Modern Canal Carrying

[Heffalump]

Is there much scope for canal carrying? Could one make a living with a working boat?

[stagedamager]

Possibly. Depending on load, location, boat etc..... what are you thinking?

[junior]

Depends very much you call a living and what you had in mind as 'carrying'.

[KJT]

Apart from the likes of the fuel boats, I think its very unlikely, otherwise it would have been done already. If you have an idea of what you might be carrying, do some costings, based on routing, time and load carried and then get a quote from a road haulier to shift the same load. I think you will find it a non starter. And thats ignoring the obvious fact that the canal network is very limited compared to the road network. And your costings would very probably have to include an element of road haulage anyway at one or both ends. And then there is the issue of return loads without which the business model would fall flat on its face. Unless you can think of a niche market that might be successful, but I doubt it.

 

Ken

[Bacchus]

Not sure whether this is the right place to post this picture (taken last Sunday on the Thames), but I like it, and both boats appeared to be carrying some cargo at least

 

[twbm]

As has been suggested, it's unlikely you'd make a 'living' other than as part of a preferred lifestyle on the fuel boats, and there's probably about as many of them as the canals can sustain already.

[Heffalump]

Apart from the likes of the fuel boats, I think its very unlikely, otherwise it would have been done already. If you have an idea of what you might be carrying, do some costings, based on routing, time and load carried and then get a quote from a road haulier to shift the same load. I think you will find it a non starter. And thats ignoring the obvious fact that the canal network is very limited compared to the road network. And your costings would very probably have to include an element of road haulage anyway at one or both ends. And then there is the issue of return loads without which the business model would fall flat on its face. Unless you can think of a niche market that might be successful, but I doubt it.

 

Ken

 

Thanks for the good points. I agree with the point about fuel boats and I don't think dusty is going to retire any time soon! I didn't have anything in mind particularly, but I wondered about somewhere like a car plant which must have regular deliveries of raw materials, but also a strong environmental ethic too. I wondered if such a place might be open to the idea of allowing some of their materials to be delivered in this way after some good pitching. More of a wondering I suppose, her indoors wants at least 60' of living space

[rufus2015]

What could be carried by canal cheaper than road ?

 

There are hardly any wharves left, and few places have deep water needed to carry a full load.

 

The cargo would still need to get to the end user, in the canal carrying days the factories were built on the canal bank. Not any more.

[David Mack]

Narrow boats are just too small to be viable. And that's before you take into account factors like reduced loading due to limited canal depth or holdups caused by leisure boaters.

 

Larger boats can work, such as the various recent gravel traffics, but only where source and destination are alongside the canal/river and there is equipment for mechanised loading and unloading. Even these traffic I suspect may not be fully economic and rely on environmental restrictions on lorries to justify their existence.

[StarUKKiwi]

There is a Canal carrying company somewhere. I remember reading about it recently

[Laurence Hogg]

Apart from the people that make a living bunkering other craft and waterside premises, the odds are stacked against you.

 

1, Where are all the loading wharves now? Take Wolverhampton, there is nowhere to load.

2, You are limited by the dredging depth which means you cannot in most cases fully load your boat and take it anywhere.

3, CRT will not understand what on earth you are doing and probably inpound you as a nuisance.

 

Its a great idea and one I would support if it was feasible and long term traffic existed to be had, alas at present it isn't going to happen.

 

Nuclear fuel rods would make a good traffic, at the very worst if the boat sunk they would be stored as normal, under water....

[Peter X]

In the long term, despite the very real problems others have described, I predict a slow and partial return of some canal carrying. Environmental concerns will become more important, and because water transport is a more efficient use of fuel any increase in fuel costs will work in its favour. Oil prices are low at present, and likely to remain so for a while especially if the deal with Iran gets done and the Saudis carry on with their current policy, but there is only a finite amount of oil in the world, so decades from now we may expect prices will be much higher.

 

All that won't be in time to make much difference for Heffalump, but in the short term there might be a few niche markets to be had. You need a non-perishable cargo where the source, destination or preferably both are alongside water, and perhaps to push the environmental/PR angle. To fill a working boat you need enough cargo, and preferably a return cargo. It also helps if you're not expecting to make much of a living, just to defray some of the boating costs you were going to have anyway because you like operating a working boat.

[Ray T]

Nick Wolfe on Aldgate does carrying work, other than fuel etc., but I have no idea whether he make a living out of it.

 

 

Edited August 13, 2015 by Ray T

[Tam & Di]

 

I wondered about somewhere like a car plant which must have regular deliveries of raw materials, but also a strong environmental ethic too. I

 

It's always possible, but I think extremely unlikely.

 

One of the last freights done in competition with road was limejuice for Rose's which continued to 1981. This was seasonal and only worked because it came in by ship to the London Docks, and was taken up the Thames by tug and lighter to Brentford where it was storde - it never went into a lorry. Rose's could process 100 tons a week at their plant in Boxmoor and a pair could load 50 tons and do two freights per week. The canal was still in good enough condition to take it and is river fed so generally has sufficient water, the infrastructure (cranes, wharves etc) still existed, and pleasure boat traffic was fairly light. If any one of these factors changed the job would have become uneconomic fairly quickly. That is what you are faced with if you hope to take such small cargoes on a regular basis. In the case of Rose's it was the rent on their plant at Boxmoor being raised, plus being in the ownership of Cadbury-Schweppes who had alternative sites where the processing could be carried out that put paid to the job. It was not an economical job in the sense that it did not really pay enough to replace the engine if it blew up, and major rebottoming could never happen.

 

The barrels was a seasonal job so we were always looking for alternative freights to keep us occupied in the summer. What we found then was we were offered cargoes of perhaps 20 tons or 200 tons - too small or too big for one pair, and getting 50 ton freights was like seeking hens' teeth. We were more or less forced into expanding our fleet simply to keep going, and ultimately moved into larger vessels and onto the Thames and estuary.

 

Tam

Edited August 14, 2015 by Tam & Di

[AMModels]

Nick Wolfe on Aldgate does carrying work, other than fuel etc., but I have no idea whether he make a living out of it.

 

DSCN0008.JPG

Using a boat to move the horse..... I cant help but think hes got that a bit wrong.

[ChimneyChain]

It's always possible, but I think extremely unlikely.

 

One of the last freights done in competition with road was limejuice for Rose's which continued to 1981. This was seasonal and only worked because it came in by ship to the London Docks, and was taken up the Thames by tug and lighter to Brentford where it was storde - it never went into a lorry. Rose's could process 100 tons a week at their plant in Boxmoor and a pair could load 50 tons and do two freights per week. The canal was still in good enough condition to take it and is river fed so generally has sufficient water, the infrastructure (cranes, wharves etc) still existed, and pleasure boat traffic was fairly light. If any one of these factors changed the job would have become uneconomic fairly quickly. That is what you are faced with if you hope to take such small cargoes on a regular basis. In the case of Rose's it was the rent on their plant at Boxmoor being raised, plus being in the ownership of Cadbury-Schweppes who had alternative sites where the processing could be carried out that put paid to the job. It was not an economical job in the sense that it did not really pay enough to replace the engine if it blew up, and major rebottoming could never happen.

 

The barrels was a seasonal job so we were always looking for alternative freights to keep us occupied in the summer. What we found then was we were offered cargoes of perhaps 20 tons or 200 tons - to small or too big for one pair, and getting 50 ton freights was like seeking hens' teeth. We were more or less forced into expending our fleet simply to keep going, and ultimately moved into larger vessels and onto the Thames and estuary.

 

Tam

Well that's a very nice insight into the past, thanks.

 

Darren

[Peter X]

Maybe the most economic traffic now is the boats themselves, there are people making a living as professional boat movers, and one day I might like to try it myself. When someone buys a boat at A and wants to moor it at B, perhaps intending to keep it in a marina and just do short trips at weekends or even none at all, they may not want to make a long journey themselves from A to B, either because they don't have the time off work to do it, or they lack the knowledge, or their health is not good enough. That's where matty40s comes in.

 

I don't think leisure boats should delay commercial boats much, so long as boaters have an understanding of what's involved. If they're going in the opposite direction, that won't cause any delays at locks and may be helpful, but there is a need to give working boats room to pass in a pound. If they're going the same way, the speed should be about the same, so the potential issue is queues at locks. I would be inclined to say yes if a commercial boat wanted to jump a queue, and did so twice for Salter's boats on the Thames, but I suppose some leisure boaters would not be happy, especially if they're hire boaters up against a deadline.

[RLWP]

Thanks for the good points. I agree with the point about fuel boats and I don't think dusty is going to retire any time soon! I didn't have anything in mind particularly, but I wondered about somewhere like a car plant which must have regular deliveries of raw materials, but also a strong environmental ethic too. I wondered if such a place might be open to the idea of allowing some of their materials to be delivered in this way after some good pitching. More of a wondering I suppose, her indoors wants at least 60' of living space

Car plants - absolutely no chance. They don't take raw materials beyond sheet steel and paint. Otherwise everything comes in in volume, ready to fit, in minimal packaging, sequenced to go onto cars in build order(2 red ones, a yellow one, two more red etc, etc) to very tightly timed schedules.

 

You could deliver one load sometime tomorrow to the nearest wharf - stoppages and hire boat crews permitting

 

Richard

[Ray T]

Car plants - absolutely no chance. They don't take raw materials beyond sheet steel and paint. Otherwise everything comes in in volume, ready to fit, in minimal packaging, sequenced to go onto cars in build order(2 red ones, a yellow one, two more red etc, etc) to very tightly timed schedules.

 

You could deliver one load sometime tomorrow to the nearest wharf - stoppages and hire boat crews permitting

 

Richard

 

I believe it is the "Just in time" principle to save the expense of having hoarded "squirrel stocks."

[George Kennedy]

It's a nice idea but if it could be viable, it would only be a matter of time before we would be overrun by Eddie Stobart narrowboats

 

https://christopherjwebb.files.wordpress.com/2013/10/boat_1_a.jpg

[peterboat]

I see freight on the canal twice a week, Humber Princess carrying oil from Hull to Rotherham so for some things the canal is best but its because we have proper canals for big boats that its a viable proposition so lets get that contour canal built sharpish

 

Peter

[tillergirl]

I know this isn't canals but today we saw a freight train with around 50 Ford Transits on it. Never seen them on the railways before only on road transporters. I guess in that case some firms are already looking to reduce their carbon footprint. Maybe its only a matter of time for canal freight then fro certain cargos.

[Taslim]

The idea was 'floated' one evening with a group of freinds.

 

They had fallen in love with an historic boat and were at the 'Yea,,..But.. We could afford to maintain Her if we.....' stage.

 

All the disadvantages mentioned in the thread came up as were the possible advantages which coud include that it took time to get from A to B.

 

The ultimate plan involved three combined picup/drop (sites 1, 2, 3).

 

Insulate the hold and start from a place where there was plenty of horse manure and straw.(site2) Load up, sheet up, move on.

 

Motor to bace (site1) as the cargo ferments and once there unload then load with a repared batch of S&S, as we would call it in the trade. This prepared and laced with mycelium ready to fruit. Possibly for various types of edible fungi.

 

Sheet up and move slowly as the crop grows to market (site3). Sell mush to Poncy Pervayors of Posh Produce, some good Pro-Mo needed here, and the mushroom compost to the garden centre.

 

Return to site 2 and repeat.

 

We celibrated our idea by visiting the all night shop for supplys. I wonder how cloud funding works?

[TheBiscuits]

The idea was 'floated' one evening with a group of freinds.

 

...

 

We celibrated our idea by visiting the all night shop for supplys. I wonder how cloud funding works?

 

Cloud funding is when you all get a bit woolly and throw a tenner in.

 

Crowd funding is when you get more than half a dozen mates with munchies to go along with it.

 

[Peter X]

Taslim, your idea may be brilliant or awful but it is certainly amusing and fun to plan.

 

You don't mentioned whether you've gone so far as to try to work out likely costs and income, but should do so before starting crowd funding. Step 1 would be to identify your market at site 3, which sounds rather like the restaurants of central or east London to me. But if you are selling a boatload of mushrooms at one go, you need the wholesale markets; New Covent Garden at Vauxhall if you have a quality product, otherwise Spitalfields in the East End, both conveniently near water. You're going to need a lot of trays stacked in the hold to maximise the load of mushrooms. To sell the spent compost you need posh suburbia with big gardens; fortunately there's lots of that along the Thames Valley on your way to site 2, with perhaps a detour onto the River Wey. Think of The Good Life, set in Weybridge (but actually filmed in NW London).

 

Site 2 sounds like Newbury on the K&A; isn't that a major location for racehorses? No doubt they have existing arrangements for supplying their product to local farmers, but you could ask. Maybe someone has a canal-side stables?

 

Site 1 needs cheap land alongside a canal. Somewhere out in the countryside, or maybe an unloved ex-industrial site, up north? Maybe somewhere that's cheap because it has no road access?

 

Then you need to think about timings. Get your times from CanalPlan, know how long it takes to load, unload and rot down a batch of compost, and how long to sow, grow and harvest the mushrooms, and in the light of all that think who's going to be doing what and where. If the boat is too quick, you either get someone at site 1 to start the crop off, or you take your time on that leg.

 

That's enough waffle from me, goodnight.