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Numax m110 batteries

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Are these Numax marine deep cycle batteries really true deep cycle batteries. They seems to bugger up as quick as any std leisure battery would.

 

Are they a slightly jumped up ordinary leisure battery...? What class of battery do they fall in if entering them into a Smartguage. They are basic wet refillable lead acid.

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Are these Numax marine deep cycle batteries really true deep cycle batteries. They seems to bugger up as quick as any std leisure battery would.

 

Are they a slightly jumped up ordinary leisure battery...? What class of battery do they fall in if entering them into a Smartguage. They are basic wet refillable lead acid.

 

Mine are 6.5 years old and still going strong. I don't live aboard though.

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I think most batteries sold at "Leisure" or "Domestic" batteries probably fall into Gibbo's description of little more than starter batteries with handles on.

 

The Numax M110s that we have had in the past actually made claims on the label about "dual purpose", either "domestic" or "starter", (I can't recall exact wording though), so I think that rather proves the point that internal construction will be much like a starter battery.

 

Unless you pay a lot more, the concensus seems to be that is generally the case, so nothing particularly against Numax, (which seem to last rather better than what I was talked into replacing them with.... :angry: ).

 

EDITED TO ADD:

 

Even against a description of Deep Cycle, current spect still says......

 

Advanced semi-traction technology for extreme deep cycling

 

Dual purpose Engine Start & Auxiliary Capability

 

A quality, high powered battery engineered with the latest technology for today's marine needs

 

As I understand it the internal construction required for Starting and deep cycling domestic use are very different, so any battery that claims to be ideal for both has a degree of "economy with the truth" in its marketing, I would say.

Edited by alan_fincher

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They are bog standard leisure batteries.

 

Figured as much...!!

 

Which batteries have people found the most long lived,reliable and cost effective..?

 

What I'm after is a good quality reasonably priced battery that really is deep cycle....do they exist.?

 

All 3 of us are fed up of these cheapo batteries sending you are back and forth with guarantees until you

get a decent set. I'm sure they rely on selling crap and most people not bothereing with the guarantee.

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Figured as much...!!

 

Which batteries have people found the most long lived,reliable and cost effective..?

 

What I'm after is a good quality reasonably priced battery that really is deep cycle....do they exist.?

 

All 3 of us are fed up of these cheapo batteries sending you are back and forth with guarantees until you

get a decent set. I'm sure they rely on selling crap and most people not bothereing with the guarantee.

Are you happy enough with the answers so far?

 

cheers,

Pete.

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What I'm after is a good quality reasonably priced battery that really is deep cycle....do they exist.?

 

Basically no. The proper deep cycle batteries are all expensive. Unless you drop lucky and come across some fork lift/milk float batteries going cheap.

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Am I happy with the answers so far..???

is there some sort of sarcastic intent in that, if so its wasted on me.

 

 

If not then yes, its confirming what i thought.

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i purchased 6 100 amp hour numax batteries in december 2010,they did not perform as well as expected,and appeared to have only 50% of stated capacity ,about 100 amp hours was available,i hoped for 200-ish.

 

the boat was used at xmas for 2 weeks,during which time the batts. continued to decline,since march the boat has been cruised continuously with only a total of 2 weeks on its home mooring.

 

 

 

a 4 step charger looks after them when the boat is on shoreline power,when cruising ,the main engine can provide 150 amps. with 3 step voltage regulation.

 

i estimate that the present available capacity is now down to 60-65a/hrs.

 

wont be buying NUMAX again! but ,they do have nice handles,so it will be easy to lift them off the boat,which will be soon.

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is there some sort of sarcastic intent in that, if so its wasted on me.

 

 

If not then yes, its confirming what i thought.

<sigh> Sorry, just didn't want to get embroiled in another long discussion for nothing.

 

I can send you a PM later if you're interested?

 

cheers,

Pete.

Edited by smileypete

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I can send you a PM later if you're interested?

 

That's it, take it to a PM so everyone else doesn't pick holes in what we can probably correctly assume will be incorrect advice :lol:

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That's it, take it to a PM so everyone else doesn't pick holes in what we can probably correctly assume will be incorrect advice :lol:

Don't worry, I'll provide data to back up exactly what I say.

 

I don't need smoke and mirrors or to call anyone a dick either.

 

Sorry Gibbo, it's a beautiful day and I've got better things to do.

 

cheers,

Pete.

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A ccer's batteries get totally abused, period, there's no other way, so get cheapest ones and don't waste too much diesel on them and replace when knackered.

 

A consideration when choosing, get ones with nice moulded handles which makes replacing them on a regular basis a less arduous task, also get ones with different coloured caps then every time you look at them it gives you a pleasant feeling, very important this as it compensates for the bitter disappointment when they don't live up to their hype.

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I don't need smoke and mirrors or to call anyone a dick either.

 

You have nothing except "I don't think it is". You ask for evidence, when you're given it, you simply refuse to believe it, no matter how many different sources are cited. You'll never learn owt.

 

You deny the 50% rule.

 

Mastervolt

Cruising Equipment

Heart Interface

Amplepower

SmartGauge

 

And many, many more (the list is almost endless)

 

All state it's validity.

 

A boater with a meter says it's wrong. Who are people going to take seriously?

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Figured as much...!!

 

Which batteries have people found the most long lived,reliable and cost effective..?

 

What I'm after is a good quality reasonably priced battery that really is deep cycle....do they exist.?

 

All 3 of us are fed up of these cheapo batteries sending you are back and forth with guarantees until you

get a decent set. I'm sure they rely on selling crap and most people not bothereing with the guarantee.

 

 

 

I have always been happy with the performance of my ....U.S. Battery's..... or .........Trojan T105

I am on my second set after 6 years.

Make sure you buy genuine battery's there are many 'sticky label' fakes out there

 

Alex

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I think we are pretty much experiencing what cereal killer did. Its another one of those things you buy and cant really test that what you have is what they say it is or will cycle as many times as they say.

 

I dont want to get these people on new charging regimes and looking after their batteries as if they were their kids if there is going to be no improvement because the batteries are just shit and will only last so long anyway.

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I think we are pretty much experiencing what cereal killer did. Its another one of those things you buy and cant really test that what you have is what they say it is or will cycle as many times as they say.

 

I dont want to get these people on new charging regimes and looking after their batteries as if they were their kids if there is going to be no improvement because the batteries are just shit and will only last so long anyway.

 

If it's doubtful whether you have shit batts or not then play safe and pay cheap shit prices.

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Basically no. The proper deep cycle batteries are all expensive. Unless you drop lucky and come across some fork lift/milk float batteries going cheap.

 

I came across some Varta stop-start batteries the other day. They claim to be able to cope with deep discharge high current applications that are found in the latest generation of vehicles. Basically the car engine is stopped each time the car stops and then re-starts when you want to move off. Potentially they can run very low and still have to start the engine. Any thoughts on their suitability for domestic batteries? Can't afford them, just interested.

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As someone who sells batteries (amongst many other things) including Numax, I'd just add that as usual you get what you're prepared to pay for. Everyone is looking for a bargain and chandleries have to price accordingly and stock products that people will actually buy. The principal factor that affects how well a battery will hold charge is the amount of metal in the battery - and lead is VERY expensive at the moment. If customers asked what a battery weighed rather than what price, they might get more sensible answers !

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I came across some Varta stop-start batteries the other day. They claim to be able to cope with deep discharge high current applications that are found in the latest generation of vehicles. Basically the car engine is stopped each time the car stops and then re-starts when you want to move off. Potentially they can run very low and still have to start the engine. Any thoughts on their suitability for domestic batteries? Can't afford them, just interested.

 

I've been meaning to play with those for a while, but haven't got round to it.

 

I do know that even bog standard truck batteries have seen a massive improvement over the last ten years and they handle our sort of cycling infinitely better than they did (say) 20 years ago. I see no reason why these new ones wouldn't be even better.

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Ahh, the joys of battery life.

Most batteries are sold on a so many YEARS of life, but in reality they are designed with so many CYCLES of life in mind.

Thus you might have a battery that is sold as having a four year life (read that as a four year warranty) in reality it is designed with a 400 cycle life, where a cycle is defined in terms of say a 50% discharge, followed by a correct recharge. The manufacturer will have taken a guess at how frequently the battery will be discharged to 50%, then recharged to something near its optimum, lets say he guesses at every three to four days (averaged over a year), he now rounds that a bit and gets a four year life expectancy.

I Hear you cry "But I never discharge my battery to that extent". Fair comment, but do you discharge it very gently, or do you hit it with a dead short? The manufacturer will have designed the battery with a particular discharge rate in mind, move away from this and you are onto a new pitch, you may be lucky and have a battery that performs far better on a gentle, shallower discharge than his design intent, but equally you may be unlucky and have one that is woefully short lived under those conditions. The "good" battery manufacturers have tables of data showing how discharge rates, discharge depths, discharge frequency, charge regimes, storage temperature, operating temperature, inside leg measurements, etc, all affect the life expectancy of one of their batteries.

Then we move onto the question of battery charging. A real thorny one this. To charge a battery you need to apply a voltage that is above the current cell voltage, quite obvious really. So you have a cell that is at 1.9 volts, now do you apply 1.91V, or do you apply 2.2 volts? It depends on a number of things, not least of which is the designed charge voltage for that cell at that level of discharge. For most cells you need at least 0.25 volts of over voltage to even start charging at a sensible rate, so the minimum charging voltage for a 12v (6 cell) battery is 13.5V, most cells work best at about 0.5V over voltage, so you need a charge voltage of about 15V. You have to apply this voltage until the battery has reached a sort of equilibrium state, normally when its about 80-90% charged, you now reduce the over voltage somewhat, and continue to charge until the next equilibrium point is reached, you reduce the voltage again and "float charge", again at reduced over voltage - well that's the ideal. Every decent battery manufacturer will tell you exactly what voltages to use, what temperatures to control the battery to and so on.

Now for reality - The average cheap charger just stuffs a few volts on, and the current goes through the roof for a few minutes, dropping away as the charge glows in the corner, the battery is sort of charged, maybe to 80%, maybe to 90%, who knows? The charger certainly doesn't, the battery life will be adversely affected, there is the danger of a lot of gas being produced because the battery has been overheated (Do I need to spell out the dangers of a gassing battery??). Sadly most alternators come into the same category as cheap battery chargers, bt they do shove out more current so do things wrong more quickly...

 

So what? you ask

Well buying a cheap battery that is going to last a year or so may be OK, but it will only last a year or so (anything more is a bonus). Buying a cheap battery charger won't help the life of any battery if used regularly.

 

I'm in the process of specing-out a boat. The batteries will not be the cheap throw away ones, but a decent set of not so cheap ones, supplied by a major battery manufacturer who will sit down with me and go through my load calculations, my charging requirements, and the expected battery life (currently I'm looking at a seven year warranty, full replacement to five years, then tail off) and they aren't anything like seven times the price of a throw-away set, not are they a "fancy" technology like Li-ion, they will run off a "standard" Mastervolt or Victron charger (or C-Tec), I will only have two battery types on board - a bank of big ones (150Ahr each) for domestic, main engine start, bow thruster and a single little one (55Ahr) for the generator start (but that will be man enough to start the main engine. My only concern just now is getting an answer about managing the output from the alternators, but that will come in time for the purchase.

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Ahh, the joys of battery life.

Most batteries are sold on a so many YEARS of life, but in reality they are designed with so many CYCLES of life in mind.

Thus you might have a battery that is sold as having a four year life (read that as a four year warranty) in reality it is designed with a 400 cycle life, where a cycle is defined in terms of say a 50% discharge, followed by a correct recharge. The manufacturer will have taken a guess at how frequently the battery will be discharged to 50%, then recharged to something near its optimum, lets say he guesses at every three to four days (averaged over a year), he now rounds that a bit and gets a four year life expectancy.

I Hear you cry "But I never discharge my battery to that extent". Fair comment, but do you discharge it very gently, or do you hit it with a dead short? The manufacturer will have designed the battery with a particular discharge rate in mind, move away from this and you are onto a new pitch, you may be lucky and have a battery that performs far better on a gentle, shallower discharge than his design intent, but equally you may be unlucky and have one that is woefully short lived under those conditions. The "good" battery manufacturers have tables of data showing how discharge rates, discharge depths, discharge frequency, charge regimes, storage temperature, operating temperature, inside leg measurements, etc, all affect the life expectancy of one of their batteries.

Then we move onto the question of battery charging. A real thorny one this. To charge a battery you need to apply a voltage that is above the current cell voltage, quite obvious really. So you have a cell that is at 1.9 volts, now do you apply 1.91V, or do you apply 2.2 volts? It depends on a number of things, not least of which is the designed charge voltage for that cell at that level of discharge. For most cells you need at least 0.25 volts of over voltage to even start charging at a sensible rate, so the minimum charging voltage for a 12v (6 cell) battery is 13.5V, most cells work best at about 0.5V over voltage, so you need a charge voltage of about 15V. You have to apply this voltage until the battery has reached a sort of equilibrium state, normally when its about 80-90% charged, you now reduce the over voltage somewhat, and continue to charge until the next equilibrium point is reached, you reduce the voltage again and "float charge", again at reduced over voltage - well that's the ideal. Every decent battery manufacturer will tell you exactly what voltages to use, what temperatures to control the battery to and so on.

Now for reality - The average cheap charger just stuffs a few volts on, and the current goes through the roof for a few minutes, dropping away as the charge glows in the corner, the battery is sort of charged, maybe to 80%, maybe to 90%, who knows? The charger certainly doesn't, the battery life will be adversely affected, there is the danger of a lot of gas being produced because the battery has been overheated (Do I need to spell out the dangers of a gassing battery??). Sadly most alternators come into the same category as cheap battery chargers, bt they do shove out more current so do things wrong more quickly...

 

So what? you ask

Well buying a cheap battery that is going to last a year or so may be OK, but it will only last a year or so (anything more is a bonus). Buying a cheap battery charger won't help the life of any battery if used regularly.

 

I'm in the process of specing-out a boat. The batteries will not be the cheap throw away ones, but a decent set of not so cheap ones, supplied by a major battery manufacturer who will sit down with me and go through my load calculations, my charging requirements, and the expected battery life (currently I'm looking at a seven year warranty, full replacement to five years, then tail off) and they aren't anything like seven times the price of a throw-away set, not are they a "fancy" technology like Li-ion, they will run off a "standard" Mastervolt or Victron charger (or C-Tec), I will only have two battery types on board - a bank of big ones (150Ahr each) for domestic, main engine start, bow thruster and a single little one (55Ahr) for the generator start (but that will be man enough to start the main engine. My only concern just now is getting an answer about managing the output from the alternators, but that will come in time for the purchase.

 

Excellent post Bob, by the way welcome to the forum.

Just a quick word of advice, most of us on here have an attention span of a gnat, informative but lengthy post, yawn. laugh.gif

Seriously though, great to have another good contributor to the forum.

Cheers

A

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we stocked newmax for a few years and there absolute cheap junk.....you could garentee as soon as the cold nights start there will be a steady trickle of the dam things coming back through the gates, the firm are a nitemare for warrenty claims aswell...

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We replaced our batteries last winter and it has been the best thing we have done on the boat. It has completely transformed how we can use her. We replaced our one leisure battery with a pair of 105amp sealed Varta leisure batteries and the starter with a dedicated Bosch starter. They may not be the cheapest but as others have said you get what you pay for.

 

We had previously had the batteries replaced when we bought the boat and by this time (almost 12 months) there had been a noticable drop in performance. The new batteries still seem as good as when they were installed. That said we do have them hooked up to shore power on a decent four stage charger when we are away from the boat and cruise most days when away from the marina so they dont get as abused as some peopls batteries.

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