Roses and Castles - a southern tradition?

[Pen n Ink]

Talking to someone over the weekend who ought to know about these things, I was told that "Roses and Castles are a Southern tradition and wouldn't be recognised North of the Midlands".

 

Is this true? Just find it unlikely...

[Ray T]

Depends what you call North of the Midlands. William Hodgson was a very prolific painter for the Anderton Company which was originally based at Anderton but moved to Middleport in the 1880's and also had a depot at Stoke on Trent. The Mersey Weaver Carrying Co. took over the whole firm just after WWII and closed its own dock , continuing to use the old Anderton Company Dock. The yard was busy until 1958. These were all R & C decorated boats.

 

There was also the "Knobstick" style from the Cheshire area.

 

The BCN boats tended to have Scrolls and geometric designs on the back doors, no castles on the boats.

 

There will be more learned folks along soon, que Mr Moore.

Edited May 26, 2015 by Ray T

[Québec]

Popcorn and deckchairs ready!

[Derek R.]

You certainly wouldn't have found them on the Leeds & Liverpool, and not much North of Manchester. But pretty much widespread South thereof.

[Pluto]

As always with historical 'facts', you also have to appreciate change over time, where traditions slowly changed and their influence widened. The Shropshire Union and the narrow canals around Manchester tended not to have roses and castles, their decoration originally being more influenced by coastal traditions, which were also found on the wide northern waterways. The Trent & Mersey boats did seem to use roses and castles, possibly because of the influence of pottery painters arounds Stoke. On northern narrow canals, roses and castles seem to have become more widely used after the end of the SUC having its own carrying department in 1921. Up until that time, the decoration was usually done in the dockyard, rather than by boaters. When the tradition began is perhaps difficult to identify as little in the way of illustration survives prior to the use of photography from the 1880s onwards.

[Laurence Hogg]

One fact I was told many years ago by more than one person was that as you travel north, the more realistic the roses become. I have to say that I tend to agree with this as painting in the Stoke on Trent area certainly seems more realistic than down south. There is however one thorn in the bush which is the BCN with its almost Portugese / Mediterraen boat decorations of lozenges, sunwheels, alien shapes etc which match none of the other mainstream tradition..

[Québec]

One fact I was told many years ago by more than one person was that as you travel north, the more realistic the roses become. I have to say that I tend to agree with this as painting in the Stoke on Trent area certainly seems more realistic than down south. There is however one thorn in the bush which is the BCN with its almost Portugese / Mediterraen boat decorations of lozenges, sunwheels, alien shapes etc which match none of the other mainstream tradition..

 

Wondering if the skill / realism around Stoke-on-Trent is connected to painting/decorating pottery. Likely to be some connection.

[Derek R.]

I would not go so far as to say William Hodgson was the moving light in the roses he painted, and which spread as the 'Knobstick' style, but his other artwork of flora and fauna was extremely realistic. He was a prolific painter, and as stated in one of Tony Lewery's books, he not only painted screens, but almost every surface within his own house. Though I do not believe he was employed in any pottery making concern. It might also be noted that floral work was in vogue such that furniture and glassware (mirrors particularly) often carried sprays of flowers. Which came first - the chicken or the egg?

 

Popcorn anyone?

Edited May 26, 2015 by Derek R.

[Speedwheel]

The BCN boats tended to have Scrolls and geometric designs on the back doors, no castles on the boats.

 

Not necessarily historically accurate but ......

 

[dave moore]

Roy Phillips doors, or at least the centre panels. I worked with him in the early 80s and was reunited recently at the Titford Rally. We spent most of the time bemoaning the lo tak tapes we both used then. The modern offerings are not what they once were, much like the boats that frequent the cut these days.....

 

Dave

[Speedwheel]

Roy Phillips doors, or at least the centre panels.

They are indeed. I have a substantial collection of Roy's work.

We spent most of the time bemoaning the lo tak tapes we both used then.

 

Some things don't change. Had a similar conversation with him the other week.

[FadeToScarlet]

Not many roses and castles out west either, as far as I can tell. Severn and Canal didn't, but it looks like a couple of the private carriers did, with castle panels on the cabin sides and doors.

[Laurence Hogg]

Not many roses and castles out west either, as far as I can tell. Severn and Canal didn't, but it looks like a couple of the private carriers did, with castle panels on the cabin sides and doors.

 

You will find that many of the boats in the Severn area had two castle panels on the cabin sides in some cases, also the boats carried other decorative designs using other structures or common seen items, ie "Players" head. Cant still post pictures for support as site wont accept,

[Ray T]

Out of interest I've found this picture in "Canal Recollections"

 

Image (13)

 

Caption reads:

"Boats entering the Kidsgrove end of Harecastle Tunnel, Trent & Mersey Canal, circa 1930."

 

Whilst unable to see the sides of the boat, the back doors appear to owe the decoration more to the BCN.

 

Also of interest is the use of the cabin or side strings (as I've also heard them referred to as).

 

Oh and goodness me, horror of horrors, the lad is steering from the counter.

Edited May 29, 2015 by Ray T

[Mick Poyser]

As far as I can see the boat is in a train about to be pulled through the tunnel by electric tug, the engine is not running therefore the prop is not turning and trying to steer would have no purpose.

[Ray T]

As far as I can see the boat is in a train about to be pulled through the tunnel by electric tug, the engine is not running therefore the prop is not turning and trying to steer would have no purpose.

 

My last sentence was a weak attempt at humour!

Edited May 29, 2015 by Ray T

[Mick Poyser]

Fair enough Ray.

 

The chaps on the boat once in the tunnel would probable go below and cook some breaky on an solid fuel stove, which today is a no no, however, I do find it astounding that steering through the tunnel sat on a suicide seat is deemed as acceptable.

[Laurence Hogg]

Out of interest I've found this picture in "Canal Recollections"

 

Image (13)

 

Caption reads:

"Boats entering the Kidsgrove end of Harecastle Tunnel, Trent & Mersey Canal, circa 1930."

 

Whilst unable to see the sides of the boat, the back doors appear to owe the decoration more to the BCN.

 

Also of interest is the use of the cabin or side strings (as I've also heard them referred to as).

 

Oh and goodness me, horror of horrors, the lad is steering from the counter.

Those boats are Anderton Company boats and have been painted at the Anderton dock in Middleport Stoke on Trent. The fore end shown has two black discs denoting it is a "Fly boat".

The decoration on the cabin doors and the style of the pointed panel is a variation the dock used and can be seen on quite a few pictures, Harold Hood the foreman was particularly keen on scumbled work.

Edited May 29, 2015 by Laurence Hogg