If it's an engine-driven hydraulic pump driving a hydraulic motor with a propeller attached, my pet hydraulic engineer told me to stay well away from it.

Does your pet Hydraulic engineer know anything about boat hydraulics?

[ditchcrawler]

 

Also, if it is genuinely only 2' 3" draft, I wonder quite how the propeller sizing works out with the hydraulic drive. Normally one might expect a boat with a 2L2 in to draw rather more, and have quite a large prop, but that would be with a conventional drive, of course.

 

 

With the right pump and motor you can drive the prop at any speed you like. I do know that one Gardner owner wanted to fit a hydraulic drive the boat with the engine constantly on tickover and increase the speed of the prop with the hydraulic pump. ARS did tell him it wouldn't work but I have no idea if he listened or not.

[Loafer]

Does your pet Hydraulic engineer know anything about boat hydraulics?

 

I'm guessing so. I sent him photos of all the parts.

 

If you're interested, I'll email him and ask him why, again. This was 6 years ago. He does HAVE a boat, a Grand Banks sea boat.

 

ETA: I have emailed my pet engineer. I'll post his response here later.

Edited December 9, 2015 by Loafer

[ARAL]

All very interesting, thankyou for all of your views / input. The £80k boat is indeed the one you are talking about. It is, as you suggested, still in fantastic condition for a boat of its age (I'm just not sure it's worth anything close to the asking price; as everyone seems to agree). I know there are many benefits to a more conventional drive system, i.e. a modern diesel engine under the rear deck and a gearbox-driven prop, but I always seem to spend my time on board many (admittedly maybe lower-spec, hire fleet) narrowboats wishing it could be as peaceful and tranquil on the rear deck as it is at the front, and this is apparently the case on this (very expensive) boat. Can anyone please tell me if they have ever been on, or own, a traditional-style (engine under the deck) boat with perhaps a well insulated / soundproofed engine bay and perhaps a hospital silencer that is actually a relatively quiet and tranquil place to be when you are the skipper? Again, a big thankyou!

[Athy]

This is certainly unusual but I think it looks very homely and inviting. What is "clunky" about the fitting-out?

 

Yes Alan, as you can guess, I agree about the positioning of the engine, but that's just another "different" feature. It should be powerful, reliable and long-lasting wherever it is situated. But why not simply have the gearbox connected to the propshaft and drive it conventionally?

 

I assume that the bed can be folded back to allow egress from the front doors.

 

 

Another puzzle: the contact is named as Sarah Edgson, who I believe is one of the Norton Canes boatbuilding family; yet this boat is oop North. How come?

[bottle]

All very interesting, thankyou for all of your views / input. The £80k boat is indeed the one you are talking about. It is, as you suggested, still in fantastic condition for a boat of its age (I'm just not sure it's worth anything close to the asking price; as everyone seems to agree). I know there are many benefits to a more conventional drive system, i.e. a modern diesel engine under the rear deck and a gearbox-driven prop, but I always seem to spend my time on board many (admittedly maybe lower-spec, hire fleet) narrowboats wishing it could be as peaceful and tranquil on the rear deck as it is at the front, and this is apparently the case on this (very expensive) boat. Can anyone please tell me if they have ever been on, or own, a traditional-style (engine under the deck) boat with perhaps a well insulated / soundproofed engine bay and perhaps a hospital silencer that is actually a relatively quiet and tranquil place to be when you are the skipper? Again, a big thankyou!

 

Yes mine and the engine bay is not soundproofed completely only the board covering the engine.

 

We often creep up on fishermen, it's amazing how some of them jump.

 

Of course it is not totally silent as I am effectively stood on top of it but for me I need to hear the engine, a little, for instance I can hear when it is labouring, gives a hint as to a problem, usually leaves on the prop.

[ARAL]

Thankyou bottle, I get your point - maybe I have just been on some particularly noisy / harsh (hire) boats. Do you have a particularly good high-end engine and / or a fancy silencer?

[bottle]

Beta 43, hospital silencer. trad stern.

 

I to hired many years ago and you could not hear someone on the tow-path or passing boat, I can now.

 

I am a lot older and the wife says I am going deaf, strange how I can hear everybody else though.

[ARAL]

Hello again. And thankyou again. I think maybe I need to go at look at a boat with a 'normal' engine setup but with a decent silencer. Is it a fairly simple modification to fit a hospital silencer to a boat with a standard exhaust system, or does this need to be incorporated at the design / build stage?

[alan_fincher]

Perhaps I have missed the explanation, but you have certainly confused me by at some points in the thread saying something like "I like these old thumper diesels", but at others concentrating on a desire for minimal noise and hospital silencers.

 

In general people expressing one of these preferences tend to be at opposite ends of the spectrum as to what they want a narrow boat engine to be, and the idea of wanting an engine that is old, maybe two cylndered, and slow revving, but then trying to suppress the usual noise that goes with such a beast seems most odd.

Are you wanting something that looks old and pretty, but manages to do so without sounding it? That may be a tall order, and you are unlikely to find many second hand boats that would fit that bill - those who have Gardners, or similar, usually go to some lengths to make sure they emit a fairly authentic sound.

[Flyboy]

Hello again. And thankyou again. I think maybe I need to go at look at a boat with a 'normal' engine setup but with a decent silencer. Is it a fairly simple modification to fit a hospital silencer to a boat with a standard exhaust system, or does this need to be incorporated at the design / build stage?

Fitting a hospital silencer is generally an easy job but finding the space for it may not be. They usually take up most of one side of the swim which may be populated with other bits of equipment.

[ARAL]

Thanks again.

In response to Alan, I am not too sure what I want at this stage but I do know that if I am going to hear the engine I would much rather it was a slow-revving old thumper than a modern 4-pot that tends to rev much higher. I think ideally I would rather have a nice, quiet, insulated boat (hence the attraction to the propgen-powered boat as discussed earlier, and my previous comments about noisy hire boats that I have been on in the past) but I have yet to experience first-hand a boat with a modern engine under the floor at the rear that is well-insulated and hence a relatively quiet place to be. Hopefully I will soon get to experience a good quality rear-engine setup, and this might change my perception for the better. It seems there is much research and time required to find the ideal vessel at a suitable price. Obviously if you are fortunate enough to be able to afford to commission your own build then you can have exactly what you want, but I am afraid my budget will not run to that. I guess I will therefore have no choice but to compromise in one area or another.

Thankyou once more. Andrew.

[nicknorman]

Just to mention that we too have a trad stern Beta 43 mounted at the rear with hospital silencer. It is very quiet, nearly inaudible, from the towpath especially on the non-exhaust side (often surprise fishermen) and whilst you can hear the engine when driving, it is quiet and smooth. We don't have any sound insulation in the engine bay so that is something we could add, but really don't see the need. Hydraulic drive boats I have encountered always seem to have a horrendous whine.

[ARAL]

Thanks nicknorman, I am more concerned about my own peace and calm on board than that of the fisher-type people! I do welcome this sort of advice though, on a serious note. So, at the risk of going off on a bit of a tangent, is it generally felt that there is a better / preferred engine manufacturer, either for smoothness, noise, reliability, power, or any other reasons. Most of the boats I see for sale (at least those without old Gardners or propgen systems) seem to have either a Beta, a Shires, or an Isuzu in them. Does anyone have any thoughts on this, or are they all much-of-a-muchness?

[nicknorman]

Thanks nicknorman, I am more concerned about my own peace and calm on board than that of the fisher-type people! I do welcome this sort of advice though, on a serious note. So, at the risk of going off on a bit of a tangent, is it generally felt that there is a better / preferred engine manufacturer, either for smoothness, noise, reliability, power, or any other reasons. Most of the boats I see for sale (at least those without old Gardners or propgen systems) seem to have either a Beta, a Shires, or an Isuzu in them. Does anyone have any thoughts on this, or are they all much-of-a-muchness?

You have to look at the base engine, for example most Betas are Kubota-based. However they also make one using a John Deere engine which is a completely different kettle fish.

 

Personally I think Beta / Kubota is the best of the modern engines, but then I'm biased! What Beta do offer is really good after sales service. I would avoid Vetus, they seem to give trouble and have very expensive spares. There are quite a few marinisers of Chinese engines these days ( Canaline I think?) which are OK but personally I would go for Japanese.

 

It's also worth looking at the alternator size and installation, Beta are good at pulley-ing their large alternators to produce lots of current at low revs, other marinisers are less good and you end up with alternators that only work properly at high revs.

Edited December 11, 2015 by nicknorman

[ARAL]

Thankyou. So much useful advice, and much of it about things I probably never would have considered (such as alternator efficiency at low revs). Please keep it coming! :-)

[Alan de Enfield]

Aral - just thinking a little outside of the box.

 

Where are you likely to want to use your boat ?

What do you want from your boat ?

This could dictate its dimensions.

 

Not only are 'narrowboats' built of steel, but you can get Fibreglass cruisers (conventional shaped boats) that will fit onto narrow-canals.

If you are looking to cruise on Rivers or 'wide canals' then a whole raft of opportunities open up to encompass 'widebeams' in either steel or Fibreglass.

With a widebeam you can go as far North as a 'rough line' across from Birmingham to Leicester.

 

Being as where you are situated, then the Thames and even going to Sea are all options - this would even open out the possibility of 'Dutch Barges'.

 

There are a lot more considerations than 'engine noise'.

 

If you decide 'it must be a steel narrowboat' then your next consideration is length - "not all lengths can fit into all locks" so again - where do you want to cruise ?

[ARAL]

Hello Alan, I am looking for a boat that is capable of travelling the entire British canal network. So it has to be a narrowboat, and I believe 60' is the maximum length (I used to believe that it was 57' but I have since been led to believe that the only locks that are 57' long are wide enough to take a 60' boat at an angle). I used to be OK with the idea of going to sea, but as the years go by I seem to get more seasick so I think I will have to stick to flat water! ;-)