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alan_fincher

Historic Boats for sale online

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On 12/5/2017 at 11:36, magnetman said:

Almost identical to a boat I owned called "orianne" she was a "mk1 bantock" motorised in the same way but with an anti ventilation plate.

 

Forum member Arnot bought it from me and some interesting info has been added to the historic ships register. Including an unverified claim that she was motorised "in the early or mid 20th century"

 

So were these boats motorised while still trading? I always assumed that it was when they were first used for pleasure boating.

 

I think the claimed age of conversion is incorrect (in the case of Orianne) no date is claimed for he eBay one.

 

Very similar boat except orianne had s steel shoe.

In around 1964  a guy who was a mate of Jim Yates had a converted butty called Orianne he moored  some where on the BCN & sometimes left it moored at Norbury Jcn I"m not sure if it was the same boat but likely as the bow from memorywas a nicer shape than the normal BCN boats

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Yes a wooden bottom normally sits lower down,

 

I prob started the hole wooden bottom thing but thats just due to my preferance on steering diffrent boats. Some have been very sim boats, i just found that sim boats with a wooden bottom felt better.

Ive also found wooden boat roll over things far better due to the felx, even comparing dane to peacock you can see dane wobble and fex far more when you get the bolinder stroke just right. Again its my own opp hence why a boat like that coming on the market is more to my preference.

Ill also note that tco tried steel boats and boatmen didnt like them compare to the wooden ones sure someone will correct me bit i beleive there were 2 tried from fmc one was france and cant remember 2nd.

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29 minutes ago, X Alan W said:

In around 1964  a guy who was a mate of Jim Yates had a converted butty called Orianne he moored  some where on the BCN & sometimes left it moored at Norbury Jcn I"m not sure if it was the same boat but likely as the bow from memorywas a nicer shape than the normal BCN boats

Same boat yes :)

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On 05/12/2017 at 21:58, David Mack said:

Except a boat with 3" elm bottoms draws almost 3" more than the same boat with a steel bottom loaded to the same dryside inches. And if you work it out 3" of timber weighs about the same as 10mm of steel.

 

If you let the 3" wood free it would float or maybe sink depending upon it's saturation.

If you let the 1/2" steel steel  free it would hit the bottom pretty fast.

Wood only got more draw because it's thicker for same mass.

Does not address how, when you apply motive force at rear of boat with a relatively buoyant but deeper draw (relative to steel)  it actually affects how the hydro-dynamics work out in practice.

Which is another rather long winded way of  saying what BillyB was saying.

Interesting subject!

 

 

 

 

Edited by mark99

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To add a bit more laterally to the subject.

As I understand it, studies of some fish movements (who swim in water!) have shown that some fish predators are in-built with an evolved steering unbalance and instability. (Centre of mass/shape power ability).

They however control this instability via fins/rapid brain reaction/instinct so they can use this instability to out manouver their prey. EG they can "fall" and turn into and out of corners and accelerate quicker.

Composite boats could perhaps enjoy some little marginal benefit in agility compared than if it was constructed from one material with a tendancy to sink like a brick.

All the above is supposition. But I don't think you can dismiss experienced boaters real world observations even if ones is name Archie Meades.  ;)

 

 

 

 

 

 

Edited by mark99

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When I used to dinghy sail there was a product available called "Go fast white" paint. This was painted on the hull of dinghy's at waterline level and the surfaces of the hull below the water. This paint didn't have a smooth finish but a slightly rough one. The idea was that water "sat" in the tiny indentations so any water flowing across the hull was water against water, i.e. less friction, as opposed to water against gloss paint. The theory being that a gloss hull would have minute air bubbles adhering to the hull in a similar way to water globules on a polished surface which would disturb the laminar flow.

In a similar way could a layer of water adhere to a wooden bottom whereas it wouldn't to a metal one?

Just a theory.

Yes I am aware that most dinghy hulls are capable of planing whereas a narrow boat hull isn't. :captain:

Laminar Flow

If the surface is super smooth and the water flow slow, then something called laminar flow can take place. Such flow is linear and non turbulent and as the water particles shear far more easily on each other within that laminar-flow area, frictional resistance can be lowered very significantly (say 30-60%) but only IF in fact, laminar flow can indeed be achieved.

Whether any particular boat can have laminar flow is a subject for much debate—somewhat similar to 'can a multihull plane?'—but even harder to answer. As always, there are many ifs and buts and it's only likely over a small area of the bow, at very low speeds and with a surface prepared to be 'the least likely to provoke turbulent flow'. Actually, there is some talk that porpoises may develop laminar flow over a fair extent of their bodies as experts look for some plausible explanation of why they can travel much faster than their muscle weight would indicate.

Interestingly, they apparently have a skin surface just behind the head, that has microscopically fine ribs that are located not with the flow, but at 90° to it, that are perhaps the secret of how it's achieved. So perhaps we need to paint our underwater bow sections with vertical brush strokes, rather than painting with the flow! :-) I personally think that at speeds under 1.5 knots, a small area of laminar flow 'might' be possible and if so, it would certainly lower resistance at low speed.

For ship models that sometimes go to 20' in length, laminar flow is nearly always apparent in the bow area and in such cases, it so upsets the required calculation of resistance that small pins (or the equivalent) are added to the model in the bow area to actually provoke turbulent flow in order to achieve a more realistic resistance prediction for the full size boat or ship.

http://www.smalltridesign.com/Trimaran-Articles/Boat-Resistance.html

Edited by Ray T

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10 hours ago, billybobbooth said:

Yes a wooden bottom normally sits lower down,

 

I prob started the hole wooden bottom thing but thats just due to my preferance on steering diffrent boats. Some have been very sim boats, i just found that sim boats with a wooden bottom felt better.

Ive also found wooden boat roll over things far better due to the felx, even comparing dane to peacock you can see dane wobble and fex far more when you get the bolinder stroke just right. Again its my own opp hence why a boat like that coming on the market is more to my preference.

Ill also note that tco tried steel boats and boatmen didnt like them compare to the wooden ones sure someone will correct me bit i beleive there were 2 tried from fmc one was france and cant remember 2nd.

Emperor was another, a former owner showed me some brackets he reckoned were from the tanks but I dont know how long she was actually used by Claytons, Captain was owned by them as well not seen any pics of either in TCO colours.

1 hour ago, mark99 said:

To add a bit more laterally to the subject.

As I understand it, studies of some fish movements (who swim in water!) have shown that some fish predators are in-built with an evolved steering unbalance and instability. (Centre of mass/shape power ability).

They however control this instability via fins/rapid brain reaction/instinct so they can use this instability to out manouver their prey. EG they can "fall" and turn into and out of corners and accelerate quicker.

Composite boats could perhaps enjoy some little marginal benefit in agility compared than if it was constructed from one material with a tendancy to sink like a brick.

All the above is supposition. But I don't think you can dismiss experienced boaters real world observations even if ones is name Archie Meades.  ;)

 

 

 

 

 

 

To take it even more laterally, the Typhoon Eurofighter would be unflyable without the computer input for exactly the same reason, because it is so unstable naturally it makes it more manoeuvrable in a dogfight.

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My recollection of fluid dynamics from college is that laminar flow is far LESS efficient than turbulent flow.

I’d imagine that bumpy paint, ridges on porpoises, rough old elm surfaces on narrowboats etc CAUSE turbulent flow at the interface, hence the improvement in performance over a smooth surface. 

Edited by Mike the Boilerman

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I recall some Sea going ice breaking ships being fitted with aeration holes in the hull, through which air was pumped at high pressure to help move the broken ice from beneath the hull and thereby create a clearer channel astern. But the idea that wooden boards might retain sufficient air to allow a smoother passage does not consider the accumulation of mud from the bottom, nor that any steel bottom is free from corrosion that might also retain these slippery bubbles. And at 4mph, just how much difference is measurable. Maybe it's a perceived 'thing'.

Flexible narrow boats turning on a sixpence like small fish. Wonder how the fitted kitchens will cope.

Thinking of slippery paint, I cannot (off the top of my head) think of anything much slippery than silicon from a spray can. Perhaps we should all be spraying hulls with silicon. Used to be animal fat at one time, and grease for cross channel swimmers.

Edited by Derek R.
typo +

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10 hours ago, AMModels said:

Emperor was another, a former owner showed me some brackets he reckoned were from the tanks but I dont know how long she was actually used by Claytons, Captain was owned by them as well not seen any pics of either in TCO colours.

To take it even more laterally, the Typhoon Eurofighter would be unflyable without the computer input for exactly the same reason, because it is so unstable naturally it makes it more manoeuvrable in a dogfight.

All modern in service front line Fighters are unstable to the point of the pilot being able to control (& stay in the air) without the #of control computers up to 9 in some cases they are so inerrantly unstable that a humans reactions are not quick enough to counteract the planes instability

  • Greenie 1

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3 hours ago, mark99 said:

At the risk of going even further off topic, this past F1 season brought this to mind for me as well. Red Bull went with a matt paint scheme, I thought it was something to do with this effect but in actual fact it is still a smooth coat but with light trapping particles within it. Sorry, back to you.

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14 hours ago, Mike the Boilerman said:

My recollection of fluid dynamics from college is that laminar flow is far LESS efficient than turbulent flow.

I’d imagine that bumpy paint, ridges on porpoises, rough old elm surfaces on narrowboats etc CAUSE turbulent flow at the interface, hence the improvement in performance over a smooth surface. 

What about a steel boat with loads of mussels stuck to the baseplate?

They must cause such a turbulent flow that it becomes difficult keeping the boat within the 4mph speed limit. :P

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Mine must be fine then as there is no paint on my elm.

I know big modern liners use air holes under the front and pump high pressure air to aid with resistance.

Ill try this once ive found my drill.

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