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Trouble finding the right cooker


BlueStringPudding

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The 500mm cookers i posted should just slot into a 500mm base unit then all you would need to do is hook it back up to the gas. The 500mm measurement is the front of the cooker, they don't have sides as such and thats why they fit into a 500mm base unit ( before you ask how 500 fits into 500 ) :P

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Yep, is a solution, probably not the best solution though. It does seem to be an unusual cooker location though. I know Black Prince ex (and current) hire boats are very numerous, but they do have kitchens on the small side. I reckon your options are (in order of preference)

 

1) go for a 240V ignition model. This opens up the choice to a wider number of cookers

2) go for a secondhand, compliant, cooker.

3) go for the £550 cooker

 

I'm not sure there's that many cookers which are happy to be boxed in quite so snugly, detailed browsing of their installation manuals would reveal the situation. If none can be boxed in, then there's:

 

4) shuffle around appliances in the kitchen so you can fit a cooker of your choice.

Thanks Paul. But again I'll refer you to my post at 12.37. There's no such thing as a reshuffle of appliances. Either I find a cooker that fits or there's a very expensive and time costuming gutting of the entire galley, gas system and electrics.

The 500mm cookers i posted should just slot into a 500mm base unit then all you would need to do is hook it back up to the gas. The 500mm measurement is the front of the cooker, they don't have sides as such and thats why they fit into a 500mm base unit ( before you ask how 500 fits into 500 ) :P

What is a base unit? Try as I might I can't find either diagrams or videos online to explain what a built in cooker has to fit into. Is it shelves or brackets or some other support? Any base unit would be a new construction and would have to be built in my galley so I need to know before making a purchase. Does it just sit there and hold its own weight? That be ideal, I wouldn't care if the sides are bare steel or purple polka dot! But the lack of clearance of high walls would also have to be acceptable.

Well if the Zanussi manual writers are following normal convention, then yes the basement / boat restriction is only referring to RoI regs, as the whole comment is contained within the paragraph / bullet point starting 'For appliances installed in the Republic...'

 

If they really meant to cover the whole of the EU then that restriction should have had its own paragraph.

 

Unfortunately the Zanussi also has space requirements either side. Under Location of appliance at the end of p19 it says:

 

My bold. The accompanying picture at the top of p20 assumes that you can meet the +7mm requirement, so it doesn't represent your installation.

 

It looks likely to be buried somewhere in all freestanding cooker instructions as MtB says.

 

However, as you point out, the sides of the alcove are protected with fireboard & your boat has passed every BSS, so maybe a call to BSS office to see if you can get some proper guidance on your installation that you can wave at future inspectors.

 

eta Indesit have exactly the same requirements as Hotpoint (unsurprising as they're the same company).

Great advice. Thanks. I'll give someone a call about it in the week. This isn't a unique set up which is why I cannot accept it can't pass a BSS. My brother's boat is a Goldsborough. His cooker has full height walls on two sides with no clearance. He passed his BSS in Banbury just a few months ago. Mine has passed all safety regs for 17 years. Edited by BlueStringPudding
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Built in cooker: basically, its 2 parts, the hob and the oven/grill/double oven. A built in hob sits in a cutaway in the worktop, thus not exposing any of its edges (if you created a "gap" to site a standalone appliance in the middle of a worktop, you'd leave 2x edges which would need to be trimmed and sealed or would otherwise absorb moisture (eventually)).

 

Underneath the worktop in a conventional kitchen, is a bunch of base units, eg cupboards, drawers. One can also buy an appliance housing base unit, which is basically a fancy, expensive, sturdy shelf that the built-in oven unit would sit on. Link takes you to B&Q's website to show a typical example.

 

http://www.diy.com/nav/rooms/kitchens/kitchen-cabinets/appliance_housing_cabinets/Cooke-and-Lewis-White-Oven-Housing-Cabinet-600mm-10186910

 

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Edited by Paul C
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I've not yet managed to find the installation instructions for the particularly expensive Stoves built in cooker being discussed, but I have found this from another Stoves built in hob:

 

http://www.stoves.co.uk/uploadedFiles/Shared_Resources/Documents/Stoves/Manual/SGH600C.pdf Page 13 clearances & dimensions includes:

 

 

 

A minimum distance of 78mm should be maintained between the hob and any side walls / combustible surface. Surfaces which are non-combustible, or are protected with suitable non-combustible material, may have reduced clearances. Refer to New World for guidance. We recommend ceramic tiling for the rear wall directly behind the hob. No shelf or overhang of combustible material should be closer than 650mm above the hob.

 

Again, my bold.

I suggest it's likely that the 500mm built in unit will come with similar recommendations. I would also argue that the non-combustible fireboard covering in BSP's installation is exactly what these folk are talking about to allow reduced clearances, and by extension so would Zanussi or Hotpoint on the (much simpler to fit) stand alone units.
eta - what the BSS actually says on this. Part 8 covers appliances and flues. The first requirement is:

25. All appliances must be designed, installed and maintained in a way that minimises the risks of explosion or of fire starting and spreading.

The relevant check would appear to be 8.4:

8.4 Protection against fire risks from appliance installations

 

8.4.1 Are appliances and surrounding surfaces clear of signs of heat damage and leaking fuel?

 

Check all appliances and all their surrounding surfaces for signs of heat damage and leaking fuel.

 

Appliances and all their surrounding surfaces must not show signs of:

· scorching, blistering or discolouration; or,

· fuel leakage; or,

· smoke or soot deposits; or,
· heat damage or deterioration to appliance structure.
Applicability – this check applies to all fuel-burning appliances

8.4.2 Are all curtains, blinds and other textile materials near to appliances free of heat damage?
Check all curtains, blinds and other textile materials near appliances for signs of heat damage.
Curtains, blinds and other textile materials near all appliances must not show signs of heat damage such as scorching or burning.

Applicability - this check applies to curtains, blinds and other textile materials near all fuel-burning appliances

Reading this, I would suggest that the lack of scorching of the surrounding fireboard & ceramic tiles is what allows for a BSS pass despite the current installation almost certainly not following the manufacturer's instructions to the letter (mainly because most manufacturers assume anything next to the hob will be flammable because house & flat kitchens tend to be built out of sawdust).
Personally, I'd fit the Hotpoint, but then I'm confident enough to do the jet swap myself given the clear instructions. Obviously BSP would probably need to add in the cost of getting a Gas Safe bod to do that for peace of mind, but there's a good £200 leeway in the prices being quoted to pay for that.
Edited by Lampyrichard
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A built in oven unit basically needs just a shelf to sit on at an appropriate height. So you should be able to fit a suitable shelf between the vertical panels either side of the existing cooker.

 

With a separate oven and hob you could fit the oven where the cooker is. Haver you considered just fitting a new section of worktop over the oven and then fitting the hob above the fridge?

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Just to add a quick summary for anyone else looking, or searching in the future, here's what I see as the options still on the table.

 

The Hotpoint and Zanussi are standard 500mm freestanding cookers with battery igniters, the Stoves is built in and has 12V connection to the boat.

 

Hotpoint HAG 51X Zanussi ZCG563FX Stoves 500 DIT

 

Unit cost (delivered) £300 £338 £480

Burner conversion kit £6.92 £? NA

Cabinet NA NA £82

Installation £? £? £?

Big Ring (x1) 2.6kW 3kW £2.2kW

Medium Ring (x2) 1.9kW 1.65kW 1.5kW

Grill 2.5kW 2.4kW 1.6kW

Oven 2.6kW 2.2kW 1.8kW

 

BSP, note that the Hotpoint has the biggest grill & oven burners of the lot despite being the cheapest:-)

 

edited because I forgot I can't paste tables!

Edited by Lampyrichard
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Can't say I have considered fitting a new worktop. But if BSS regs tell me I can't use one of the freestanding cookers then I see nothing to be gained from installing a separate hob and oven. I'd install a single piece built in cooker instead, hopefully using your advice (David) about of needing to create a shelf for it. Thanks.

 

What's with everyone's fixation on a separate hob and oven!? Seems like unnecessary extra work with zero gain over a single piece appliance.

Edited by BlueStringPudding
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BSP, note that the Hotpoint has the biggest grill & oven burners of the lot despite being the cheapest:-)

Thanks for that summary. It's also got some sort of self cleaning coating thing going on. And it's black (which suits me).

 

I'll report back when I know if it'll keep my BSS dude happy. If it does it could be a great option for other boaters too.

 

And yes, I'd pay my local boatyard fellers to change the jets on it for me. But that's okay because I'd want them to also replace any out of date piping at the same time since my BSS is due.

Basically a base unit is a cupboard for housing a built in cooker, at worst you would have to take out the side panel corridor side, base unit is screwed to the bulkhead back and left side.this is what it looks like - http://www.wickes.co.uk/invt/193219

Thanks Goody. That's clear. :) I would however, need to replace the side panel or similar as it stops saucepan handles sticking out into the corridor / protects gormless people from putting hands or clothing against the hot hob. So I'd need to be sure that didn't reduce the width available for either the cooker or the corridor. Edited by BlueStringPudding
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Thanks Goody. That's clear. smile.png I would however, need to replace the side panel or similar as it stops saucepan handles sticking out into the corridor / protects gormless people from putting hands or clothing against the hot hob. So I'd need to be sure that didn't reduce the width available for either the cooker or the corridor.

you could always refit the side panel onto the base unit :P

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Thanks for that summary. It's also got some sort of self cleaning coating thing going on. And it's black (which suits me).

 

I'll report back when I know if it'll keep my BSS dude happy. If it does it could be a great option for other boaters too.

 

And yes, I'd pay my local boatyard fellers to change the jets on it for me. But that's okay because I'd want them to also replace any out of date piping at the same time since my BSS is due.

Thanks Goody. That's clear. smile.png I would however, need to replace the side panel or similar as it stops saucepan handles sticking out into the corridor / protects gormless people from putting hands or clothing against the hot hob. So I'd need to be sure that didn't reduce the width available for either the cooker or the corridor.

It's certainly got me thinking it's about time I sorted my kitchen out. At the moment I can cook a pizza about 1 go in 3, the other 2 I get glorified warm dough & cheese:-(

Edited by Lampyrichard
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I've reread my BSS destructions and then talked through my galley set up with a BSS examiner today. And I'm confident that not only is the way my galley's laid out, clearances, vents and fireboarding safe and within BSS regulations; but so are my choices of 50cm freestanding cookers to use in that space.

 

Thanks for your help everyone. Hope this proves helpful for you too, Lampy. :) (Although I appreciate you might have a very different galley set up to me)

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I've reread my BSS destructions and then talked through my galley set up with a BSS examiner today. And I'm confident that not only is the way my galley's laid out, clearances, vents and fireboarding safe and within BSS regulations; but so are my choices of 50cm freestanding cookers to use in that space.

 

Thanks for your help everyone. Hope this proves helpful for you too, Lampy. smile.png (Although I appreciate you might have a very different galley set up to me)

Hurrah!

 

Will you update us on which one you go for & how it performs as well then?

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  • 4 weeks later...

You must be getting awfully hungry and have lost an unhealthy amount of weight by now which I'm sure your mum wouldn't approve BSP if you still haven't bought a cooking stove.

Edited by bizzard
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It will be due to the effect where the gas flames spread out from the sides under a large saucepan on the hob and set fire to cupboards at the side higher than worktop height.

 

If your walls are fireproof enough then it may be safe. You might also have a problem getting it past a BSS if the BSS bod is tuned in to this risk, or sees the installation manual. Appliances must be installed in accordance with the instructions. Many are not though and no-one notices wink.png

 

MtB

P.S. forgot to say, similar gap requirements probably apply to all gas cookers.

 

Mike it does, its too common for words, its mostly to do with heat dissapation, especially for non fan powered ovens. But I've seen such installations in bedsits, caravans/campers etc, even new ones, . I would have thought the installations in student bedsit accomodation would have failed tests, but he-ho, apparently not !

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You must be getting awfully hungry and have lost an unhealthy amount of weight by now which I'm sure your mum wouldn't approve BSP if you still haven't bought a cooking stove.

:D I'm still using my knackered cooker for now. The boatyard near me have no capacity to install the new cooker till after Easter so I'll order the new one nearer the time.

I'm going for the Hotpoint HAG51K (think that's what it was called) with replacement jets

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biggrin.png I'm still using my knackered cooker for now. The boatyard near me have no capacity to install the new cooker till after Easter so I'll order the new one nearer the time.

I'm going for the Hotpoint HAG51K (think that's what it was called) with replacement jets

 

What is that white thing that is on the right hand side of the cooker, between the cooker and partition wall? If that piece of whateveritis could be removed, that would give you some additional width.

 

I don't know if anyone answered your question about built-in cookers, but the difference between free standing units and built-in units is that the free standing ones have decorative side panels and the built-in ones do not. Obviously this affects the width of the cooker. A built-in unit could easily be installed in your space, requiring a minimal amount of carpentry work to "build it in" - very simple job. Then there is also the option of a drop-in unit. A built-in unit is generally designed to be, well, built-in, which is why people kept suggesting component systems to you, because that is where your best selection lies. A drop-in unit, on the other hand, would be like the Hotpoint you like except with no side panels. Using a drop-in essentially just saves you the cost of the side panels because the top of the cooker remains the same size.

 

You really should see if that white thing to the right of the existing cooker is something that can be removed. It would give you a lot more flexibility.

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Thanks. However as I mentioned up in post #64 the issue has been resolved without me needing to do anything to my galley. The set up has passed years of BSS assessments and was a hire boat, so I was sceptical that the style of the galley itself would suddenly be unable to pass the BSS. The set up being perfectly safe with my chosen cooker (once the correct jets are in place of course) has been confirmed by a BSS inspector now.

 

smile.png

Edited by BlueStringPudding
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