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Marina electric power


LankyStreak

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We don't live aboard our narrowboat and we choose to pay the hefty cost of a marina mooring (more than £3k a year on the K&A).

 

To me one of the big benefits of a marina mooring is that you can leave the boat connected to mains electricity (usually metered) and know that your starter and leisure batteries will be kept on a trickle or float charge which prolongs the life of the batteries and ensures they're always ready for cruising. (We've got a Victron multi-plus inverter/charger).

 

I was therefore surprised when we agreed to move to a new leisure (i.e. non-residential) marina mooring, that one of the clauses in the marina's mooring agreement says:

"All electrical leads must be disconnected from the shore supply whilst a craft is unoccupied."

This seems pretty clear. We must unplug the boat from shore power when we're not aboard. I asked the marina about this and they said: 'Yeah sign it but you can ignore that.'

 

Sadly I'm old and wise enough to be uncomfortable about signing a written agreement for this much money that says one thing when I only have a verbal assurance that I can ignore it.

 

I'm a relatively new boater. Is it usual for a marina to ask for boats to be disconnected from the mains when you're not there, so that the batteries are slowly discharging just as they would if the boat was moored on the towpath? Isn't this a bit strange when I've paid thousands a year for a marina mooring that has a dedicated mains hookup on the mooring berth?

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There is a similar clause in the moorings I am at, Here at least it is a hangover from the original wiring system .

Not long ago RCD's and RCBO's were very expensive and often several or even many boats would be on individual overload trips but all on one RCD. This meant that an earth fault on any vessel or on any connecting lead would trip all of the boats often without being noticed for some time.

I'm not saying, of course it is the case but it could well be

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I was therefore surprised when we agreed to move to a new leisure (i.e. non-residential) marina mooring, that one of the clauses in the marina's mooring agreement says:

"All electrical leads must be disconnected from the shore supply whilst a craft is unoccupied."

This seems pretty clear. We must unplug the boat from shore power when we're not aboard. I asked the marina about this and they said: 'Yeah sign it but you can ignore that.'

 

Sadly I'm old and wise enough to be uncomfortable about signing a written agreement for this much money that says one thing when I only have a verbal assurance that I can ignore it.

 

So you have two choices: Don't sign and find another mooring or sign and accept the verbal assurance.

 

Or I suppose you could try arguing it out with the marina owners and getting them to cross out and sign that clause in the contract, but is it really worth the agg?

 

Are you really concerned that they'll turn around and insist that you disconnect your boat after they just told you to ignore that clause? There's always an element of trust required in every transaction.

Edited by blackrose
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What's the evidence of your eyes -- are there no boats connected to shoreline in that marina, or lots? Does it look as though the clause is enforced or ignored?

Good question adam1uk. Before we'd even seen the Ts & Cs, when we viewed the marina we remarked about how many boats weren't connected to the shore power despite there being power points for every pontoon. My own experience is that unless a lead-acid battery is regularly kept topped up (by mains, solar, generator or whatever) it soon starts to deteriorate.

 

So you have two choices: Don't sign and find another mooring or sign and accept the verbal assurance.

 

Or I suppose you could try arguing it out with the marina owners and getting them to cross out and sign that clause in the contract, but is it really worth the agg?

 

Are you really concerned that they'll turn around and insist that you disconnect your boat after they just told you to ignore that clause? There's always an element of trust required in every transaction.

You're right of course blackrose. In an ideal world I make my own judgements about people and trust them completely on a handshake or their word unless my gut instinct says otherwise. But when you're dealing with a marina company the Ts & Cs are completely biased in their favour and contain clauses such as they can seize your boat and deny you access if they deem it necessary, and so on. Of course all legal contracts cover the worst-case scenarios but to me a mains hook-up is a normal, reasonable service for a marina mooring, not something I should have to take a chance on.

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Good question adam1uk. Before we'd even seen the Ts & Cs, when we viewed the marina we remarked about how many boats weren't connected to the shore power despite there being power points for every pontoon. My own experience is that unless a lead-acid battery is regularly kept topped up (by mains, solar, generator or whatever) it soon starts to deteriorate.

 

You're right of course blackrose. In an ideal world I make my own judgements about people and trust them completely on a handshake or their word unless my gut instinct says otherwise. But when you're dealing with a marina company the Ts & Cs are completely biased in their favour and contain clauses such as they can seize your boat and deny you access if they deem it necessary, and so on. Of course all legal contracts cover the worst-case scenarios but to me a mains hook-up is a normal, reasonable service for a marina mooring, not something I should have to take a chance on.

I suppose it depends on how much you want to moor in this marina and how much they want your money. Personalky I would delete the clause on any copies you sign, initial the deletion and pay them their fee. If they accept the fees and contract then they must hace accepted the alteration.

But maybe others will differ in their view

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I suppose it depends on how much you want to moor in this marina and how much they want your money. Personalky I would delete the clause on any copies you sign, initial the deletion and pay them their fee. If they accept the fees and contract then they must hace accepted the alteration.

But maybe others will differ in their view

That is exactly what was in my mind to do. Trouble is, decent marina moorings at a convenient location on the western K&A are in very short supply and the marina operators know this. There's a waiting list for many marinas so it's a seller's market.

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i really couldn't recommend signing a contract with a view to ignoring such a clear condition. You could leave yourself wide open should a problem arise when you leave the boat hooked up and them blaming you. It could invalidate any insurance cover you may believe you have, for instance.

 

Any marina we've left the boat at, there's been almost an assumption that we would leave the boat connected to the electricity supply.

 

Surely if they say you can ignore this condition then they should be prepared to sign a contract with that clause struck out. And it will tell you a lot if they won't.

 

If not and you really have to use that marina, then I'd suggest you need to arrange to leave the boat unconnected in your absence.

 

Good luck,

 

Bob.

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Also on the K&A very near you, interested to know which marina are you talking about if you can say (or give me a clue !). Might be able to give some feed back.

I keep my batteries topped up with a 100 watt panel - this also happily runs the fridge - as I did not want the expense/hassle of a land line.

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i really couldn't recommend signing a contract with a view to ignoring such a clear condition. You could leave yourself wide open should a problem arise when you leave the boat hooked up and them blaming you. It could invalidate any insurance cover you may believe you have, for instance.

 

Any marina we've left the boat at, there's been almost an assumption that we would leave the boat connected to the electricity supply.

 

Surely if they say you can ignore this condition then they should be prepared to sign a contract with that clause struck out. And it will tell you a lot if they won't.

 

If not and you really have to use that marina, then I'd suggest you need to arrange to leave the boat unconnected in your absence.

 

Good luck,

 

Bob.

My thoughts exactly Bob. Sadly too many people sign anything whether they agree with it or not. We had the same thing when a salesman from one of the big electricity suppliers called at our house and tried to get us to switch company. It looked good so I agreed to sign up but the signature box at the bottom said: 'I have read the Ts & Cs and accept them'. There were six pages of tiny print and when I started to read them the salesman said: 'I haven't got time to wait while you read those. Can't you just sign it like everyone else does?' I didn't sign and he went away without a new customer.

 

I think you're right though. If the marina tells me I can ignore that one clause, and I can leave my boat connected to shore power, then they shouldn't mind if I cross it out before signing.

Also on the K&A very near you, interested to know which marina are you talking about if you can say (or give me a clue !). Might be able to give some feed back.

I keep my batteries topped up with a 100 watt panel - this also happily runs the fridge - as I did not want the expense/hassle of a land line.

It's Devizes Marina (the smaller, older one at the top of the hill, not the new one at the bottom of the Caen Hill lock flight).

 

There's no doubt that solar panels are the way forward. I do plan to investigate this but with a 12V starter battery and 24V cabin electrics I've just assumed it would be complicated and hence expensive.

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Rhetorical question

 

How long do you leave the boat unattended ?

 

Any battery should be able to cope with up to three months, off charge, as long as it is left fully charged and with no load.

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Rhetorical question

 

How long do you leave the boat unattended ?

 

Any battery should be able to cope with up to three months, off charge, as long as it is left fully charged and with no load.

With no load I agree bottle. After all people leave their cars for weeks on end while they're away, and expect them to start when they return.

 

In the summer though we do often leave the boat's small 24V fridge running when we're not there which draws a few amps and because of this I prefer to keep the boat connected to shore power to avoid discharging the batteries. In winter we tend to leave a (mains) 500W oil-filled radiator on a frost thermostat as some kind of freezing protection. Obviously we couldn't do that without a shore connection. It could be argued that neither of these is essential but when we're paying for a marina mooring, why not?

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Then you do need the shoreline connected and working.sad.png

 

So the rock and a hard place, try to get the contract changed and risk refusal, take their word and take a chance.

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We don't live aboard our narrowboat and we choose to pay the hefty cost of a marina mooring (more than £3k a year on the K&A).

 

To me one of the big benefits of a marina mooring is that you can leave the boat connected to mains electricity (usually metered) and know that your starter and leisure batteries will be kept on a trickle or float charge which prolongs the life of the batteries and ensures they're always ready for cruising. (We've got a Victron multi-plus inverter/charger).

 

I was therefore surprised when we agreed to move to a new leisure (i.e. non-residential) marina mooring, that one of the clauses in the marina's mooring agreement says:

"All electrical leads must be disconnected from the shore supply whilst a craft is unoccupied."

Does that mean we now have problems with Continuous Chargers on the K&A. unsure.png

  • Greenie 2
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There's no doubt that solar panels are the way forward. I do plan to investigate this but with a 12V starter battery and 24V cabin electrics I've just assumed it would be complicated and hence expensive.

 

You could simplify using solar by adding another 12v battery to your starter battery (but leaving it so the starter motor is still only connected across 12v) that would give you in effect two 24 volt banks. Connect solar panels trough a 24v control and use a split charge relay (or a switch) so both get charged. just using 100watts of solar wouldn't be expensive. (about £150 for 165 Watts from Bimble for panel and controller )

Doesn't solve your heater during winter though.

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You could simplify using solar by adding another 12v battery to your starter battery (but leaving it so the starter motor is still only connected across 12v) that would give you in effect two 24 volt banks. Connect solar panels trough a 24v control and use a split charge relay (or a switch) so both get charged. just using 100watts of solar wouldn't be expensive. (about £150 for 165 Watts from Bimble for panel and controller )

Doesn't solve your heater during winter though.

Thanks for this Pete & Helen. A very interesting idea. It might be a tight squeeze to get a second starter battery close to the first but on reflection I think I would only need the solar panel to charge the cabin batteries. The starter battery would probably get enough charge when cruising and when we're aboard in the marina (and so connected to shore power).

 

Does that mean we now have problems with Continuous Chargers on the K&A. unsure.png

That made me laugh out loud biggrin.png

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At the risk of reopening one of the all-time CWDF arguments, would an isolation transformer relieve the marina's worries about an earth fault on board?

Hmmmm. This is pushing the boundaries of my knowledge Richard. The boat's got a galvanic isolator which supposedly protects against galvanic corrosion but I'm guessing this isn't the same thing.

 

[5 minutes later. . . ]

 

I've just Googled isolation transformers and I've learnt a lot in a short time. I agree this does seem to be what's required but these transformers look big and expensive, and installing one looks challenging even for an electrician. As it is my Victron multi-plus inverter/charger and the boat's mains panel are tucked away so neatly it looks as if the cupboard was built around the electrical installation rather than the electrics being installed in the cupboard. I think you're confirming what John V said above (#2) that the marina's concern about an unattended boat left connected to shore power is that an earth fault on my boat could trip all my neighbours' electrics. Is that right?

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Hmmmm. This is pushing the boundaries of my knowledge Richard. The boat's got a galvanic isolator which supposedly protects against galvanic corrosion but I'm guessing this isn't the same thing.

 

[5 minutes later. . . ]

 

I've just Googled isolation transformers and I've learnt a lot in a short time. I agree this does seem to be what's required but these transformers look big and expensive, and installing one looks challenging even for an electrician. As it is my Victron multi-plus inverter/charger and the boat's mains panel are tucked away so neatly it looks as if the cupboard was built around the electrical installation rather than the electrics being installed in the cupboard. I think you're confirming what John V said above (#2) that the marina's concern about an unattended boat left connected to shore power is that an earth fault on my boat could trip all my neighbours' electrics. Is that right?

An isolation transformer is bulky, expensive and should be installed on land rather than on the boat but technically it is the best solution. I don't know if any marinas offer this facility.

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A lot (possibly now most) supplies that you are likely to come across nowadays, have a separate RCBO for each outlet.

(an RCBO is a combined overload trip and earth fault sensing trip in one module)

They have become so cheap over the last few years that it is not worth the saving to install one RCD and several trips as before.

 

Transformer isolation? I doubt you will ever come across that as boatyard or marina installation, you would have to allow a separate transformer for each boat otherwise you would get no benefit and the cost would be incredible

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Hmmmm. This is pushing the boundaries of my knowledge Richard. The boat's got a galvanic isolator which supposedly protects against galvanic corrosion but I'm guessing this isn't the same thing.

 

[5 minutes later. . . ]

 

I've just Googled isolation transformers and I've learnt a lot in a short time. I agree this does seem to be what's required but these transformers look big and expensive, and installing one looks challenging even for an electrician. As it is my Victron multi-plus inverter/charger and the boat's mains panel are tucked away so neatly it looks as if the cupboard was built around the electrical installation rather than the electrics being installed in the cupboard. I think you're confirming what John V said above (#2) that the marina's concern about an unattended boat left connected to shore power is that an earth fault on my boat could trip all my neighbours' electrics. Is that right?

 

Just wondering if you've seen my 2kVA Jenstar Isolation transformer is for sale in "For Sale and Wanted" on here, or alternatively via eBay (see my link in the "For Sale" post). Now that could be a cheap solution for you! It's a good transformer provided you can cope with a 2kVA throughput rather than the more usual 3.6kVA provided by the Victron or Airlink ones.

 

It could be left by the power post as it's in a marina but might need putting in a weatherproof box or I suppose its steel case could be sealed and weatherproof painted (blacking!) quite effectively. NB the transformer itself is epoxy encapsulated inside the case.

Perhaps also add a chain and padlock to prevent it going walkies (hopefully less likely in the marina).

 

Richard

Edited by rjasmith
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A lot (possibly now most) supplies that you are likely to come across nowadays, have a separate RCBO for each outlet.

(an RCBO is a combined overload trip and earth fault sensing trip in one module)

They have become so cheap over the last few years that it is not worth the saving to install one RCD and several trips as before.

 

Transformer isolation? I doubt you will ever come across that as boatyard or marina installation, you would have to allow a separate transformer for each boat otherwise you would get no benefit and the cost would be incredible

If used in the boat, a small and inexpensive isolation transformer would suffice if the only demand is to charge the batteries. A marina operator would have to allow for the fact that some boaters would run heavier loads, so that a large expensive transformer would be needed for each boat.

 

Anyone with an EOGM or other private mooring could usefully have the isolation transformer on the bank. I have a suitable transformer, which is like a builder's site transformer but with a 230V output. I've no boat or mooring to go with it, but it's handy for use with power tools.

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My thoughts exactly Bob. Sadly too many people sign anything whether they agree with it or not. We had the same thing when a salesman from one of the big electricity suppliers called at our house and tried to get us to switch company. It looked good so I agreed to sign up but the signature box at the bottom said: 'I have read the Ts & Cs and accept them'. There were six pages of tiny print and when I started to read them the salesman said: 'I haven't got time to wait while you read those. Can't you just sign it like everyone else does?' I didn't sign and he went away without a new customer.

 

I think you're right though. If the marina tells me I can ignore that one clause, and I can leave my boat connected to shore power, then they shouldn't mind if I cross it out before signing.

It's Devizes Marina (the smaller, older one at the top of the hill, not the new one at the bottom of the Caen Hill lock flight).

 

There's no doubt that solar panels are the way forward. I do plan to investigate this but with a 12V starter battery and 24V cabin electrics I've just assumed it would be complicated and hence expensive.

I just have solar on the 24 volt ones. The start one seams to last OK

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