(Another) question on the rules of reselling metered electric

[Starcoaster]

I have a shoreline hookup to power in the marina, which is metered and paid in arrears by billed usage at a per unit price.

 

I understand from having read the historical threads, that electricity resellers (such as marina's) are not allowed to sell the electricity are more per unit price that what they pay for it, but that they are entitled to levy a service charge onto the provision of it.

 

What I want to know is, are there any rules/ policing on the 'service charge?' I have heard of places that charge a flat fee per day etc, but it would seem that where I moor, I am being charged the service charge per unit.

 

My bill broke down as Electricity at 0.12p per unit, and electricity service charge at 0.04p per unit, which to me looks an awful lot like reselling the electric at a higher rate but just calling it the service charge... And a service charge of a total cost of a third more on top of the electric used, plus vat, seems pretty high!

 

Can anyone just confirm that this is legit? I am assuming that it is as I can't imagine this marina doing anything that might potentially cause them legal problems.

But if it indeed is legit, then what is the point of there being rules on the reselling rate, as permitting the service charge to be levied per unit surely makes the rules pointless as the end result is the same, ie, potentially uncapped higher rate unit cost to the secondary client.

 

(Also just to note, vat was charged on top of both the unit price and service charge price at a rate of 5% and 20% respectively which I think is correct according to electricity vat rules.)

Edited February 6, 2012 by Starcoaster

[dor]

What you describe is fairly typical for marinas.

 

The installation and maintenance of the electricity supply is one of the most expensive items in the building of a marina, so you shouldn't begrudge the marina levying a service charge. After all, it is not as though a typical marina-based boat will use huge amounts of power.

[Rebotco]

I have a shoreline hookup to power in the marina, which is metered and paid in arrears by billed usage at a per unit price.

 

I understand from having read the historical threads, that electricity resellers (such as marina's) are not allowed to sell the electricity are more per unit price that what they pay for it, but that they are entitled to levy a service charge onto the provision of it.

 

What I want to know is, are there any rules/ policing on the 'service charge?' I have heard of places that charge a flat fee per day etc, but it would seem that where I moor, I am being charged the service charge per unit.

 

My bill broke down as Electricity at 0.12p per unit, and electricity service charge at 0.04p per unit, which to me looks an awful lot like reselling the electric at a higher rate but just calling it the service charge... And a service charge of a total cost of a third more on top of the electric used, plus vat, seems pretty high!

 

Can anyone just confirm that this is legit? I am assuming that it is as I can't imagine this marina doing anything that might potentially cause them legal problems.

But if it indeed is legit, then what is the point of there being rules on the reselling rate, as permitting the service charge to be levied per unit surely makes the rules pointless as the end result is the same, ie, potentially uncapped higher rate unit cost to the secondary client.

 

(Also just to note, vat was charged on top of both the unit price and service charge price at a rate of 5% and 20% respectively which I think is correct according to electricity vat rules.)

 

 

I think the main idea is from the Regulator that they are not allowed to conceal their charges by billing you as though whatever they charge is only for the electricity.

 

I suspect its got everything to do with transparency, and nothing to do with saving you on fuel costs.

[jenlyn]

I have a shoreline hookup to power in the marina, which is metered and paid in arrears by billed usage at a per unit price.

 

I understand from having read the historical threads, that electricity resellers (such as marina's) are not allowed to sell the electricity are more per unit price that what they pay for it, but that they are entitled to levy a service charge onto the provision of it.

 

What I want to know is, are there any rules/ policing on the 'service charge?' I have heard of places that charge a flat fee per day etc, but it would seem that where I moor, I am being charged the service charge per unit.

 

My bill broke down as Electricity at 0.12p per unit, and electricity service charge at 0.04p per unit, which to me looks an awful lot like reselling the electric at a higher rate but just calling it the service charge... And a service charge of a total cost of a third more on top of the electric used, plus vat, seems pretty high!

 

Can anyone just confirm that this is legit? I am assuming that it is as I can't imagine this marina doing anything that might potentially cause them legal problems.

But if it indeed is legit, then what is the point of there being rules on the reselling rate, as permitting the service charge to be levied per unit surely makes the rules pointless as the end result is the same, ie, potentially uncapped higher rate unit cost to the secondary client.

 

(Also just to note, vat was charged on top of both the unit price and service charge price at a rate of 5% and 20% respectively which I think is correct according to electricity vat rules.)

I went through all this a couple of years ago with a well known marina business. After months of meetings with trading standards and marina management, the result was, the marina could charge over the odds and call it a service charge. You can ask the marina manager for a copy of his electricity bill, he has to provide this to you

[Starcoaster]

Got it. Thats all I wanted to know, really. It didn't even occur to me that some places might, were the rules not in place, just make an overinflated per unit charge to the buyers and try and claim it was the electric company's set rate.

[Ray]

If your figures are correct at 0.12p - do you mean £0.12? - you are getting a very good deal and I wouldn't rock the boat. I know a company that has just renewed a business account with EDF and they're charging around 9p per unit but we know of others who are charging far more. A lot depends on how long the contract lasts and whether it is a fixed price contract.

 

There is a standing charge that has to be funded. In addition there is the provision and maintenance of meters and supply cables. Charging by the unit is probably the fairest way of ensuring that the heaviest users pay the greatest contribution to that cost.

 

Alas I don't know the legal position regarding this.

[nbfiresprite]

I have a shoreline hookup to power in the marina, which is metered and paid in arrears by billed usage at a per unit price.

 

I understand from having read the historical threads, that electricity resellers (such as marina's) are not allowed to sell the electricity are more per unit price that what they pay for it, but that they are entitled to levy a service charge onto the provision of it.

 

What I want to know is, are there any rules/ policing on the 'service charge?' I have heard of places that charge a flat fee per day etc, but it would seem that where I moor, I am being charged the service charge per unit.

 

My bill broke down as Electricity at 0.12p per unit, and electricity service charge at 0.04p per unit, which to me looks an awful lot like reselling the electric at a higher rate but just calling it the service charge... And a service charge of a total cost of a third more on top of the electric used, plus vat, seems pretty high!

 

Can anyone just confirm that this is legit? I am assuming that it is as I can't imagine this marina doing anything that might potentially cause them legal problems.

But if it indeed is legit, then what is the point of there being rules on the reselling rate, as permitting the service charge to be levied per unit surely makes the rules pointless as the end result is the same, ie, potentially uncapped higher rate unit cost to the secondary client.

 

(Also just to note, vat was charged on top of both the unit price and service charge price at a rate of 5% and 20% respectively which I think is correct according to electricity vat rules.)

 

My monthly service electric charge is £2.60 + vat and 15p per unit.

Poole Quay Boat Haven charges £3 + vat per day or about £90 per month (Double my quarterly bill)

As for the service charge, They can charge what they like, Yet if challenge, They will have to justly the charges.

 

Firesprite

 

In the office

[Martin Megson]

Interesting. Knowing the marina in question when I enquired I recall there was also a one off set up fee of around £85. Is this in addition to the service charge?

[Starcoaster]

Eh, really?

 

I didn't get charged any one off set up fee... I just got billed in arrears in Jan when (I assume) everyone else did.

 

What could an £85 set up fee be about?! Do you have a letter about it or anything, or are you sure you heard it right?

[Martin Megson]

I'm sure that's what Libby quoted me - Unless I have misunderstood (won't be the first time), I'll check when I'm over at the weekend

I think it was something to do with connecting a meter which is why I didn't take it up as I don't plan to spend much time on the boat in the marina once I retire.

[Starcoaster]

I'm sure you've misunderstood or maybe were talking at cross purposes with Libby- will be interested to see what it does turn out to be though!

 

Connecting the meter involves being physically handed one in the office, agreeing the number on it's display and signing to say so, then taking it and plugging it into the bollard by the boat and connecting your own cable to it...

[sharpness]

There is a standing charge that has to be funded. In addition there is the provision and maintenance of meters and supply cables. Charging by the unit is probably the fairest way of ensuring that the heaviest users pay the greatest contribution to that cost.

 

Is that right, surely the standing charge, for maintenance of the infrastructure etc should be the same, regardless of the consumption. My next door neighbour & I at home pay the same standing charges, we pay the same car tax, another 45ft boat would pay the same BW licence as me even if it never left the marina. Standing charges should be exactly that which makes the way Star is charged a bit unfair I think.

 

Steve

[Grace and Favour]

Is that right, surely the standing charge, for maintenance of the infrastructure etc should be the same, regardless of the consumption. My next door neighbour & I at home pay the same standing charges, we pay the same car tax, another 45ft boat would pay the same BW licence as me even if it never left the marina. Standing charges should be exactly that which makes the way Star is charged a bit unfair I think.

 

Steve

 

If it is a Standing Charge, then by definition it is a fixed cost (such as £xx per annum) and there doesn't have to be a rebate for part year used

 

If it is a Service Charge - then it can be either a fixed fee, or a fee per unit/day/week/ (etc)

 

The 'fairest ' (?) can be described as a fee that is relative to the amount of times/volume the service is used - for one then has the option of reducing the volume used in order to reduce the service charge

 

I know of one Marina that operates a fixed annual standing charge for electricity supplied (with no rebates for time not used)

our current marina charges 12.5p (+VAT) per day - irrespective of units used - (so if we used only one unit of power over 100 days, we'd be charged for 1 unit + £12.50 + VAT)

[markb]

at my marina i pay 16p per unit plus a standing charge of £21 per quarter. Last quarter my electric was only £1 more than the standing charge.

But hey, £43 per quarter still isn't bad for electric. Certainly less than it would cost in diesel if I didn't have a hook up.

[Martin Megson]

I'm sure you've misunderstood or maybe were talking at cross purposes with Libby- will be interested to see what it does turn out to be though!

 

Connecting the meter involves being physically handed one in the office, agreeing the number on it's display and signing to say so, then taking it and plugging it into the bollard by the boat and connecting your own cable to it...

 

Star,

I just called Libby. She quoted me the same price you are paying 12p & 4p but I have to buy the meter at a cost of £85!! It may be because I'm on leisure mooring and electricity is optional. If you are on a residential mooring maybe the meter is included with your mooring charge.

[mrsmelly]

at my marina i pay 16p per unit plus a standing charge of £21 per quarter. Last quarter my electric was only £1 more than the standing charge.

But hey, £43 per quarter still isn't bad for electric. Certainly less than it would cost in diesel if I didn't have a hook up.

 

I was plugged in for one year at my last mooring. I am not plugged in now and never had been before but what I can say is that it is massively cheaper getting lecktrickery when plugged in than when producing your own.

[alan_fincher]

My bill broke down as Electricity at 0.12p per unit, and electricity service charge at 0.04p per unit, which to me looks an awful lot like reselling the electric at a higher rate but just calling it the service charge... And a service charge of a total cost of a third more on top of the electric used, plus vat, seems pretty high!

As some have said, 12p per unit, (presumably what you meant!), is pretty reasonable, and undoubtedly less than a lot of household customers pay.

 

Compared to many, I'd say the 16p overall isn't at all bad either.

 

Just to clarify, you mention VAT. Are they adding VAT to these prices, and at what rates. Obviously for the electric itself, it should be the discounted rate. Not sure about the service charge, though, as that relates to a service, not supply of the actual fuel - anyone know the correct answer on that, please ?

[Doorman]

My monthly service electric charge is £2.60 + vat and 15p per unit.

Poole Quay Boat Haven charges £3 + vat per day or about £90 per month (Double my quarterly bill)

As for the service charge, They can charge what they like, Yet if challenge, They will have to justly the charges.

 

Firesprite

 

In the office

 

Quite a fair appraisal from what we have experienced so far at four different marinas. Our first marina's electricity rate was quite fair, the second was noticeably higher, the third was about the same as the first and finally, at Overwater Marina, it's about average of the previous three, which I suppose is about right given the outrageous increase in energy prices over the last four years.

 

The second was operated by a particularly notorious character so that was true to form. I agree with the right to challenge these prices if they appear to be unjust, otherwise vote with your boat and move to a more reasonably operated marina.

 

Mike

 

Out on the cut.

Edited February 7, 2012 by Doorman

[Grace and Favour]

As some have said, 12p per unit, (presumably what you meant!), is pretty reasonable, and undoubtedly less than a lot of household customers pay.

 

Compared to many, I'd say the 16p overall isn't at all bad either.

 

Just to clarify, you mention VAT. Are they adding VAT to these prices, and at what rates. It should be 5% for the electrickery, and 20% VAT on the service charge

Obviously for the electric itself, it should be the discounted rate. Not sure about the service charge, though, as that relates to a service, not supply of the actual fuel - anyone know the correct answer on that, please ?

Edited February 7, 2012 by Grace & Favour

[DaveG]

I don't know if it's worth mentioning, but any business generating it's own electricity and then selling it on to it's customers has to have an Ofgem licence and conform to a whole raft of regulations to do so.

[ditchcrawler]

Star,

I just called Libby. She quoted me the same price you are paying 12p & 4p but I have to buy the meter at a cost of £85!! It may be because I'm on leisure mooring and electricity is optional. If you are on a residential mooring maybe the meter is included with your mooring charge.

Do you get to keep the meter when you leave? Maybe you could sell it back to them or the person taking your spot.

[Starcoaster]

VAT is paid at 5% and 20 respectively (I put this in my first post but may not have been clear!)

 

Star,

I just called Libby. She quoted me the same price you are paying 12p & 4p but I have to buy the meter at a cost of £85!! It may be because I'm on leisure mooring and electricity is optional. If you are on a residential mooring maybe the meter is included with your mooring charge.

 

I really don't know what to make of that. I am technically on a temp mooring renewing every month rather than an annual contract mooring, that might possibly be the difference? Regardless, I think I'd better keep my head down just in case!

[alan_fincher]

VAT is paid at 5% and 20 respectively (I put this in my first post but may not have been clear!)

Sorry, no! It is entirely clear. The only thing not clear it seems was my brain, when I read the post.

 

And, yes, that sounds correct......

[sharpness]

 

The 'fairest ' (?) can be described as a fee that is relative to the amount of times/volume the service is used - for one then has the option of reducing the volume used in order to reduce the service charge

 

 

Service charge / standing charge is really just playing with the name. Surely it is in effect the charge you pay for the hire of the marinas equipment ie the electric bollard and unrelated to consumption. Whether or not you use the electric is up to you, the equipment is available & you should pay for it.

We pay 10p per unit & £12 quarterly service charge. (Plus Vat @ 5% & 20% respectively)

 

Steve

[Martin Megson]

VAT is paid at 5% and 20 respectively (I put this in my first post but may not have been clear!)

 

 

 

I really don't know what to make of that. I am technically on a temp mooring renewing every month rather than an annual contract mooring, that might possibly be the difference? Regardless, I think I'd better keep my head down just in case!

 

 

Odd - it must something to do with the types of contract. I checked mine and it simply says electricity can be provided and costs are available from the marina office. I'm not that bothered as when I visit the boat I usually take her out as I need the practice and this keeps the batteries topped up. It's not worth the set up cost as I plan to sound most of my time cruising from Apr to Nov. As you say best keep your head down as the unit cost seems reasonable.