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Power generation


Chris Pink

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I guess any form of power generation is going to make noise - I have plenty of experience of that from my yachting days - where I had solar and a wind generator and still wished I had a genny. I am just trying to weigh up the issues of cost/noise/convenience/safety.

 

Yes, of course, and the information is my experience of the inland waterways. My experience of the lumpy stuff it that's it's a lot noisier than a quiet summer's evening in the English countryside.

 

Horses for courses.

 

it is a difficult set of equations to which there are no 'ideal' solutions. Usually the main balance is cost versus noise. Convenience tends to take a lesser role and all forms of generator can be operated safely.

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  • 9 months later...

Is it possible for someone to give a clear statement of rule of thumb guidance on battery charging regimes for different batteries eg 100ah 110ah 120ah (or the most common types) something like this would be brilliantly useful : "when your monitor reads x it should be considered "flat" for its longevities sake so run your engine/generator or whatever until it reads x (NEVER discharge below x) and then knock it off as this is as good as it gets.... if however your battery drops to x and will not charge above x it is "dead" so buy another" ..this would be great. I ask because having worked in technical support in I.T I know that if I said "press this, that, and then that" they didn't call again whereas if said "press this to clear the Cache, etc etc" then they were on the phone again within ten minutes having forgotten entirely what they should be pressing...;) Thanks.

Edited by Capt.Golightly
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Is it possible for someone to give a clear statement of rule of thumb guidance on battery charging regimes for different batteries eg 100ah 110ah 120ah (or the most common types) something like this would be brilliantly useful : "when your monitor reads x it should be considered "flat" for its longevities sake so run your engine/generator or whatever until it reads x (NEVER discharge below x) and then knock it off as this is as good as it gets.... if however your battery drops to x and will not charge above x it is "dead" so buy another" ..this would be great. I ask because having worked in technical support in I.T I know that if I said "press this, that, and then that" they didn't call again whereas if said "press this to clear the Cache, etc etc" then they were on the phone again within ten minutes having forgotten entirely what they should be pressing...wink.png Thanks.

 

Hi Capt

 

Not exactly sure what you're asking here, but in my experience no 2 batteries are that alike and the variables between different usages by different users and it's far from an exact science.

 

I recall basic rule of thumb if a fully charged battery reads 12.7v after resting and not under load.

 

About 12.2v at 50% SOC after resting and not under load.

 

And 11.6v Flat as a pancake.

 

All pretty useful info BUT if you want to be accurate in getting the SOC, you'll spend most your time switching stuff on and off and taking readings that might or might not be accurate. (There is a full chart on SOC somewhere on the forum BTW)

 

I just keep it simple when the dial on our volt meter reaches 1/4 I deem it needs recharging, as when I switch everything off and let the batteries settle they usually recover to 12.2v within an hour, equal ball park to 50% SOC Weather this is exactly 50% or not it seems to be the right time and we're having no issues.

 

With solar on board through the summer the battery bank rarely went below 1/2 it's only in the last month that we get occasional readings below 1/2 and down to a 1/4 we've now run the engine 9 hours in total for charging the batteries in the past 8 weeks on the water, so a pretty good result. Now our additional panel is up we're almost back to continual 1/2 full, of course though the sun is becoming lower in the sky daily, so this free energy will diminish somewhat over the next 4 months.

 

I will say though we're pretty well pleased with what energy we are getting in this weather we hit around 40 amps yesterday for a good couple of hours and up to 35 today. Days are getting shorter though as well.

 

We are fitting in an inboard generator though, nothing fancy and little bothered at what noise it will produce as it will only be required in the daytime to bulk charge if the batteries are low. We plan on 2 x 90 amp Alts driven by a Kubota 6hp diesel engine situated next to our main engine. It is possible to rig this to automatically run when batteries reach a certain voltage.

Edited by Julynian
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Is it possible for someone to give a clear statement of rule of thumb guidance on battery charging regimes for different batteries

 

I would say this is impossible but it will not stop us trying.

 

 

The simplest form of monitoring batteries is the Smartgauge.

 

Never let the batteries go below 50% SOC (State of Charge)

 

Always re-charge to a minimum of 95% SOC

 

At least once a month (a week, if you can afford it) re-charge to 100% SOC.

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Very briefly, the best way to tell the batts have reached full charge during charging, is with an ammeter; when charge current tails off to a small constant level, they're fully charged.

 

Lots of good information in The Battery FAQ, which also gives a fuller description of the above:

 

'According to IEEE 450-2002 Annex B Recommended Practice, "The pattern of charging current delivered by a conventional voltage-regulated charger after a discharge is the most accurate method for determining state of charge. As the cells approach full charge, the battery voltage rises to approach the charger output voltage, and the charging current decreases. When the charging current has stabilized at the charging voltage, the battery is charged, even though specific gravities have not stabilized." It should be less than two percent of the capacity (C/50) at the manufacturer's recommended temperature compensated absorption charging voltage level of the battery. For the average sized wet Low Maintenance (Sb/Ca) car battery (BCI Group 24) at 80° F (26.7° C), that would be less than two amps at 14.4 VDC with the cells gassing (bubbling) freely and evenly.

 

http://jgdarden.com/batteryfaq/carfaq9.htm#charged

http://www.batteryfaq.org/

 

For an off grid liveaboard doing this every day is unrealistic, what seems to work well enough is a lesser daily charge plus a FULL charge at least weekly.

 

For telling when it's time to recharge normal leisure batts, best recharge when the 'off load' voltage no longer recovers above 12.2V. For a much more convenient (and expensive!) option, just buy a SmartGauge. smile.png

 

cheers, Pete.

~smpt~

Edited by smileypete
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Reading through this thread I noticed a few people have an inboard genny which they run while watching the TV and using other appliances.

I have a 6.5 kw Vetus connected to a 3kw Victron combi so I thought I would be fine . However when running the genny I've fried the following 240 volt appliances :- TV,DVD,Microwave,Induction hob and chargers for phone and computer . This happens intermittantly so it's obviously spikes in the system that I can't predict . I now only run simple devices - kettle,toaster,radiant hob,immersion heater,iron,power tools etc .

The Victron is supposed to smooth any spikes from the genny but I'm not happy , everything works fine off the inverter but not being able to run the genny without switching off certain appliances defeats the point in having it.

Has anyone else experienced this ?

Should I be looking for a fault in my Victron ? (trouble is it's an expensive business replacing appliances to test any changes).

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Reading through this thread I noticed a few people have an inboard genny which they run while watching the TV and using other appliances.

I have a 6.5 kw Vetus connected to a 3kw Victron combi so I thought I would be fine . However when running the genny I've fried the following 240 volt appliances :- TV,DVD,Microwave,Induction hob and chargers for phone and computer . This happens intermittantly so it's obviously spikes in the system that I can't predict . I now only run simple devices - kettle,toaster,radiant hob,immersion heater,iron,power tools etc .

The Victron is supposed to smooth any spikes from the genny but I'm not happy , everything works fine off the inverter but not being able to run the genny without switching off certain appliances defeats the point in having it.

Has anyone else experienced this ?

Should I be looking for a fault in my Victron ? (trouble is it's an expensive business replacing appliances to test any changes).

Don't know if the Victron has a surge protector or not, but I believe it just passes through whatever the genny sends and when it needs to assist it it matches the wave.

 

Have you tried using surge protectors for your devices? I do and not had a issue yet.

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Don't know if the Victron has a surge protector or not, but I believe it just passes through whatever the genny sends and when it needs to assist it it matches the wave.

 

Have you tried using surge protectors for your devices? I do and not had a issue yet.

No I haven't tried surge protection , I'll give it a go.

Thanks

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  • 4 weeks later...

Hi all,

 

Our 'new' boat seems to have an inadequate alternator. 3 days using 12 volt lights and the laptop made the inverter cut out due to 'Low Bat." despite cruising for 3 to 4 hours on two days out of the three. There was also a problem with the 12V Lec fridge: after a day's use it cut out, blowing a 35A fuse - the book says it should have a 15 A one. (Which suggests a fault!)

 

Anyway, our first cruise is to go north from Whilton locks to Yorkshire and I see our progress will be halted by the closure of some of the Atherton flight. That's not far from Onboard Energy at Nuneaton. I am not entirely without understanding, but professional help would be extremely welcome. Does anyone know if they're a reliable source of help: solving the problem rather than just making a sale? I'm not afraid of paying for good service, but don't want to be ripped off. Has anyone experience with this firm?

 

Roger

Edited by MyLady
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With regard to your power usage, what exactly have you been using,any TV what about pumps, has your fridge been on the whole time and what size is your battery bank,and what is the condition of your batteries, new,old,cream crackered An energy audit is always a good starting point

Phil

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How do you know the state of charge (SOC) of the batteries.

 

The batteries may just be 'flat' and you have not charged them enough for your usage.

 

The batteries may be old, been abused and so now do not have the capacity to cope with your usage.

 

Have used Onboard Energy and cannot fault them but give them a ring/e-mail first as they are always busy.

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This is the idea that batteries "recover to some extent" after a rest? Makes sense to me; starter batteries certainly do this when engines are being difficult to start?

Its certainly true the the voltage recovers over time, as you say, if a car is struggling to start and getting slower and lower to turn over, waiting 2-3minutes and going again gives its a few seconds turning over faster, and often brings success.

 

We see the same on the boat, turn everything (lights/pumps/etc) off at night, and you can often see half/quarter of a volt come back on come morning.

 

 

Daniel

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Reading through this thread I noticed a few people have an inboard genny which they run while watching the TV and using other appliances.I have a 6.5 kw Vetus connected to a 3kw Victron combi so I thought I would be fine . However when running the genny I've fried the following 240 volt appliances :- TV,DVD,Microwave,Induction hob and chargers for phone and computer . This happens intermittantly so it's obviously spikes in the system that I can't predict . I now only run simple devices - kettle,toaster,radiant hob,immersion heater,iron,power tools etc .The Victron is supposed to smooth any spikes from the genny but I'm not happy , everything works fine off the inverter but not being able to run the genny without switching off certain appliances defeats the point in having it.Has anyone else experienced this ?Should I be looking for a fault in my Victron ? (trouble is it's an expensive business replacing appliances to test any changes).

Yes I have had this problem too with the same genset. Switch your inverter charge side to Weak AC to reduce the effect, or do as I did isolate ALL the 240v system when running the genny to charge. If you want to pm me I can tell you more about this but not in a public arena. I have now done away with the 230v alternator and have this weekend started using my reworked 12v genset. This is the blog link so far. Sorry can't do a Linky on the I pad http://dcgenset.blogspot.co.uk

 

I think 12v generation is a better way to go. It is after all what the engine does so well.

 

ETA it's the genset causing the problem NOT the Victron. Nor will the Victron clean up the poor sign wave which is the core of the problem.

Edited by Biggles
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How do you know the state of charge (SOC) of the batteries.

 

The batteries may just be 'flat' and you have not charged them enough for your usage.

 

The batteries may be old, been abused and so now do not have the capacity to cope with your usage.

 

Have used Onboard Energy and cannot fault them but give them a ring/e-mail first as they are always busy.

Thanks for reply.

 

Q1 - SOC - I don't know, there is a SOC meter but it doesn't work.

 

Q2 - flat batteries - almost certainly, but the current alternator doesn't seem to give enough charge with a few hours running a day. Remembering to switch things off is almost certainly an issue, but I'm old and make mistakes. I need a system that will cope with that!

 

Q3 - the batteries were 'load tested' and passed the test. I have no means, myself, of knowing if that's good enough.

 

Point 4 - I hope they will be able to suggest a system that will be able to cope with my inadequacies. If you say they're good, I'll trust their advice. (No blame to you if they don't come good, it's just that having bought Milady from Whilton, who get, "mixed" reports on this board, I'm a bit cynical and welcome a user endorsement. Boating may well be akin to throwing money into a bottomless hole in the water, but I'd like to think it's a good hole!)

 

Thanks again for your reply,

 

Roger

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I am rather guessing but on the face of it you may need a bigger alternator and some means of keeping an eye on your power usage, that's where the energy audit comes in. I use a Merlin Power Gauge which tells me how much I have used and tells me how much I have put back into the batteries, many people swear by the Smart Gauge another useful tool is a multimeter and also a hydrometer to check individual battery cells

 

Phil

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A DC clamp ammeter is good for diagnosing charge problems and doing energy audits, Maplins do a Unitrend UT203 for £40 or it can be had for £25-30 on Ebay, Mastech MS2108A is another one:

 

http://www.maplin.co.uk/dc-ac-current-clamp-multimeter-629713

 

Also a DC panel voltmeter that reads down to 0.01V can be useful for day to day, not as good as a £160 Smartguage but a lot better then nuthin! smile.png

 

http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Blue-LCD-Digital-Voltage-Volt-Meter-Voltmeter-Panel-20V-/231095628737?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_3&hash=item35ce5f73c1

 

Voltmeter ideally needs to be wired direct to batt bank takeoffs, and must have a fuse up to 3A in the positive near the batt end.

 

cheers, Pete.

~smpt~

Edited by smileypete
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I really think the trouble is for the vast majority of us is we don't give a F about power having been brought up in the most part in houses connected to mains electricity. When we move on to boats, motorhomes or any other off grid living we are reluctant to give up our "home" comforts...................... UNTIL we need to start making electricity ourselves. Then it dawns.............. Oh! this isn't the no brainer we have been used to. The only time (and this is recently) is when the bill or DD update drops though the door we give it a second thought. I remember the good ol days when dinner party conversation was about property prices, now its how much your DD is for energy.

 

I am 200% guilty of this. I want ALL my land home comforts, lots of light, electric toasters, microwave, big screen TV fridge freezer, sky box, surround sound, computers, etc. etc. and when we get to hotter climbs A/C.

 

I do accept though that all this costs. So once you get your head round this you then have to decide how much all the land based comforts are worth. You can burn £XX.XX on diesel a day or you can cut down on your home (land based) comforts and use candles and fire for everything else.

 

For me my boat time is about fun not endurance or compromise. For this I'm willing to pay the diesel overhead.

 

Life is about choices.

  • Greenie 3
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I really think the trouble is for the vast majority of us is we don't give a F about power having been brought up in the most part in houses connected to mains electricity. When we move on to boats, motorhomes or any other off grid living we are reluctant to give up our "home" comforts...................... UNTIL we need to start making electricity ourselves. Then it dawns.............. Oh! this isn't the no brainer we have been used to. The only time (and this is recently) is when the bill or DD update drops though the door we give it a second thought. I remember the good ol days when dinner party conversation was about property prices, now its how much your DD is for energy.

 

I am 200% guilty of this. I want ALL my land home comforts, lots of light, electric toasters, microwave, big screen TV fridge freezer, sky box, surround sound, computers, etc. etc. and when we get to hotter climbs A/C.

 

I do accept though that all this costs. So once you get your head round this you then have to decide how much all the land based comforts are worth. You can burn £XX.XX on diesel a day or you can cut down on your home (land based) comforts and use candles and fire for everything else.

 

For me my boat time is about fun not endurance or compromise. For this I'm willing to pay the diesel overhead.

 

Life is about choices.

I don't do endurance and compromise so I'm withyou on this one.

 

Phil

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MyLady ( Roger )


, but the current alternator doesn't seem to give enough charge with a few hours running a day.

 

Then you are not running it long enough. wink.png

 

Your usage appears to be greater than your ability to re-charge in a reasonable time.

 

So you either use less or charge more.

 

A larger alternator may help for the initial phase of charging but as the batteries get closer to full charge it will not make any difference.

 

I to would recommend the Smartgauge but please read the manual and understand what it is telling you.

 

It is simple too fit (two wires) and simple to read.

 

Other methods, voltmeter and amp meter together are one way but they need a little more interpretation.

 

Some links for you:

 

http://www.batteryfaq.org/

 

http://www.smartgauge.co.uk/ click on 'Technical info' top header.

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Yeah but then you unwittingly become a slave to your mobile power station! :) And having to try hard to make your choices work.

 

 

cheers, Pete.

~smpt~

Biggles will agree that after years at it,trying hard is not something you have to do, but Hey each to his own.

 

Phil

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MyLady ( Roger )

 

 

, but the current alternator doesn't seem to give enough charge with a few hours running a day.

 

Then you are not running it long enough. wink.png

 

Your usage appears to be greater than your ability to re-charge in a reasonable time.

 

So you either use less or charge more.

 

A larger alternator may help for the initial phase of charging but as the batteries get closer to full charge it will not make any difference.

 

I to would recommend the Smartgauge but please read the manual and understand what it is telling you.

 

It is simple too fit (two wires) and simple to read.

 

Other methods, voltmeter and amp meter together are one way but they need a little more interpretation.

 

Some links for you:

 

http://www.batteryfaq.org/

 

http://www.smartgauge.co.uk/ click on 'Technical info' top header.

I think a more powerful alternator is needed.

 

Engine runs about 6 hours per day, now we've started cruising, I want that to be enough! It's annoying that winter both cuts cruising time for production AND increases lighting needs for consumption. :(

 

Consumption-wise we use a laptop about 3 hours, the water pumps (on demand) and some 12V lighting 6-7 hours this time of year (but I do like enough light to see - at home we've moved to low energy, but that still means at least one 30W in most rooms (was 200W incandescent)). No TV, microwave, toaster, etc.

 

Thanks for the suggestions about metering - at the moment there's a Vmeter but no Ameter. There's also a 'battery energy' meter, but either it's bust, or not connected! :(

 

Thanks again,

 

Roger

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