Backwards Boat Going Forwards, Indus Too

[pete harrison]

13 minutes ago, IanR said:

Couldn't find the rams head, must have left it at the other end!! 

O.K., some people call it the 'swans neck', although to me a 'swans neck' is a piece of ropework on a horse boat / butty helm 

[IanR]

Ok then, I thought it was the steery pole bit from the back of a butty, which was obviously at the other end of this particular vessel!! Go on then, what colour should it be, red white and blue in thirds? I just lazily copied Fulbourne because it looked good and was easy!! While were at it, what colour should the gunnels be?!!

Regards, Ian.

[Ray T]

9 minutes ago, IanR said:

Ok then, I thought it was the steery pole bit from the back of a butty, which was obviously at the other end of this particular vessel!! Go on then, what colour should it be, red white and blue in thirds? I just lazily copied Fulbourne because it looked good and was easy!! While were at it, what colour should the gunnels be?!!

Regards, Ian.

Take your pick, from Colours of the Cut by Edward Paget-Tomlinson.  I stand correction but I think the gunwhales are Raddle Red along the cabin, black or natural wood forward.

Edited September 1, 2017 by Ray T

[pete harrison]

5 minutes ago, IanR said:

Ok then, I thought it was the steery pole bit from the back of a butty, which was obviously at the other end of this particular vessel!! Go on then, what colour should it be, red white and blue in thirds? I just lazily copied Fulbourne because it looked good and was easy!! While were at it, what colour should the gunnels be?!!

Regards, Ian.

Both the rudder stock of a horse boat / butty and the 'zed iron' of a motor are both known as the 'rams head', although others that are more knowledgeable than me might have a different opinion. The 'steery pole' is the tiller in both cases.

Take another look at the photograph of BADSEY and you will get my answer to both of your questions. To be honest I do not know which way around the striping was done but I painted the top section of BADSEY's 'rams head' blue as I thought the brass tiller pin would contrast better than against the red, and I have always painted motor gunwales in red oxide primer as it is less slippery when wet 

[pete harrison]

40 minutes ago, Ray T said:

Take your pick, from Colours of the Cut by Edward Paget-Tomlinson.  I stand correction but I think the gunwhales are Raddle Red along the cabin, black or natural wood forward.

As far as I am aware Raddle Red is a modern colour and Red Lead was used extensively back in the day.

The top picture of FULBOURNE is absolutely incorrect and should not be used as a term of reference under any circumstances - EVER and I mean EVER. Edward Paget-Tomlinson was made aware of this shortly after it was first published in Waterways World (April 1994) and he accepted his mistake. Unfortunately Waterways World would not print the relevant letters of complaint and the later publication of this drawing in the booklet Colours Of The Cut was an absolute disgrace, especially as I had highlighted the mistakes yet again but no caveat was added. This drawing makes my blood boil.

Edited September 1, 2017 by pete harrison

[Ray T]

Oh dear, I was only trying to help - perhaps I should delete my contribution as I have apparently committed such an error?

Edited September 1, 2017 by Ray T

[matty40s]

When I painted Halsall, I had taken pictures of all similar paint schemes on historic boats including Stanton,  and then painted it as the upper structure seemed to flow. It was not an exact copy of anything , it was following the paint scheme to suit the boats metalwork. 

Which I envisage any boat painter from the year dot has done.

 

No two boats are the same.

[pete harrison]

18 minutes ago, Ray T said:

Oh dear, I was only trying to help - perhaps I should delete my contribution as I have apparently committed such an error?

Don't worry about it Ray, I am obviously running with higher blood pressure this evening.

2 minutes ago, matty40s said:

When I painted Halsall, I had taken pictures of all similar paint schemes on historic boats including Stanton,  and then painted it as the upper structure seemed to flow. It was not an exact copy of anything , it was following the paint scheme to suit the boats metalwork. 

Which I envisage any boat painter from the year dot has done.

No two boats are the same.

I completely agree that no two boats are the same, but using period photographs is much safer than photographing current boats as you will be much less likely to perpetuate their mistakes - and once several boats have the same mistake then it is likely to be read as being correct. This is my gripe with the drawing of FULBOURNE as it was used extensively as a term of reference - even on museum exhibits !

[matty40s]

10 minutes ago, pete harrison said:

Don't worry about it Ray, I am obviously running with higher blood pressure this evening.

I completely agree that no two boats are the same, but using period photographs is much safer than photographing current boats as you will be much less likely to perpetuate their mistakes - and once several boats have the same mistake then it is likely to be read as being correct. This is my gripe with the drawing of FULBOURNE as it was used extensively as a term of reference - even on museum exhibits !

Sorry, when I said taken pictures, I also meant looked at historic pictures too, there was at least one relevant thread on here at the time, along with a visit to Stoke B museum to see if there was anything useful there.

[mark99]

What's incorrect about the Fulb. paint?

 

ta

[MtB]

2 hours ago, mark99 said:

What's incorrect about the Fulb. paint?

 

ta

 

The full cream framing, I think. On the Aldgate only the top line is cream. 

[David Mack]

38 minutes ago, Mike the Boilerman said:

 

The full cream framing, I think. On the Aldgate only the top line is cream. 

Fulbourne only has the top line in cream. But there are historic photos of boats in GU Utility livery with just the top line and with full framing.

[pete harrison]

5 hours ago, mark99 said:

What's incorrect about the Fulb. paint?

ta

The two drawings show two different generations of Grand Union Canal Carrying Company Ltd. red / white / blue livery. The first ran from 1937 until about 1941 and is known by enthusiasts as the 'Coronation livery' - and the second from about 1941 until Nationalisation and is known by enthusiasts as the 'Utility livery' or 'Austerity livery' or 'Wartime livery'.

The first generation had fully lined panels and a fully lettered cabinside as per the general layout of FULBOURNE above, and the second generation was as per ALDGATE above - although there were a few variations of both liveries.

The problem with the drawing of FULBOURNE is it was based on the opinions of too many 'enthusiasts' rather than well researched fact resulting in a hybrid of the earlier turquoise / white / blue livery (1934 - 1937) and the first generation red / white / blue livery. Every single time that this drawing is published, whether on paper or on the Internet, it perpetuates the mistakes and because most people believe what they read it undermines the work of the few who have looked into these liveries more thoroughly  

edit = when I painted BADSEY in 1989 I chose the G.U.C.C.Co. Ltd. 'Utility livery' as at that time there were very few boats painted that way (see earlier photograph). I did however deliberately 'bend the rules' a little as I used the square design on the cabin end from the 1934 - 1937 livery as I could tape it up easier and I painted the top mast and luby in red to add some contrast against the plain blue running gear. Back then I was not particularly involved with research, and as the owner of the boat used my right to do with it as I wanted. Nobody ever picked up on these two alterations, but I would not make them if I was to paint a boat again.

Edited September 2, 2017 by pete harrison

[fittie]

Is it the address that is wrong with Fulbourne and should be the "Port of London Building" address?

[pete harrison]

It became quite common to see former Grand Union Canal Carrying Company Ltd. narrow boats painted as per the drawing of FULBOURNE throughout 1970's / 1980's when it became popular to re-introduce 'historic' liveries. Clearly owners used the vast array of black and white photographs to come up with their opinions of what the colours and tones would have been and then matched these to lettering of the period. I am sure there would then be an element of copying, especially of those boats owned or operated by museums or those which had undergone professional repainting (which was not common back then). Every single G.U.C.C.Co. Ltd. narrow boat that was painted in the first generation red / white / blue with 'company' lettering carried the 20 Bucklersbury address - perpetuating this livery into history to such a degree that it was published in Waterways World as a part of Edward Paget-Tomlinson's Colours Of The Cut series in April 1994. From this point forward there were only three clear voices that this was wrong - Alan Elyard Brown, Alan H. Faulkner and me.

It was not until about 2003 when somebody was prepared to listen as once something is published it is read as fact. The owners of BATTERSEA and ACTIS contacted me regarding the painting of ACTIS in the first generation G.U.C.C.Co. Ltd. livery, and as far as I am aware they became the first to letter a boat with the Port of London Building details, soon after followed by BATTERSEA which at that time was lettered 20 Bucklersbury but red / white / blue. This was a bit of a turning point as REGULUS followed very shortly afterwards and fortunately this trend has continued, although this has been a real personal battle for me especially as I am the only person still harping on.

Edward Paget-Tomlison made it clear at first publication in Waterways World that some liveries he drew were based on greyscale interpretation or the distant memories of the few people who could remember these boats in trade or even popular opinion. As I have said earlier in this thread there was an opportunity to add a caveat to the drawing of FULBOURNE prior to Colours Of The Cut been published in book form but it was ignored by somebody who thought they knew better, and every time it is bought to light it is necessary to go though all of this over and over again. Hopefully Colours Of The Cut will never be reprinted, but if it is I hope somebody is prepared to add that caveat 

[Athy]

So, Pete, which came first, the Bucklersbury address or the Port Of London one, and at what dates were they applied? From memory, the company existed for only 15 years.

Though I can see your point regarding strict historical accuracy, it is perhaps uncharitable to hope that E. P.-T's book will never be reprinted. Many people have enjoyed it over the years, and many have got the inspiration for their own boat's colour scheme (including us) from it.

[fittie]

Bucklersbury first .

[pete harrison]

3 hours ago, Athy said:

So, Pete, which came first, the Bucklersbury address or the Port Of London one, and at what dates were they applied? From memory, the company existed for only 15 years.

Though I can see your point regarding strict historical accuracy, it is perhaps uncharitable to hope that E. P.-T's book will never be reprinted. Many people have enjoyed it over the years, and many have got the inspiration for their own boat's colour scheme (including us) from it.

I am happy to remain uncharitable as Colours Of The Cut is full of errors, and in my 'business' accuracy is everything 

As far as I am aware there were three addresses (possible four but I can not find evidence at the moment) applied to Grand Union Canal Carrying Ltd. narrow boats as built:

20 Bucklersbury (March 1934 - January 1937) = turquoise / white / blue livery.

149 Fenchurch Street (January 1937 - March 1937) = turquoise / white / blue livery.

Port of London Building (March 1937 - c1941) = red / white / blue livery.

My terms of reference are the Health Registration certificates for each boat, which give the Company address at the time of Inspection - and I have sufficient transcripts of each Health Registration certificate to piece this all together. There is no doubt that the Grand Union Canal Carrying Company Ltd. operated from other addresses in London but I do not think they appeared on a cabin side, but if they did it would have been in the first three months of 1937.

As always there are a few anomallies where a boat was delivered in early 1937 but not Health Registered until later that year, such as THAXTED which was delivered 15 January 1937 so carried the address 149 Fenchurch Street but was health Registered on 20 July 1937 with the address detailed on the certificate as Port of London Building 

Edited September 3, 2017 by pete harrison

[IanR]

Fabulous information this, there are certainly some knowledgable folks who know their subject!! Are health registration certificates available for most boats then or are they held in strictly private collections? Does anyone happen to know the lettering sizes for the livery I'm doing? The boat name size seems to work out (from looking at pics and measuring from cabin height to lettering ratio's) at 4" with perhaps a snadgers above 5" for the G.U.C.C.Co Ltd and fleet number, plus the drop shadow. Also, what do the painty folk use to draw out the lettering, chalk type pencil, water based pen?? And what style of brushes, presumable flat square ended. Do folks paint the drop shadow first, then the white, seems easier?? Sorry for all the questions, I'll ask these questions in the relevent section.  We've managed to get three coats on our cabin now, just the final coat of magnolia for the go faster stripe and we are good to go for the lettering.

 

Ian.

[dave moore]

Hi. I'm a working signwriter specialising in boats. I'd suggest a size 5 long sable chisel lettering brush, square ended as the name suggests. One shot lettering enamels will flow well and cover easily. I use white Stabilo pencils for laying out, they will mark on almost any surface but can be removed later with a damp cloth. I don't get too hung up on letter size, preferring the signwriter's maxim " if it looks right, it is right....the registered at lettering had to be at least 2" tall, I understand, though a job I did earlier this year on an historic GU boat was rather less, based on photos. I suspect that many original jobs were laid out and sized by the signwriter doing the job on the day, rather than following an exact spec from the company. Having said that, I agree with most of your proposed sizing. I've never painted the shadow first, always the letter, that determines the shadow shape and size. Good luck.

 

Dave

Edited September 3, 2017 by dave moore

[IanR]

Getting nearer to messing it up!! Card templates made up to get the sizing and spacings right. Perhaps more curve and a slightly bigger spacing?? Anyone care to offer an opinion whilst I'm at the paper letters taped on stage!! (I do fully appreciate that it'll never be completely right to everyone!) The dots after the letters, most painted thesedays are round, but some of the period footage shows both round and square. Likewise, the drop shadow, same both sides, both forward etc. Was there a rule of thumb or was it purely regional down to the painters discretion?

Cheers, Ian.

 

[IanR]

I spread the lettering out a bit more and went for it......

We are quite pleased with the results, though it isn't as smooth and 'fluid' as a professional job, you buggers make it look easy!!

Ian.

[MtB]

Actually that looks very pleasing to my eye.

Shame about the one back-to-front letter though....

 

 

 

 

 

.... Only kidding!!!!

[roland elsdon]

When ( ha) we get the engine hole  doors on Fenny redone we are going to repaint exactly like that . Currently she has the incorrect Fulbourne livery. It'll save us a fortune on paint and lettering!!!

[MtB]

A porthole in the engine 'ole. That's rather unusual isn't it? 

Or have I just not been paying attention?