Gas Bullsh**

[Biggles]

Agreed. Niche market, DIY product. I rarely encounter them in the wild. Always an indicator of a DIY installation!

 

 

But do they leak in the same quantity?

 

ISO-10239 allows HARD soldered pipe connections

 

 

Very true but as a BSS inspector said how would you know that it was hard soldered in years to come. And extra heat and kit needed.

[Flyboy]

proper plumbers don't need to use them!

Proper plumbers obviously do need to use them if there's a 75% failure rate. I suspect it's something to do with cost.

[alan_fincher]

Proper plumbers obviously do need to use them if there's a 75% failure rate. I suspect it's something to do with cost.

I don't think Hamsterfan was actually talking about a 75% failure rate - which to most people would be interpreted as three quarters of all such joints fail!

 

My interpretation was that he was saying that of all failed plumbing joints he sees, (which may not be a very large percentage of all plumbing joints ever made!), these are the percentage of the failures where the joint is soldered, (rather than compression, or plastic).

 

Based on a central heating system I once had installed by a (so called!) professional plumber, nearly all his failed joints, (and there ended up being a few ), were on capillary ring fittings, so it is clearly possible to even get these wrong.

 

That said, as an amateur, I have made many, (in domestic plumbing), and never (knowingly)had one fail.

[RLWP]

how?

 

Is that compression fitting still tight - yes - good. No - tighten it up.

 

Now, I can see a ring of solder on the end of this fitting, but does it extend to the full depth of the joint??? Where's my x-ray machine?

 

Richard

[tony collins]

It is a very long time ago now, but when I fitted out my own boat (before BSS), I seem to remember having to use a certain type of copper tubing to alleviate the possiblilty of vibration causing work-hardening of the pipe. Is there the possibility of this happening to soldered joints?

[Timleech]

Is that compression fitting still tight - yes - good. No - tighten it up.

 

Now, I can see a ring of solder on the end of this fitting, but does it extend to the full depth of the joint??? Where's my x-ray machine?

 

Richard

 

Am I right in thinking that Yorkshire capillary fittings were available for some time before the bare endfeed type? That was certainly my impression.

At least with the Yorkshire type you know there's some solder inside the joint, though still no way of really knowing how well the joint has taken.

The plain endfeed type do have the advantage that they can be used with silver solder.

 

Tim

[RLWP]

Am I right in thinking that Yorkshire capillary fittings were available for some time before the bare endfeed type? That was certainly my impression.

At least with the Yorkshire type you know there's some solder inside the joint, though still no way of really knowing how well the joint has taken.

The plain endfeed type do have the advantage that they can be used with silver solder.

 

Tim

 

Sorry, I don't know Tim. I've used those in the past, I do all my plumbing in Hep2O now

 

Richard

[Proper Job]

Sorry, I don't know Tim. I've used those in the past, I do all my plumbing in Hep2O now

 

Richard

Not your gas plumbing though........

[magpie patrick]

Wading in, and not being anything like as competent as Hamsterfan on plumbing. The point has been made, boats vibrate. Metal also fatigues. I think I have this right, the ring circuit mains cable in a house is now single core (obviously depends how old the house and the wiring is) but on boats it is multi-strand, because of vibration.

 

An early version of the BSC demanded that spill rails on diesel engines were metal not plastic: result? Fractured spill rails due to vibration

 

And to finish the point, when was the last time a mug or a glass fell off the table in your house because the house was vibrating? On Ripple, at certain revs, the steel curtain rods were a blur due to having hit their resonant frequency, clearly the gas pipes should be better secured, but no soldered joint would have withstood what the curtain rods were doing.

[alan_fincher]

An early version of the BSC demanded that spill rails on diesel engines were metal not plastic: result? Fractured spill rails due to vibration

I've just been told in a recent BSS that mine really ought to be converted to metal, ("Chalice" - BMC 1800), and that the examiner aws using his discretion to pass them when they are not, so it's not just "an early version" thing, unfortunately - sounds like they still think it is a good idea.......

[Rebotco]

Wading in, and not being anything like as competent as Hamsterfan on plumbing. The point has been made, boats vibrate. Metal also fatigues. I think I have this right, the ring circuit mains cable in a house is now single core (obviously depends how old the house and the wiring is) but on boats it is multi-strand, because of vibration.

 

An early version of the BSC demanded that spill rails on diesel engines were metal not plastic: result? Fractured spill rails due to vibration

 

And to finish the point, when was the last time a mug or a glass fell off the table in your house because the house was vibrating? On Ripple, at certain revs, the steel curtain rods were a blur due to having hit their resonant frequency, clearly the gas pipes should be better secured, but no soldered joint would have withstood what the curtain rods were doing.

 

Hope you're going to replace those curtain fittings with compression joints before your next BSS.

[ChrisPy]

Hope you're going to replace those curtain fittings with compression joints before your next BSS.

sorry. can't find the ISO/BS that refers

[the grinch]

I don't think Hamsterfan was actually talking about a 75% failure rate - which to most people would be interpreted as three quarters of all such joints fail!

 

My interpretation was that he was saying that of all failed plumbing joints he sees, (which may not be a very large percentage of all plumbing joints ever made!), these are the percentage of the failures where the joint is soldered, (rather than compression, or plastic).

 

 

 

crikey i would be worried too if 75% failed!! yes of the failed joints i've encountered 75% were soldered joints.

 

compression joints most of the time can be nipped up or just a little ptfe added on top of the olive

[gazza]

I've just been told in a recent BSS that mine really ought to be converted to metal, ("Chalice" - BMC 1800), and that the examiner aws using his discretion to pass them when they are not, so it's not just "an early version" thing, unfortunately - sounds like they still think it is a good idea.......

 

and i am still at a loss to figure out how to fit a metal spill rail to a ford 1.8 as used by thornycroft, also fitted to countles foxes boats. the injector has the hose tails for the spill rail built into the injector body, unlike the bmc which uses banjos.

 

according to bss they boat should be re-engined for a problem that does not really exsist?

[the grinch]

Wading in, and not being anything like as competent as Hamsterfan on plumbing. The point has been made, boats vibrate. Metal also fatigues. I think I have this right, the ring circuit mains cable in a house is now single core (obviously depends how old the house and the wiring is) but on boats it is multi-strand, because of vibration.

 

 

why thank you kind sir!!

 

yes the reason is as you say on cable

 

I've just been told in a recent BSS that mine really ought to be converted to metal, ("Chalice" - BMC 1800), and that the examiner aws using his discretion to pass them when they are not, so it's not just "an early version" thing, unfortunately - sounds like they still think it is a good idea.......

 

not necessarily, AFAIK you can use manufactured braided hoses, there is a BS for them but can't tell you what it is

 

Am I right in thinking that Yorkshire capillary fittings were available for some time before the bare endfeed type? That was certainly my impression.

At least with the Yorkshire type you know there's some solder inside the joint, though still no way of really knowing how well the joint has taken.

The plain endfeed type do have the advantage that they can be used with silver solder.

 

Tim

 

,pretty sure you are correct on that one but of course they were the old 1/2, 3/4 & 1" not the 15/22/28 that we now used before that it was all screwed steel pipe with back nuts and hemp for locking/sealing

 

Is that compression fitting still tight - yes - good. No - tighten it up.

 

Now, I can see a ring of solder on the end of this fitting, but does it extend to the full depth of the joint??? Where's my x-ray machine?

 

Richard

very good point, you get to know when enough solder has drawn in whilst soldering a joint, but you have no way of knowing when looking at an existing joint!

 

Only because they are cheaper, now answer the question

what was the question? as for cost of fittings i use end feed more as yes they are a lot cheaper, but also having been taught how to use end feed i now find them a lot easier to use over solder ring yorkies!

[alan_fincher]

not necessarily, AFAIK you can use manufactured braided hoses, there is a BS for them but can't tell you what it is

 

The whole ensemble already uses a braided hose, although I admit it may not have the correct markings, I'm not sure.

 

What I think, I was told, is that the interconnect between the 4 injectors ouudt to be chanded to metal, and the (correct) braided hose used only for the subsequent connection.

 

I haven't been back and seen what the book says yet, I'll admit!

 

The boat came with a letter from Calcutt filed with the BSS, explaining why what was there was acceptable, so it had clearly been questioned by a previos inspector. My last inspector passed it without comment, but this time it got a mention, (although examiner used his discretion not to fail it).

[Ray T]

Whilst on the subject of copper spill rails..........

 

 

Just after we bought the boat the spill rail fractured. The cause was a loose filter mounting causing the rail to vibrate. It didn't help that the engine mounts were shot, but that is another story.

 

Interesting to note however that the pipe has failed not any of the soldered joints.

 

The fractured piece at the LHS of the photo was done by the RCR engineer to get the pipe out.

 

 

[Timleech]

 

,pretty sure you are correct on that one but of course they were the old 1/2, 3/4 & 1" not the 15/22/28 that we now used before that it was all screwed steel pipe with back nuts and hemp for locking/sealing

 

 

 

 

Well yes, I'm old enough to have used Imperial Yorkshire fittings, I don't remember plain endfeed being an option at that time.

A bit of googling comes up with info which seems to say that Yorkshire fittings go back to 1937.

I'm not that old! I do still use threaded iron pipe from time to time, though.

Just come in from a jolly afternoon/evening sorting out some rigid hydraulic piping, 30mm OD, which had to be tucked in behind fuel tanks and other bits of established plumbing etc, delicate bends here & there to make it fit neatly. All compression fittings, but not the sort you use on LPG!

 

Tim

[gazza]

Whilst on the subject of copper spill rails..........

 

 

Just after we bought the boat the spill rail fractured. The cause was a loose filter mounting causing the rail to vibrate. It didn't help that the engine mounts were shot, but that is another story.

 

Interesting to note however that the pipe has failed not any of the soldered joints.

 

The fractured piece at the LHS of the photo was done by the RCR engineer to get the pipe out.

 

 

 

this is the stuff used by ford et al in their motor cars http://www.jhmbuttco.com/acatalog/Shop_Leak_Off_Pipe_406.html

 

it doesnt fracture, but can perish over time, i had a fiesta that had done 180K before i replaced the leak off pipes. its cheap, easy to fit and carry spares. it is the only stuff you can fit to a ford diesel.

before an overhaul by calcutt, our old bmc engine had flexible leak off, on return from calcutt it has a rigid spill rail. the old bits are in the toolbox incase the new 'improved' rail fails,

 

with regard to fire ratings, if the boat catches light its keys and wallet, dog then wife in that order!

[the grinch]

My HA2 suffered the same fate but the crack was between the 2 tees, no prewarning just failed suddenly at Stonebridge on the lee still managed to limp back to Ponders End but had an oil soaked engine room!!

[Biggles]

 

what was the question? as for cost of fittings i use end feed more as yes they are a lot cheaper, but also having been taught how to use end feed i now find them a lot easier to use over solder ring yorkies!

 

The question was how many of the soldered joints you find faulty are Yorkshire fittings?

 

I too can use both but I just find that the amount I use Yorkshire are just a better option. If I was doing it for a living then endfeed would be my choice.

[the grinch]

arrgh right o! not that many, but end feed are more common so if was to hazard a guess i would say failure rates were similar pro rata.

[Radiomariner]

I was going to keep away from this subject as I have already said all I want to on soldered gas pipes in a previous thread.

However the subject of "spill Rails" came up

 

 

I've just been told in a recent BSS that mine really ought to be converted to metal, ("Chalice" - BMC 1800), and that the examiner aws using his discretion to pass them when they are not, so it's not just "an early version" thing, unfortunately - sounds like they still think it is a good idea.......

 

 

and i am still at a loss to figure out how to fit a metal spill rail to a ford 1.8 as used by thornycroft, also fitted to countles foxes boats. the injector has the hose tails for the spill rail built into the injector body, unlike the bmc which uses banjos.

 

according to bss they boat should be re-engined for a problem that does not really exsist?

 

 

 

The whole ensemble already uses a braided hose, although I admit it may not have the correct markings, I'm not sure.

 

What I think, I was told, is that the interconnect between the 4 injectors ouudt to be chanded to metal, and the (correct) braided hose used only for the subsequent connection.

 

I haven't been back and seen what the book says yet, I'll admit!

 

The boat came with a letter from Calcutt filed with the BSS, explaining why what was there was acceptable, so it had clearly been questioned by a previos inspector. My last inspector passed it without comment, but this time it got a mention, (although examiner used his discretion not to fail it).

 

There seems to be a misunderstanding of the purpose or implementation of the BSS requirements on spill rails.

The requirement is that all fuel lines must meet ISO 7840 or equivalent standard, the issue being fire resistance.

Should they fail the danger is that the fuel tank will empty into the engine bay feeding the fire.

On most modern diesel engines the injector spill is connected between injectors by metal pipe by the manufacturer this meets the standard.

Some manufacturers however use small flexible "rubber" hoses often of their own design.These, if they are in good condition are acceptable. These hoses do perish over time and finding replacements of the correct rating of the required diameter is difficult. Under this circumstance, other hose may be suitable with the following provisos: -

1. That the hose is suitable for the fuel.

2. That the spill rail should return to the top of the fuel tank so as to be self draining (Spill rail conncctions must therefore be above the fuel tank top), or a non return valve be fitted at the engine end of the line to the tank.

3. They must of course fit correctly and not leak.

 

I hope this has cleared up a few points. BSS Dont ask anyone to change engine!

 

Biggles, I'm sorry you had so much hassle

Edited May 11, 2012 by Radiomariner

[Biggles]

 

Biggles, I'm sorry you had so much hassle

 

Thanks Alan. I suppose it's a lesson well learned.. Hopefully someone migh read this in the future and not do the same thing.

[Joshua]

Thanks Alan. I suppose it's a lesson well learned.. Hopefully someone migh read this in the future and not do the same thing.

 

I shouldn't feel too bad about it.

 

We purchased a 12 year old boat at the beginning of the year, having taken the precautions of getting a full survey.

 

A couple of weeks ago, it failed its BSS.

 

The inspector (not the one that did the pre-purchase survey) found it failed on all counts, including the use of soldered joints.

 

It also failed because none of the joints were accessible to inspection, none of the piping was properly supported and in many places it had electrical cable wrapped around it!

 

Amazingly it has passed all its BSS certificates over the last 12 years, until now!!

 

We had to have the whole lot stripped out and replaced.

 

 

 

Joshua