Why buy new?

[Chertsey]

Two threads running at the moment have prompted me to wonder about this. Lots of people on this forum seem to have had their boats new-built for them; some are very happy, and others have had greater or lesser tales of woe...

 

I've never been able to see the attraction of buying new - unless you want something incredibly specialised and have ridiculous amounts of money to throw at it. These seem to me to be some of the advantages of buying second hand:

1. It's cheaper: you get more boat for the same money. If it's not exactly what you want, you can spend the money you've saved on modifications. You don't know exactly what you want anyway until you've actually had the boat a few months/years.

2. You can see what you're getting - and if you can't, your surveyor can, and if he doesn't, then you have some comeback against him.

3. All new boats/cars/houses will have teething troubles - let someone else have had the grief. Lots of boats on the second hand market are only a year or two old - still effectively new but old enough to have had their niggles sorted out.

4. You don't have to wait so long for a boat that already exists. OK, it might take a while to find one you really like, but you're learning in the process too, getting new ideas, seeing what to look out for.

5. There are hundreds, if not thousands, of boats on the market at any given time. I can't believe the most common claim that getting a new boat built is the only way of getting what you want - especially as they all seem to turn out pretty much the same in the end.

6. By buying an existing boat, you're avoiding squeezing an additional one onto the system, with all the associated pressures on moorings, prices, marina developments etc. After all, when people fail to sell their second hand boats, they very rarely remove them from the system; they're still taking up a mooring, just not being used.

7. Following on from that, it saves a potentially good boat going to waste. It saves the environmental costs of manufacturing a new one.

 

None of this is to criticise people here who have bought new boats - I'm just interested in the reasons on both sides. So, what's the other side of the story?

[carlt]

Having worked as a boat fitter I agree with every point you've made. The snagging list on new boats would be unacceptable on most building developments (and I was working at the 'top end' of the market).

 

The price per foot is ridiculous at the higher end of the market compared to the equivalent professions in the building trade and the delivery dates are unreasonable. Especially when, in most cases, the difference between 'off the peg' and 'bespoke' is the quality of the filler used.

 

I fell out with the builder I worked for because his catchphrase was 'box it off, that'll make a nice little cupboard' when referring to anything remotely boat shaped inside. I was working on fitting out a big DB when it came to the room at the back. I wanted to bend planks into the stern for the floor, following the curves of the boat and highlight the shape of the rear end. It would have been a beautiful room and about 2 weeks work. He made me buid up the floor to make it flat and level, and box off the back curves. It ended up as a box shaped room, instead of boat shaped, I used more materials than my idea and it took two weeks to do.

 

Buy second hand and employ a craftsman to change it to your needs, if necessary.

Edited March 3, 2007 by carlt

[Freetochat]

Some very good points to ponder. They all sound extremely good sense!

[Guest]

I bought our fist NB secondhand after a survey. It was a very good buy and introduced us nicely to the world of narrowboats. We did some improvements which made it much better, and on selling we "got our money back." Buying a new fully fitted boat wasn't an option for us but we were able to buy a sailaway. We were able to fit it out for almost exactly the amount that we sold the previous boat for. Even if I had the money, I would find it hard to justify the cost of a newly built complete boat. If I wasn't going to fit it out myself, I would consider buying a sailaway from a reputable builder, and then paying an individual to fit it out under my careful scrutiny.

[John Orentas]

Additionally you will get the opportunity to try the boat out before you make an offer. Take it for a zoom down the canal for a few miles, make a cup of tea, remove the covers and stand over the engine whilst it is powering the boat. Take a seat in the bow while going along, does it vibrate much. When driving is it quiet enough to have a conversation at the same time, will it stop comfortably within it's own length. If you are really serious spend a night on it.

 

If the owner is reluctant to let you do all this, think about walking away.

 

When you buy a new boat you may have to take many of these things on trust.

[Supermalc]

Two threads running at the moment have prompted me to wonder about this. Lots of people on this forum seem to have had their boats new-built for them; some are very happy, and others have had greater or lesser tales of woe...

 

I've never been able to see the attraction of buying new - unless you want something incredibly specialised and have ridiculous amounts of money to throw at it. These seem to me to be some of the advantages of buying second hand:

1. It's cheaper: you get more boat for the same money. If it's not exactly what you want, you can spend the money you've saved on modifications. You don't know exactly what you want anyway until you've actually had the boat a few months/years.

2. You can see what you're getting - and if you can't, your surveyor can, and if he doesn't, then you have some comeback against him.

3. All new boats/cars/houses will have teething troubles - let someone else have had the grief. Lots of boats on the second hand market are only a year or two old - still effectively new but old enough to have had their niggles sorted out.

4. You don't have to wait so long for a boat that already exists. OK, it might take a while to find one you really like, but you're learning in the process too, getting new ideas, seeing what to look out for.

5. There are hundreds, if not thousands, of boats on the market at any given time. I can't believe the most common claim that getting a new boat built is the only way of getting what you want - especially as they all seem to turn out pretty much the same in the end.

6. By buying an existing boat, you're avoiding squeezing an additional one onto the system, with all the associated pressures on moorings, prices, marina developments etc. After all, when people fail to sell their second hand boats, they very rarely remove them from the system; they're still taking up a mooring, just not being used.

7. Following on from that, it saves a potentially good boat going to waste. It saves the environmental costs of manufacturing a new one.

 

None of this is to criticise people here who have bought new boats - I'm just interested in the reasons on both sides. So, what's the other side of the story?

 

My thoughts exactly.

[Keeping Up]

Our first boat was (very) second-hand, and I'd certainly advise any first-time buyer to go down that route even if they can afford a new one.

 

By the time we'd had her for 4 years we had completely revised our ideas about what we wanted in our dream narrowboat. Also during that time we'd found a builder who would build it for us. We'd looked at dozens of off the shelf boats, as well as newer second hand ones, but none of them was exactly what we wanted and it would not have been economic to make all the changes. So we bought our brand new and bespoke boat, spending many happy months with the builder designing and creating 'Keeping Up'

 

We know we made the right choice because we've still got her 15 years later and don't intend to change; if we were having a new boat built tomorrow we'd simply go back to the same builder (Stoke-on-Trent Boat Building) and start with the same plans but just bring them up to date.

 

Allan

[Hairy-Neil]

These seem to me to be some of the advantages of buying second hand:

 

8. No VAT to pay

[carlt]

9. You can fish out the previous owner's syringes from the bilge.

[Gary Peacock]

The only real advantage in buying new is if you want a boat built for you the way you want it. If not I don't see much point in it really you would be better saving some money and buying newish used one.

[carlt]

The only real advantage in buying new is if you want a boat built for you the way you want it. If not I don't see much point in it really you would be better saving some money and buying newish used one.

 

I do see Allan's point where, after owning a boat for a few years, you get to know exactly what you need, and you're in a position to help design your ideal boat. Though, after 24 years of boating, I still have a big pile of 'ideal boats' from various magazines or websites and am still not sure. Definitely not narrowbeam or even inland though.

[blackrose]

Two threads running at the moment have prompted me to wonder about this. Lots of people on this forum seem to have had their boats new-built for them; some are very happy, and others have had greater or lesser tales of woe...

 

I've never been able to see the attraction of buying new - unless you want something incredibly specialised and have ridiculous amounts of money to throw at it. These seem to me to be some of the advantages of buying second hand:

1. It's cheaper: you get more boat for the same money. If it's not exactly what you want, you can spend the money you've saved on modifications. You don't know exactly what you want anyway until you've actually had the boat a few months/years.

2. You can see what you're getting - and if you can't, your surveyor can, and if he doesn't, then you have some comeback against him.

3. All new boats/cars/houses will have teething troubles - let someone else have had the grief. Lots of boats on the second hand market are only a year or two old - still effectively new but old enough to have had their niggles sorted out.

4. You don't have to wait so long for a boat that already exists. OK, it might take a while to find one you really like, but you're learning in the process too, getting new ideas, seeing what to look out for.

5. There are hundreds, if not thousands, of boats on the market at any given time. I can't believe the most common claim that getting a new boat built is the only way of getting what you want - especially as they all seem to turn out pretty much the same in the end.

6. By buying an existing boat, you're avoiding squeezing an additional one onto the system, with all the associated pressures on moorings, prices, marina developments etc. After all, when people fail to sell their second hand boats, they very rarely remove them from the system; they're still taking up a mooring, just not being used.

7. Following on from that, it saves a potentially good boat going to waste. It saves the environmental costs of manufacturing a new one.

 

None of this is to criticise people here who have bought new boats - I'm just interested in the reasons on both sides. So, what's the other side of the story?

 

I agree with most of these points. I had my boat built because there aren't as many widebeams on the market and even less 12' widebeams.

However, the part about it being cheaper isn't always true. For 10 year old boats yes, but new boats less than a a couple of years old may be just as, or even more expensive. Also in my experience surveyors can miss some quite important things and you have no comeback against them when they do. There'll most probably be an exemption clause somewhere in their conditions.

 

But in general you're right.

[NB Phoenix]

You make some good points 5, 6, 7…… 8,…. and 9 (hadn’t thought of that one Carl)

 

But have you considered a sail away - self build? It can save you some money and you can recycle to a small extent if you can use some reclaimed materials.

[tomandsophie]

We bought 'Tarifa' brand new mostly because it was sooooo much cheaper. She was £58,000 almost fully-fitted. Try and find a 57 x 10'6 beautifully built widebeam for any less than £80,000 - very difficult indeed.

Also, we aren't keen on the two main styles of boats that seem to dominate the market - caravan-style fitted stuff or swanky leather-recliner type things.

So for us buying new was both much much cheaper than secondhand and it meant we got precisely the boat we wanted. No regrets!

[wrigglefingers]

Tricky one this.

 

I'm delighted with Surprise but the thought of having a new boat constantly tempts me. I spend hours designing my dreamboat in my head but (surprise, surprise) it always ends up back with the boat I have. I'd like a newer hull, I suspect the idiosyncracies of Surprise's build (8/10mm plate and diagonal bracing) might cause a less experienced surveyor than George Gibson palpitations, and i don't think I'd ever recoup what I've spent on her, but she's my home for the moment.

 

I suppose that I generally think that if I've designed it then I won't have needed to make compromises but experience is beginning to tell me that that isn't the case. Perhaps in a new boat I'd be able to balance the condensation/ventilation/freezing cold draught/mildew conundrum I'm struggling with at the moment, but I doubt my new boat would be any more complicated than this one, given the rate of equipment failure I've had. It might look shinier inside, but it'd still be outrageously untidy and I'd still have to take the rubbish out and sort the loo. The cats would still put muddy pawprints on the curtains, becasue the window (open for ventilation) is sooo much easier than the door and Ellen still wouldn't tidy up her bedroom unless I yell at her so loud I can be heard at BoA town lock. So on the whole, I don't think I'd gain anything from having a new boat built and maybe I should settle with the one have.

 

Jill

[Oliver]

...... I'm just interested in the reasons on both sides. So, what's the other side of the story?

 

Here's one view from the other side

 

1. It's cheaper: you get more boat for the same money. If it's not exactly what you want, you can spend the money you've saved on modifications........

That's what we thought - until we started looking. We ended up paying less for our bespoke boat than we would have done if we'd gone with the boat the secondhand boat which came closest to our desired layout and made the changes to layout. Even then we would have ended up with a boat which had 10 year old steel and engine and which wasn't lined out in our preferred wood.

 

...... You don't know exactly what you want anyway until you've actually had the boat a few months/years.

But we did know what we didn't want from having had a number of different hire boats and a shared ownership boat.

 

2. You can see what you're getting - and if you can't, your surveyor can, and if he doesn't, then you have some comeback against him.

True - but if you go for a Spec Boat the same applies and if you're having a new boat built and are using a surveyor, you've still got a come back.

 

3. All new boats/cars/houses will have teething troubles - let someone else have had the grief. Lots of boats on the second hand market are only a year or two old - still effectively new but old enough to have had their niggles sorted out.

Maybe we've been lucky, no teething problems with new cars/boats - never had a new house - but have had problems with old ones (due to general wear & tear and age)

 

4. You don't have to wait so long for a boat that already exists. OK, it might take a while to find one you really like, but you're learning in the process too, getting new ideas, seeing what to look out for.

Really depends on how long it takes you to find the boat, but looking at loads of boats is a very useful process to help you learn more about what's available and at what price plus you get some great ideas - both do's and don'ts.

 

5. There are hundreds, if not thousands, of boats on the market at any given time. I can't believe the most common claim that getting a new boat built is the only way of getting what you want - especially as they all seem to turn out pretty much the same in the end.

We looked at loads of secondhand boats and never came close to finding one which ticked all our boxes.

 

6. By buying an existing boat, you're avoiding squeezing an additional one onto the system, with all the associated pressures on moorings, prices, marina developments etc. After all, when people fail to sell their second hand boats, they very rarely remove them from the system; they're still taking up a mooring, just not being used.

 

7. Following on from that, it saves a potentially good boat going to waste. It saves the environmental costs of manufacturing a new one.

But we are helping to keep boatbuilders/marina owners/etc in business!!

 

I suppose the main reason we went the new build route was that we had very specific ideas about what we wanted which were derived from taking all the things we didn't like about previous boats or which had irritated us and then making sure they didn't occur. We reckoned it was easier to start from scratch than take an existing boat, gut it and then start building it to our design. We didn't have the time or the skill to do the job ourselves so we would have had to employ everybody and take on a surveyor to supervise.

 

Sure, maybe time will prove that we have got some of the ideas wrong but then we can change them in the same way as we would change stuff on a secondhand boat. When we went for our shared ownership boat, the boat we bought in to had two things on board which we thought were great at the time - bath and multifuel stove. By the time we came to get our own boat we knew two things we definitely didn't want were a bath and a stove.

 

At the time we commissioned our boat having to work for a living restricted the amount of time we could spend out on the Cut and we had our shared ownership boat to give us our canal fixes during the build.

 

We thoroughly enjoyed the whole process of having our boat built, we learnt a lot and we have had tremendous satisfaction in seeing that our design ideas have worked for us. It was the right decision for us at the time but each to their own.

[drunkensailor]

Being at the poverty spec end of the market I can say that new having looked at old and new boats, finances aside I have a foot very much in the secondhand camp.

 

1/Older boats tend to have more character. A lot of the new boats had a bit of a "date box" feel to them.

 

2/It strikes me that a lot of custom built boats are basically new boats made to look old. Why not get an old boat to begin with?

 

3/The environmental impact of building all these new boats. Actually, I think this applies to everything, not just new boats.

 

Don't get me wrong, if it's the right boat for you I'm not throwing stones, good luck! Just my observation.

 

Chris

[stuart]

I brought a new sail away due to the poor quality of second hand boats on the market in the £18-20k range. I saw so many "skips" that I really didnt feel were worth the trouble.

 

At least with new, you do get engine warranties, newer technology (ie. the engine is a newer model, more fuel efficient, easier to start, lower emissions and quieter as well)

 

 

 

Stu.

[iteldoo4me]

Having been down that 'road' of new with loads of faults,given my time over again I would have a second hand boat,as the grief and dissapointment almost took away the antcipated joys of boating.Although rectification and court cases were in my favour,Its easy to see the error of ones ways after the events have arisen.Life is a learning curve.

[whammy]

Interesting thread, I will add my two pence worth and the reason we went for new. I am a bit of a cheap skate and wanted to buy second hand cos it was cheaper at the time, we visited a lot of brokers and marinas looking for a second hand boat we were looking at a budget of about £40,000, we were looking for a live aboard as I was coming up for retirement and wanted to try a life on the ocean wave. We were very dissapointed with what we saw in the search most of the boats were very shoddy and looked uncared for and more or less abandoned to the brokers, Most of the brokers appeared to be of the cant be bothered variety, I suppose they get quite a few time wasters and could not see we were genuine buyers, anyway thats going off topic.

 

The way I see it you have to be really lucky or be in the right place at the right time to get a second hand boat that has been well cared for and looked after or maybe I am just too fussy about what I pay for what I get.

 

Anyway we bought new from the New Boat Company and have not regretted it once. Cost me an arm and a leg though but that is the cheap skate coming out again

 

[Khayamanzi]

Having hired since 1976 and reserached for many years, I had an idea of what I DID want in my boat. I scoured the 2nd hand market and didn't find anything that I liked and that fitted my spec and was beginning to think of bespoke. At the Crick Boat show 2001 I discovered that my EXACT design specification was being mass produced by New Boat Company AND at a price below my intention! In my situation, I would have been stupid not to go with them. Yes, I had snagging, (and an engine room fire on the Thames - but that's another story!) but now the boat has settled down, I am very happy and if going bespoke would only replicate the same design! I agree with the posts above, I think it's a case of what fits for you. If you are happy to make compromises or happen to be in the right place at the right time, then 2nd hand is fine -if not go new. As for the time scale, my order was in in April and the boat launched in June, (I did get a cancellation build slot though!) You also get an acceptance cruise before you sign the work off so to an extent you can try before you finally buy!

[RobinR]

An even lower environmental impact option is shared ownership and with one such owner recently selling two consecutive March weeks and a November week in a 57 ft boat built in 2003 at £250 each (i.e. £750 for all 3!), very affordable. We purchased a share of an older boat in a private scheme for £2500 plus £35 per month running contribution giving up to 4 weeks per year. The costs are minimised by self maintaince within the group. Not everyone's choice but certainly a much lower "boat footprint" on the network with at least some input to the "style and content" of the boat.