How old is vintage or historic?

[Yamanx]

Is a 1982 Springer a Vintage boat?

 

How old is historic? Say, a 1948 cabin cruiser boat?

 

Does it make a difference if it was a working boat?

[alan_fincher]

Not sure there is any real official definition of "Historic" or similar terms.

 

But for a boat to attract the BW Historic Boat discount, it must have been built prior to 1948, along with many other requirements, of course.

 

BW Historic Boat Discount Link

 

This seems bonkers to me, as it would disqualify boats built later than that as working boats - such as the "River" and "Admiral" class boats built in the 1950s/1960s.

 

I seem to recall the date requirement to be "historic" for the Historic Narrow Boat Club, (recently renamed from the Historic Narrow Boat Owners Club", is 1965, but I could be wrong about that.

 

Quite a few narrow boats are also on the National Historic Ships Register. I can't remember what qualifies for that, but no doubt it is on the web-site somewhere.

 

Clearly a 1982 Springer is of "vintage" or "heritage" interest, but not because of any set of classifications that exist.

 

But....... Based on recent posts.......... The main requirement to be a "historic boat" could be assumed to be that its owner boats it recklessly around the place, upsetting most other canal and river users!

[johnthebridge]

Is a 1982 Springer a Vintage boat?

 

How old is historic? Say, a 1948 cabin cruiser boat?

 

Does it make a difference if it was a working boat?

 

Interesting points. They're much over used expressions in my opinion. I guess the answer to your first question is that it depends to some extent how old you are. To me, a 30 year old Springer, or any other boat for that matter, is not a vintage vessel, whereas to someone who wasn't born then, it probably is. If you wanted to categorise this, you could enter the realm of the old car movement, where it can be Edwardian, Veteran or Vintage etc, but these terms relate to specific age groups.

I suppose the answer to your second lies in the question-"historic" can surely only relate to anything, boat, car, house, whatever, if it's been connected in some way to an historic event or place. For instance, there are about 100 Ford GT40s out there, but the historic ones are surely only the cars that actually won the big races ('69 Le Mans etc.)

Tom Rolt's "Cressy" could be described as historic, for fairly obvious reasons, whereas you couldn't really apply that term to the masses of other horse drawn boats around at that time, could you?

Personally, I don't think you can call any ex-working craft "historic", simply because they're of a certain age and they have worked. All old trucks can't all be historic. Surely they have to have been involved in a specific event to be described as such? My boat was built in 1923, but I don't describe her as historic. To me, she's just "the old boat". Probably because she was 23 years old when I was born.

Usual disclaimers.

[carlt]

But for a boat to attract the BW Historic Boat discount, it must have been built prior to 1948, along with many other requirements, of course.

Lucy qualified for the discount, built 1953, though I do write a good letter.

[Chris Pink]

so how come nobody has antique boats?

[carlt]

Is a 1982 Springer a Vintage boat?

 

How old is historic? Say, a 1948 cabin cruiser boat?

 

Does it make a difference if it was a working boat?

very good points and I don't see why a working boat is any more "historic" than an early leisure boat.

 

It's like saying a 1960s Foden is more worthy of historic vehicle exemption than a 1960s E-type Jag.

Edited April 19, 2012 by carlt

[dor]

so how come nobody has antique boats?

 

If "antique" fairs are anything to go by, it means anything over 10 years old.

 

Cars are 'vintage' if they are pre-1930. The term is often applied to cars from the '40s & '50 though!

[carlt]

so how come nobody has antique boats?

It depends on your definition of "antique" but vehicles tend not to be described as such.

[johnthebridge]

If "antique" fairs are anything to go by, it means anything over 10 years old.

 

Cars are 'vintage' if they are pre-1930. The term is often applied to cars from the '40s & '50 though!

 

There was a "vintage" Cortina on e-bay recently.

[Chris Pink]

It depends on your definition of "antique" but vehicles tend not to be described as such.

 

They do in America. There are fairly rigid classifications in the vehicle world, vintage is said to be 50 years old.

 

how about 'veteran boats' then?

 

 

....a rainy day topic. Hands up who would rather be boating.

[Paul Evans]

Quite a few narrow boats are also on the National Historic Ships Register. I can't remember what qualifies for that, but no doubt it is on the web-site somewhere.

 

 

From The Registers Page

 

To qualify for the National Register of Historic Vessels, a vessel must:

• be at least 50 years old
• have demonstrable and significant associations with the UK
• be based in UK waters
• be more than 33 ft (10.07 metres) in length overall (length OA) measured between the forward and aft extremities of the hull overall excluding any spars or projections.
• be substantially intact

So a 1982 boat wouldn't qualify for inclusion (until 2032).

Edited April 19, 2012 by Paul Evans

[koukouvagia]

 

Quite a few narrow boats are also on the National Historic Ships Register. I can't remember what qualifies for that, but no doubt it is on the web-site somewhere.

 

 

I've got both my boats on this register - mainly so that I could prove that I have two historic boats in case BW/CaRT decided to try to change its own definition of an historic boat.

The criteria for inclusion on the National Register are as follows:

The boat

• be at least 50 years old
• have demonstrable and significant associations with the UK
• be based in UK waters
• be more than 33 ft (10.07 metres) in length overall (length OA) measured between the forward and aft extremities of the hull overall excluding any spars or projections.
• be substantially intact

Several years ago a member of the HNBC did a lot of work trying to distinguish different categories of historic boat. For example, if only a small proportion of the hull is original and the boat has been restored / rebuilt to the n-th degree, should it still qualify for the full discount?

I think the scheme, which had its merits was abandoned, IIRC, because it was too complicated to administer.

ETA - I see Paul beat me to it!

Edited April 19, 2012 by koukouvagia

[alan_fincher]

Lucy qualified for the discount, built 1953, though I do write a good letter.

I'm sure you do, but obviously within their currently written document they would have to make a concession to go post 1948, as that is in there as a clear requirement.

 

The whole process is bonkers of course, and full of flaws, but I thought it worth posting the document anyway.

 

Take this....

 

virtually all riveted iron/steel construction occurred before 1948.

 

My old Stewarts and Lloyds BCN boat had been shortened and converted to a motor as late as about 1960, by Harris Brothers at Bumblehole. Apparently they never had any welding capability to the end, and certainly the entire new back end added to that boat, as well as the entire new bottom, was done with rivets.

[carlt]

I'm sure you do, but obviously within their currently written document they would have to make a concession to go post 1948, as that is in there as a clear requirement.

Well obviously they did make a concession (after I wrote my letter) or I wouldn't have got the discount, would I?

[alan_fincher]

I've got both my boats on this register - mainly so that I could prove that I have two historic boats in case BW/CaRT decided to try to change its own definition of an historic boat.

The criteria for inclusion on the National Register are as follows:

The boat

• be at least 50 years old
• have demonstrable and significant associations with the UK
• be based in UK waters
• be more than 33 ft (10.07 metres) in length overall (length OA) measured between the forward and aft extremities of the hull overall excluding any spars or projections.
• be substantially intact

Several years ago a member of the HNBC did a lot of work trying to distinguish different categories of historic boat. For example, if only a small proportion of the hull is original and the boat has been restored / rebuilt to the n-th degree, should it still qualify for the full discount?

I think the scheme, which had its merits was abandoned, IIRC, because it was too complicated to administer.

ETA - I see Paul beat me to it!

 

Yes "Sickle" is also on the Historic Ships Register.

 

I see "Raymond" was added in 2008, so the 50 year thing presumably means it could not have been earlier ?

 

Clearly there doesn't have to be too much of the original boat still present to qualify!

 

Well obviously they did make a concession (after I wrote my letter) or I wouldn't have got the discount, would I?

Yes, obviously, if the rules were the same then. That's why I tried to emphasise (perhaps not to well!) "if the rules were the same then as now". That's the bit I wouldn't necessarily know!

[carlt]

 

Yes, obviously, if the rules were the same then. That's why I tried to emphasise (perhaps not to well!) "if the rules were the same then as now". That's the bit I wouldn't necessarily know!

The rules were the same then as now.

 

Several boats, built after 1948, have qualified but I know of one notable boat that didn't qualify because the owner never stopped moaning about the injustice.

[zenataomm]

I've always understood something has to be at least 100 years old to be antique.

 

Historic means its existence has been recorded either during its time or in connection with an event.

 

Vintage refers to creation during an era or moment in time. Beaujolais Nouveau 2012 will be this year's vintage. So a Springer built in 82 is one of 1982 vintage.

 

In the world of ebay all three words are used without any significance other than to hype up the sale.

[koukouvagia]

Yes, obviously, if the rules were the same then. That's why I tried to emphasise (perhaps not to well!) "if the rules were the same then as now". That's the bit I wouldn't necessarily know!

 

Things have become much more codified and bureaucratic at BW. When I first had Owl, nearly 25 years ago, I, like Carl, simply wrote a letter to the then Waterways manager and it was left to him to decide on the merits or demerits of the case.

Mind you, in those days the waterways managers were well versed in the historical and heritage aspects of the canals they ran. I'm not sure whether some of the current ones would be similarly qualified to assess an historic boat.

[carlt]

I've always understood something has to be at least 100 years old to be antique.

It was generally accepted that it changed to 50 years, in the 1980s, when Art Deco became extremely popular and dealers wanted to sell it at dateline events.

 

Today the dateline seems to have frozen at 1950 but, with 60s and 70s kitsch becoming popular, the goalposts will probably move again.

[alan_fincher]

The rules were the same then as now.

 

Several boats, built after 1948, have qualified but I know of one notable boat that didn't qualify because the owner never stopped moaning about the injustice.

I have just had to apply for the whole lot afresh for Sickle, including sending recent photographs.

 

They will not apparently accept the fact that it has been treated as "historic" under previous ownership, and just transfer that over to a new owner. You have to go through the process again, and the stuff I worked through would appear to mean that someone senior(-ish) in BW has to look at the supplied pictures and say "yes" or "no".

 

Of course another anomaly is the way that, (after treating its truly historic boats appallingly for years), BW suddenly decided that a whole clutch of relatively recently built mud hoppers, work flats and pontoons were "heritage", and (I think for one cycle of disposals only ?), restricted heavily, at the last minute, who could take them.

 

Have we had "heritage" already in this thread ? I need to go back and check, but clearly in BW's eyes something can be "heritage", but not "historic", if it is a work boat built post 1948.

 

I'm not sure whether some of the current ones would be similarly qualified to assess an historic boat.

I'm not sure some of the current management could assess if a lock is full or empty!

[carlt]

I have just had to apply for the whole lot afresh for Sickle, including sending recent photographs.

It was the same for me, back then, but it was one gu making all the decisions and he knew his stuff.

 

Funnily enough I was asked to send photos of Usk, too, to prove that the conversion had been removed which I felt was a bit unfair, considering the temporary nature of the conversion (apparently it blew off, before I bought the boat) and the permanent nature of many other qualifying boats.

[Lady linda]

very good points and I don't see why a working boat is any more "historic" than an early leisure boat.

 

It's like saying a 1950s Foden is more worthy of historic vehicle exemption than a 1950s E-type Jag.

 

Except the E Type Jaguar was not launched until 1961 !!

[Athy]

Except the E Type Jaguar was not launched until 1961 !!

So a 1950s E Type would be historic indeed as it would have to be a prototype.

[Lady linda]

They normally class them as " Classic" cars, and before 1940 vintage the Jaguar of the 50's was the XK 120, 140, 150 a car before it's time I reckon

[carlt]

Except the E Type Jaguar was not launched until 1961 !!

Can't stand the cars so wouldn't know.

 

The hypothetical scenario is just as valid, however.,