which batteries? - age old question i'm sure!!

[silverbuttocks]

Hello all!

 

This question must do the rounds, but i am in the market for new leisure batteries for our liveaboard narrowboat. we have two solar panels, but recently even after cruising we have a shortage of electricity in the evening. seems like they're just not holding their charge (i just got a multi-meter - will test them tomorrow). they are a little over 2 years old anyway.

 

i am planning to fit three new ones - currently we have 2 x 110 ah lesiures but there is space for 3. i have been looking at the numax 110 ah for around 75 quid each, which apparently come off the same shelf as Lucas batteries. What about these traction batteries, although we only have a 55amp alternator. we are pretty careful with the electricity we use, but we have just bought an electric fridge (!) - a Shoreline RR102 (can't find amp/hour usage rates - anyone?). Can we realistically operate this fridge/freezer (along with lights, radio etc) with 3 leisure batteries, running the engine once or twice a day for an hour or two? If not do you have any suggestions?

 

cheers!!

[NB Lola]

http://www.sterling-power.com/support-faq-2.htm

 

Try this link, I found it very useful

[trackman]

Numax x 4 lasted over 6 years for us. Three might manage but it all depends on what your daily power use is and how well you charge them.

A fridge will be your biggest user by far if like us you have LED lighting, unless you have a TV.

You must recharge the batteries fully though, a couple of hours a day isn't good enough even if it makes up what you've used each day. The last few percent of recharge takes hours and is essential to stop them losing capacity. They need a long charge very week or so.

[Jackster]

http://www.sterling-power.com/support-faq-2.htm

 

Try this link, I found it very useful

Thanks for posting the link Paul, very good read.

[cheshire~rose]

When I thought we were going to have to buy some new batteries at the weekend someone suggested getting them from Battery Megastore:

 

http://www.batterymegastore.co.uk/?gclid=CJDkx5fon7kCFcfJtAodjAoAkw

 

The person who recommended this place is someone who I find reliable. I have not used them and actually never got as far as working out what the price of replacing ours was as I was on a very slow connection on my phone at the time but I thought I would share it in case it is helpful.

 

Thankfully we no longer need new batteries as the manufacturer is replacing them under guarantee. I am unsure whether a "smug" smiley or an "astonished" smiley is most applicable to this statement as I still can't actually believe it has happened!

[Robbo]

If your going to use your batteries to any extent, don't go with leisure batteries, use at least semi-traction batteries like the Trojan T105's, these cost around £110 (Tanya) so not much more than a decent leisure but so much better.

[bottle]

Silver buttocks

 

Welcome

 

 

This question must do the rounds,

 

You are absolutely right.

 

Have a search of the forum for battery or batteries.

 

Two links (always given)

 

http://www.batteryfaq.org/

 

http://www.smartgauge.co.uk/technical1.html

 

Just to add, it does not matter how many batteries, which type etc. you fit if the means to recharge them is not available then they will not last.

 

Your existing batteries have lasted as long as my original (Numax 110 amp.hr)

 

You may want to think about fitting a larger (amp) alternator.

 

If you do not have any way of monitoring your batteries then that is another thing to look at.

 

(batteries should not be regularly discharged more than 50% and in an ideal world recharged to 100% SOC every-time)

 

You will need to do a power audit

 

Another link: http://www.tb-training.co.uk/ and especially for you this page .http://www.tb-training.co.uk/MarineE05.html#The%20power%20audit

[rgreg]

I have always had Numax 135 Amp and the current set of three are four years old (full time use) and still performing well enough. They will probably be due for change next year.

[bottle]

but do you have shore line.

 

When people say how long their batteries have lasted we need to know what measures they have in place to maintain them etc.

 

My first set were Numax 110 amp.hr @ 20 hr. rate

 

Lasted two and a half years, never went near a shoreline but were never allowed to go below 55% SOC always charged to at least 95%SOC

 

This was an every day cycle

 

We were/are high users of power, all equipment is 240v ac

 

Battery bank is 330 amp.hr @ 24v

 

The boat is gas free and all loads above 1000 watts were supplied by the onboard generator.

[silverbuttocks]

HI All - thanks for all your useful replies!!

 

Thanks for that link Paul - very interesting. But I'm not sure if I agree (a bit rich seeing as I know nothing!!): unless I'm mistaken it seems that the author is saying that there is absolutely no difference between any leisure/starter batteries, with the exception of traction batteries. I agree that batteries are just buckets of chemicals, but surely the fact that the cells can be different shapes/sizes/configurations/robustnesses (not a real word) etc etc, according to how suited they are to different tasks (e.g. starting an engine, running appliances etc over longer periods etc) means that they are not all the same. The fact that some people (e.g. trackman, rgreg, bottle) seem to be able to run leisures for two years plus, seems to suggest that some batteries, given ideal charging times, loads within their capabilities etc etc), can work for liveaboards. And robbo suggests that semi-traction batteries would be ideal. It appears that there are so many variables that it is difficult to come to a definitive answer...

 

bottle, i really like these links you sent, especially the first one (which seems to contradict the first link to some extent). I don't really want to have to fit a higher ampage alternator, if at all possible. And I agree that a monitoring system would be a good idea. At present there is a monitor on our solar panel doohickey-thingymijig, but this is very coarse (green, yellow and red!) and I don't think accurately reflects the status of the batteries. Is this the kind of monitor that could be useful to ensure that you don;t drop below 50% and that you charge up to 100%, at least on a regular basis, if not daily?

 

http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/NASA-BM2-BATTERY-MONITOR-12V-/140900793329?pt=UK_SportingGoods_FishingAcces_RL&hash=item20ce577bf1

 

I agree, I also need to do a power audit. To be honest the fridge is the main thing (Shoreline RR102) - we have LED lights throughout, and we have a 2kw inverter for running a radio and stereo from time to time, and of course our water pump and gulper.

 

The way I'm thinking right now is that I carry out the audit to check to see if I can get enough amp hours (using the equations provided in the links by Bottle (cheers!!)), and then buy the appropriate number of numax batteries (either three or four, ranging from either 110 to 135) and just see how it goes monitoring them closely with a battery monitor.

 

Just to clarify, we are continuous cruisers so no power hook up (if that's what you mean bottle), and we also have 2 x 64w solar panels which provide a great deal of power, at least when it is sunny. We also have a 3.2kw genny which came with the boat but we haven't really used yet except to run some power tools when we were re-fitting.

 

anyway, if there are any other pearly of wisdom out there then feel free to add your twopenneth worth, and thanks to everyone so far for their input...

[Robbo]

HI All - thanks for all your useful replies!!

 

Thanks for that link Paul - very interesting. But I'm not sure if I agree (a bit rich seeing as I know nothing!!): unless I'm mistaken it seems that the author is saying that there is absolutely no difference between any leisure/starter batteries, with the exception of traction batteries. I agree that batteries are just buckets of chemicals, but surely the fact that the cells can be different shapes/sizes/configurations/robustnesses (not a real word) etc etc, according to how suited they are to different tasks (e.g. starting an engine, running appliances etc over longer periods etc) means that they are not all the same.

 

 

If you really want to know the differences, have a look at the first chapter of this book, (no need to buy as you can "view inside" the first chapter).

[silverbuttocks]

Hi Robbo - yes, I forgot to say, I actually have that book and have read that chapter briefly, so that was where I was getting my vague knowledge of the difference between a car battery (for cranking for short periods of time at high power loads) and a leisure battery (for longer term use at lower loads). we inherited the book along with the boat, but of course it isn't a substitute for the actual experience of boat owners. it seems like a great book though - I just need to get round to reading the rest of it!

[silverbuttocks]

one other thing: and this is likely to be a stupid question:

 

i have a multimeter and want to test my batteries this evening. do i need to disconnect the batteries from the rest of the bank before testing each battery (if you see what i mean?), or can i just touch the tester on the battery terminals with no skewing of the results from the fact that the batteries are joined together in parallel?

 

anyone?

[bottle]

 

At present there is a monitor on our solar panel doohickey-thingymijig, but this is very coarse (green, yellow and red!) and I don't think accurately reflects the status of the batteries. Is this the kind of monitor that could be useful to ensure that you don;t drop below 50% and that you charge up to 100%, at least on a regular basis, if not daily?

 

http://www.ebay.co.u...=item20ce577bf1

 

That is a good monitor (link) (I do not have one, I have the Smartgauge) but you will have to read and understand the instructions as to what it is telling you but that is true of all battery monitors.

 

Just to give you a little idea about the differences in batteries,

 

Our originals were Numax 110 amp.hr (leisure) and weighed in at 28Kgs each. They were sealed, wet lead acid and our usage regularly took them down to 55%.SOC

 

Our latest are Victron 110 amp.hr (deep cycle) and weigh in at 33Kgs each. They are sealed Absorbed Glass Mat (AGM) and with roughly the same usage they regularly go down to 75% SOC

 

This is not substantiated by any monitoring or testing other than by the Smartgauge.

 

Their physical size is exactly the same, their price is not

 

To break even, the new ones will have to last considerably more than two and a half years.

 

We to are CCers, on a gas free boat.

 

Battery bank 330 amp.hr @ 24v.

 

Inverter/charger 2Kva... 50 amp

 

Alternator.... 80 amp (24v)

 

generator...7Kw

 

Solar panels (recently fitted) 400 watts at a nominal 36v. MPPT controller

 

Another thing I have noticed the 50amp charger (intelligent, 3 stage) will charge the battery bank faster than the 80amp alternator.

 

EDIT> To answer post whilst I was typing

 

To know each battery then they will have to be separated but if left connected it will give you some idea of the state of the bank.

 

Doing them separately may give an idea if one of them is not as good as the others.

 

Testing them when joined together will give you the same answer (v) no matter which battery you put the test leads on.

Edited August 29, 2013 by bottle

[Neil2]

The straight answer to your original question is no.

 

I wonder how many boaters spend vast amounts of time and money in trying to solve the power problem, and it seems like a whole new industry has grown up around it as well. And all because we are paranoid about using gas on boats.

 

The first boat we hired I don't think had any electricity at all, save the starter battery. Everything on board was gas, including the lights, Same with the first caravan we ever stayed in.

 

But even since gas and boats came to be seen as a dangerous combination, we used to manage with a boat with only one battery - outboard powered as well - simply because we were prepared to live without a fridge.

 

The fridge is the main culprit, on all boats. Because we try to live on board just like we do on dry land, boats are now equipped with big electric fridges which whatever the manufacturers say, are just too power hungry. So people do all sorts of things with bigger alternators, twin alternators, battery management systems, traction batteries, solar panels, wind turbines, and we all have to do the dreaded energy audit before we can even think about going cruising.

 

We used to moor next to a liveaboard, and she gave up in the end and turned the fridge off permanently. She said it was a revelation and completely removed the constant stress of worrying if she would have enough power from day to day. Of course it does mean you have to do more regular provisioning, but I bet most boaters visit a shop every two or three days anyway, if it's only to buy a newspaper, so that's not a major issue. A lot of convenience goods are sold these days on the assumption that they will be kept refrigerated, but there are very few items that don't have an acceptable alternative and it's amazing what you can get in tins these days!

 

I suspect the real reason folk can't do without their fridge is they can't get used to drinking only red wine and/or warm lager. (Note I said lager - beer as everyone knows should be drunk at room temperature.)

 

 

[silverbuttocks]

 

That is a good monitor (link) (I do not have one, I have the Smartgauge) but you will have to read and understand the instructions as to what it is telling you but that is true of all battery monitors.

 

 

 

hiya. sorry, do you mean that the link i sent was a good monitor, or did you add a new link that didn't work properly?

 

ah, just seen you edit - yes, i thought that would be the case.

 

maybe i should think about getting a 50 amp intelligent charger then??

[bottle]

The reason

 

 

hiya. sorry, do you mean that the link i sent was a good monitor, or did you add a new link that didn't work properly?

 

ah, just seen you edit - yes, i thought that would be the case.

 

maybe i should think about getting a 50 amp intelligent charger then??

 

Your link the NASA is good, do you not already have a charger, perhaps combined with your inverter. (combi)

 

 

ps.

 

I can only say what I have and found and do, I would not like to advise anyone on how to run their boat.

 

Bit of a get out clause.

[junior]

So, as i am about to buy 3 new batteries, did we decide which are the best ones to buy?

[NB Lola]

Simple wet cell ones, el cheapo variety

[LoneWolf]

get bog standard ones junior - you'll knacker the 1st set regardless until you get used to how much lecky you use and reduce your consumption accordingly

[Neil2]

Simple wet cell ones, el cheapo variety

To be honest - assuming you want to keep your fridge - everything I've read about batteries and electrics leads me to the same conclusion, unless you are absolutely 100% certain you are going to keep the boat for some considerable time, in which case shell out something like £600 for a set of golf cart batteries. It would make sense for a long term liveaboard, but the reason most owners don't do this is a set of traction batteries isn't the greatest selling point.

[bottle]

So, as i am about to buy 3 new batteries, did we decide which are the best ones to buy?

 

The best ones to buy are the ones suitable for you and your boat usage and that you can afford to buy.

 

There is no best buy.

 

All that can be done on the forum is give you all the info and you make the decision.

[nb Innisfree]

Remember the a/h rating of a battery bank only holds true when they are new, from their first use they will inexorably reduce in capacity, eventually reaching below half. How long this will take depends on the care given them but spending their life off grid expect this to be no more than two years with el cheapos.

[NB Lola]

Remember the a/h rating of a battery bank only holds true when they are new, from their first use they will inexorably reduce in capacity, eventually reaching below half. How long this will take depends on the care given them but spending their life off grid expect this to be no more than two years with el cheapos.

Would second that, ours last 2 1/2 years

[Neil2]

So there you are then - proper traction batteries are maybe about three times the price of the cheapies, so you would need to have the boat for 6-8 years for it to make financial sense.