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looking for a solicitor to over seeing buying process - any suggestions


Bettie Boo

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There are marine lawyers out there I think I found ours advertising in Motor Boat Monthly.

 

The reason I needed legal advice was that we had purchased a £60,000+ boat and had a 'good' survey, within the next month It needed over £20,000 spending on it.

 

Spoke in some 'depth' with the surveyor who said he could not comment on what he could not see, and, as stipulated in his report he would not lift carpets, look into to cupboards if there were clothes etc in them, he did not check the oil in the outdrives as it would requiring a 'nut' removing and that is 'mechanical' etc, etc.

 

The lawyer said we had no case and the surveyor was correct in that all this was in the 'small print'.

 

Have never had a survey since even on boats costing £30,000+

Use common sense - what is the 'state' of the boat, wiring, engine hole etc, is there a previous survey that reads 'ok' (example - if a 2000 boat with a 10mm base plate had a survey in 2006 and the base plate had only lost 0.15mm why should it suddenly lose enough in the last 6 or 7 years to be a concern ?)

 

I'm with the 'no survey' faction - save the £1000 (slippage and survey) - it can go along way to repairing faults that you find in everyday use.

Edited by Alan de Enfield
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Most times I have had a survey done I have managed to use it as a lever to reduce the price paid for the boat, once by 20% and I have always got at least the cost of the survey off.

Word of warning re hull thickness I have seen boats that have lost 0.1mm in 15 years, 5 years later they has pits of over 1mm due to galvanic action and newly install AC power systems.

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There are marine lawyers out there I think I found ours advertising in Motor Boat Monthly.

 

The reason I needed legal advice was that we had purchased a £60,000+ boat and had a 'good' survey, within the next month It needed over £20,000 spending on it.

 

Spoke in some 'depth' with the surveyor who said he could not comment on what he could not see, and, as stipulated in his report he would not lift carpets, look into to cupboards if there were clothes etc in them, he did not check the oil in the outdrives as it would requiring a 'nut' removing and that is 'mechanical' etc, etc.

 

The lawyer said we had no case and the surveyor was correct in that all this was in the 'small print'.

 

Have never had a survey since even on boats costing £30,000+

Use common sense - what is the 'state' of the boat, wiring, engine hole etc, is there a previous survey that reads 'ok' (example - if a 2000 boat with a 10mm base plate had a survey in 2006 and the base plate had only lost 0.15mm why should it suddenly lose enough in the last 6 or 7 years to be a concern ?)

 

I'm with the 'no survey' faction - save the £1000 (slippage and survey) - it can go along way to repairing faults that you find in everyday use.

 

Sorry to but in again.

 

I'm with you on this...as I had a boat surveyed..and then it nearly sank 2 weeks later.

There was 'small print'...about things only being 'on the day'.....

Also...'minor issues' were actually major....but then..the surveyor has to balance between covering his backside if you get nasty..but continuing to achieve sales for boat yards and brokers that he regularly works for.

 

Messy business I'm afraid.

 

No full surveys for me again...

I would only have a hull survey...and even then I would INSIST on being there.

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If you like one of these privately advertised boats enough to make an offer, why don't you say to the seller you want to proceed through a broker. You pay their fees, (around 5 or 6 % +vat), which is what you would pay a solicitor anyway (probably but not sure!) The broker can then use their experience to see if there is enough of a paper trail to make the sale viable. The broker can make money on a sale they wouldn't of had, the seller gets the full asking price and you get some comeback through the brokerage firm and a nice warm fuzzy feeling!

 

If the seller objects, then they have something to hide and you walk away.

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Gentlemen,

 

You are missing the point ( What follows is not the point, for that scroll down)

 

I and Betty are novices, first time buyers, sheep to be shorn, pigeons to be plucked, niether of us are stupid, but this time around we simply do not know enough to ensure we get a fair and honest deal.

 

Some on this thread have stated that in some cases it's not even possible to confirm that a seller actually owns the boat, others have said only deal through a broker, which is fine if the boat we're interested in is going through a broker.

If not, we're stuffed.

 

When we go out to look at the next boat I will cheerfully pay petrol money, beer and dinner to any member in good standing here willing to come along and give us his or her opinion on the value of the boat. That's how desperate we are.

 

I take the same view as Shakespeare did when it comes to lawyers ( 2 Henry VI 4.2.59) "First thing we do, let's kill all the lawyers"

 

I regard them , along with hedge fund managers, Financiers and CEO's of the Canal and River Trust, a so-called "charity" ( current salary in the region of £240,000 a year) as overpaid vermin.

 

However, ( and this is the point). If we involve a Lawyer, and it all goes seriously tit's-up ... I get to march into the bastards office, punch him in the face, and sue. That;s the point.

 

Does anyone here know of a half way decent lawyer?

 

Dave

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Gentlemen,

 

You are missing the point ( What follows is not the point, for that scroll down)

 

I and Betty are novices, first time buyers, sheep to be shorn, pigeons to be plucked, niether of us are stupid, but this time around we simply do not know enough to ensure we get a fair and honest deal.

 

Some on this thread have stated that in some cases it's not even possible to confirm that a seller actually owns the boat, others have said only deal through a broker, which is fine if the boat we're interested in is going through a broker.

If not, we're stuffed.

 

When we go out to look at the next boat I will cheerfully pay petrol money, beer and dinner to any member in good standing here willing to come along and give us his or her opinion on the value of the boat. That's how desperate we are.

 

I take the same view as Shakespeare did when it comes to lawyers ( 2 Henry VI 4.2.59) "First thing we do, let's kill all the lawyers"

 

I regard them , along with hedge fund managers, Financiers and CEO's of the Canal and River Trust, a so-called "charity" ( current salary in the region of £240,000 a year) as overpaid vermin.

 

However, ( and this is the point). If we involve a Lawyer, and it all goes seriously tit's-up ... I get to march into the bastards office, punch him in the face, and sue. That;s the point.

 

Does anyone here know of a half way decent lawyer?

 

Dave

 

The vast majority of fist time buyers (nearly) all I would say buy there boats with out the aid of a lawyer (we didn't use one and we were first time buyers) so I don't see the relevance of that point.

 

I also don't see the relevance of the CEO of CRT's salary, and BTW most of the things I have heard about him on here (including what people on here who have actually met him have said) would indicate he is far from 'vermin' but quite the opposite in fact.

Edited by The Dog House
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Dave, people here have given you good advice, to the best of their knowlege.

 

You state:

 

"When we go out to look at the next boat I will cheerfully pay petrol money, beer and dinner to any member in good standing here willing to come along and give us his or her opinion on the value of the boat. That's how desperate we are".

 

I know a little of boats, when we were looking for one we spent some 18 months searching, this enabled us to identify "The Good, the Bad and the Ugly" and get a fair idea of values of different craft.

 

Going by the tone of your entry above, I for one, would be unwilling to accompany you in case I incurred your wrath and was added to your list of "vermin".

 

I feel what you want doesn't appear to exist in the canal environment. As I said in a previous post Google "Marine Laywers" and take your pick.

 

Best wishes with your boat purchase.

Edited by Ray T
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However, ( and this is the point). If we involve a Lawyer, and it all goes seriously tit's-up ... I get to march into the bastards office, punch him in the face, and sue. That;s the point.

 

And that is exactly why I wouldn't want to help. March into the solicitor's office and punch him in the face? What sort of world do you live in?

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I regard them , along with hedge fund managers, Financiers and CEO's of the Canal and River Trust, a so-called "charity" ( current salary in the region of £240,000 a year) as overpaid vermin.

 

However, ( and this is the point). If we involve a Lawyer, and it all goes seriously tit's-up ... I get to march into the bastards office, punch him in the face, and sue. That;s the point.

 

 

I don't like this new guy...already.

Hope I don't bump into him on the canal!

Sounds like the sort who has paid so much for his shiny posh boat..that he demands to get through locks before the riff-raff.

 

We gave him our 'thoughts'....but as for accompanying him..?

 

Well...I had thought about it up to that point....

but suddenly...I have changed my mind...

 

I think..inwardly...we know how much ...we wish him well in his quest (NOT)......biggrin.png

Edited by Bobbybass
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And that is exactly why I wouldn't want to help. March into the solicitor's office and punch him in the face? What sort of world do you live in?

Well for sure he would need a solicitor then for certain..only rather than a 'marine' one it would need to be a defence lawyer....

Edited by The Dog House
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Going by the tone of your entry above, I for one, would be unwilling to accompany you in case I incurred your wrath and was added to your list of "vermin".

 

 

Quite!

 

I suspect that goes for many of us.

Does anyone here know of a half way decent lawyer?

 

If you still mean one used to supporting you through purchase of a canal boat to ensure you don't get ripped off, I think you already have your answer.

 

Nobody reading this knows of such a person, because to buy a canal boat in this way is not usual. I hesitate to say "unheard of", but this forum has a large readership, so if anyone had heard of it, I think you might know by now.

 

Why so aggressive, though?

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The short and rather harsh answer to your dilemma is

 

Don't buy a boat till you have learned a whole lot more about boats and the canals.

 

Now as for a solicitor... a solicitor is an expensive legal professional who sits on his arse and looks at legal documents. You have already learned that, bizarrely, boats have no log book or other legal document to prove ownership so in the absence of a legal document what do you expect a solicitor to do for you? If he is honest and decent all he can do is recommend that you never buy any boat.

 

There is an element of risk and a few posters on this forum have purchased bad boats and lost a lot of money.

There are two main risks...the boat is rubbish and is going to sink or otherwise cost you a fortune.(it happens with houses and cars too) A good surveyor will minimise this risk but will not eliminate it.

Second issue is fraud when the owner does not actually own the boat. This is rare but it happens.

You can do some work here. Is the boat in a marina? if so phone them and ask who is paying the bills, and also is a divorce involved?.

Are there bills for blacking or repair work? Phone the boat yard and ask who paid the bills.This is a lot more than a solicitor is likely to do.

Ask the owner a lot of questions and make sure he gives good honest answers without sweating!!!! a solicitor will certainly not do this for you.

 

Ultimately it is your risk and you cannot transfer this to a solicitor or surveyor.

 

.........Dave

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Hi Everyone,

 

I would like to apologize on behalf of Dave and his last post, not making excuses for either his tone or language; but I do know him quite well,we've been married for the better part of 15 years, and in that time he hasn't raised a finger to anyone. In fact he's the guy who will rush to anyone's assistance if they are being either verbally or physically mistreated.

 

I would think, his last response was more to do with some over ambitious Birthday celebrating along with the disappointment & frustration we are both feeling after walking away from a boat we both thought "this is the one", when the seller refused to let us a arrange a full per purchase survey, based on the inconvenience it would cause them as they are currently living on-board the boat!

 

It would have only been out of the water for 1 day. Anyway, we walked away. In my humble opinion we would have been fools to hand over the better part of £75,000 for a boat that was 7 years old without having so much as a hull survey completed never mind a full pre purchase one.

 

Anyway, I do truly appreciate the positive advice some of you have shared with us; in particular I have the numbers of a couple of marine insurers who I will call tomorrow to seek their guidance / advice re lawyers. And if we think any of the boats we look at in the future are for us (and we for it), and it's a private sale we will ask the seller if we could complete the sale through a brokerage firm (at our expense)

 

Both of these were Very good suggestions, I thought, and went some way in answering my original question as well as having some understanding of why Dave and I are so concerned about loosing our one and only shot at our dream.

 

As for everyone else thank you for sharing your thoughts on whether to involve a lawyer or not, and just ever so slightly off topic the value of a surveyor's report frusty.gif . Again, didn't realize I was opening such a can of worms by asking for who to turn to or who to avoid.blush.png

 

At this point, I'm thinking, maybe I should just stick to reading the forums and avoid postingsad.png

 

Kind Regards,

 

Betty~

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DMR's latest advice is solid and good, so check it out.

 

If you are as worried as you seem to be, I think you might be better to only consider second-hand boats if they are being sold through a broker that you can check out, and which people are generally happy with. (Plenty of historic threads on here will tell you who are considered "solid", and some recent threads name some to generally avoid!).

 

You may, of course, limit your choice of potential boats if you rule out private sales, or those where a brokerage with a poor reputation is involved), but because you are purchasing through the broker it will help mitigate some of the things that seem to be worrying you most.

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Hi Everyone,

 

I would like to apologize on behalf of Dave and his last post, not making excuses for either his tone or language; but I do know him quite well,we've been married for the better part of 15 years, and in that time he hasn't raised a finger to anyone. In fact he's the guy who will rush to anyone's assistance if they are being either verbally or physically mistreated.

 

I would think, his last response was more to do with some over ambitious Birthday celebrating along with the disappointment & frustration we are both feeling after walking away from a boat we both thought "this is the one", when the seller refused to let us a arrange a full per purchase survey, based on the inconvenience it would cause them as they are currently living on-board the boat!

 

It would have only been out of the water for 1 day. Anyway, we walked away. In my humble opinion we would have been fools to hand over the better part of £75,000 for a boat that was 7 years old without having so much as a hull survey completed never mind a full pre purchase one.

 

Anyway, I do truly appreciate the positive advice some of you have shared with us; in particular I have the numbers of a couple of marine insurers who I will call tomorrow to seek their guidance / advice re lawyers. And if we think any of the boats we look at in the future are for us (and we for it), and it's a private sale we will ask the seller if we could complete the sale through a brokerage firm (at our expense)

 

Both of these were Very good suggestions, I thought, and went some way in answering my original question as well as having some understanding of why Dave and I are so concerned about loosing our one and only shot at our dream.

 

As for everyone else thank you for sharing your thoughts on whether to involve a lawyer or not, and just ever so slightly off topic the value of a surveyor's report frusty.gif . Again, didn't realize I was opening such a can of worms by asking for who to turn to or who to avoid.blush.png

 

At this point, I'm thinking, maybe I should just stick to reading the forums and avoid postingsad.png

 

Kind Regards,

 

Betty~

I think it was a good move to walk away, i cant understand what they were thinking of. On another point I can't quite see what you would achieve taking a private sale through a broker.

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When we bought our boat the guy had a file with every manual for the engine, fridge, toilet etc. and every receipt for the money spent on the boat over the years, he had the boat insured in his name, the license was in his name, he rang the CART and told them he had sold the boat and then passed me on to them to confirm I had bought it, we paid him cash but we both went into his bank with him and the cashier counted and checked the cash the seller was scared we may be giving him forged notes, we got a receipt from him with boat details on and that the boat was sold running and moving. We had a great couple of days cruising in the pouring rain until the engine went poorly but we will be back on the water soon..... Every owner has their own story hope your making your own stories soon x

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It's a tricky one but here's my tuppence worth. Buy through a broker but 'interview' the owner. The boat that you want to buy was someone's dream once and you will usually find that they are surprisingly honest. If they seem a bit evasive or you just don't like them, don't trust them and move on. It might not seem very scientific but I think that it's as good an approach as any.

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I was in a similar situation to you 18 months ago. I went to look at boats which were either horrible when I got there or the owners wanted to sell without the hassle of a survey. As you, I was concerned about proof of ownership and loosing money. I did some research and discovered sailaways - brand new boats which are partially fitted out. I found a company in Cheshire where I could buy a nearly finished boat, new for £35000 and I only had to pay a £1000 deposit so this is all I would loose if the company went bust. I went to look at their boats and they had one available which was a cancelled order, my wife loved it so we negotiated some extras into the price and collected it a week later and sailed it from Lymm to Stafford. Since then we have finished fitting it out and now use it all the time, Everything such as the engine, pumps and batteries were brand new so came with warranty.

 

The company I bought mine from do wide beam 57ft sailaway additions for about £52000 and they are now painted on the outside which mine wasn't (it was in primer) and is the only thing I would change in hindsight. You could get someone to finish for you if you didn't want to do it yourself, with the money you have left. We have done ours ourself and it is not difficult. Many people have commented on how well the shell is built and welded.

 

It might be worth considering and then you would not need surveys or solicitors and could spend the money saved on the boat,

 

I am not connected with the company, just a happy customer.

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Good evening all,

 

I'm the hubby that Betty refers too.

 

I have no particular love for lawyers and have a nice line in jokes at their expense. I'm also aware that Surveyors have a less then stellar reputation.

 

But is the consensus here actually that I hand over 60 to 70 thousand to some random bloke who claims to have a boat for sale and simply hope for the best?

No not at all. Any boat has a 'provenance' and if the vendor fails to produce it this shouls tell you all you need to know. Should he or she produce it, you then have all the info you need to make a decision as to whether you think they are the current owner with a right to sell.

 

 

It's all very well to say check previous bill of sale and reciepts etc. But how do I know whatever I'm shown hasn't been cooked up useing photshop and a cheap pc printer?

You seem an intelligent bloke. I think you would be able to tell the difference between a original ten year old hand-written receipt and a photoshopped forgery printed yesterday. The paper quality alone is enough.

 

I assume an experienced solicitor would know and that's why Betty is asking if any one here knows of a decent solicitor.

Assumption is the mother of a f***-ups, someone once said.

 

MtB

Edited by FadeToScarlet
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I agree with others that the average High Street solicitor knows nothing about buying and selling boats, so can add little value to the process. However there is one guy who advertises in the classified ads at the back of Waterways World magazine to those who want legal advice on boat buying/selling/building. I know nothing about him, but I assume he is a canal enthusiast who sees a business opportunity in his hobby. If that is the case he might know more than most solicitors.

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We have a solicitor we use in the company (ok not a marine specialist). He said there was little he could add if we knew the item we were buying and had a survey.

 

His advice was to check the document provenance (just like what is being said here).

 

Prior to the deal inspect thoroughly the contract (or insist on one) which gives undertaking the boat is free of Lien etc and forms the binding deal.

 

If a remote purchase consider use of Escrow (but said avoid remote purchases - they are normally for yachts etc bought from other countries) if not a remote purchase, do not pay in advance but use bankers draught and exchange keys simultaneously.

 

Even if you use a broker ensure he is covered under the industry guarantee scheme(s); some brokers are not - and if you pay in advance to those that are not, you can lose your money if they go under.

Edited by mark99
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Good evening all,

 

I'm the hubby that Betty refers too.

 

I have no particular love for lawyers and have a nice line in jokes at their expense. I'm also aware that Surveyors have a less then stellar reputation.

 

But is the consensus here actually that I hand over 60 to 70 thousand to some random bloke who claims to have a boat for sale and simply hope for the best?

 

It's all very well to say check previous bill of sale and reciepts etc. But how do I know whatever I'm shown hasn't been cooked up useing photshop and a cheap pc printer?

 

I assume an experienced solicitor would know and that's why Betty is asking if any one here knows of a decent solicitor.

 

Dave

 

I guess you have to ask yourself 'what do you want' from services that could be offered by a solicitor?

 

If you were to walk into a Mercedes Dealer and buy a 60k car you wouldn't involve a solicitor but then I guess you would have some redress with said dealer if things went wrong.

 

If everything looks fine and then the engine goes pop 3 months later I doubt there would be much redress against the owner unless they have signed up to say they warranty the boat for a given period.

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