Vintage Engines

[Timleech]

There was a JP1 for sale a couple of years ago on boatsandoutboards. It had been completely rebuilt and was going very cheaply. I almost bought it but decided that I really didn't have the space to store it or a use for it.

When was the 2LW put in James Loader? And don't forget the 5L2 in Enterprise. (do tugs count? Edit to add - I guess so as Princess Anne has been)

 

Soon after the Liverpool IWA rally. It had a Fowler (2DY?) prior to that, so my guess is that as a working tug it had something else again, as the Fowlers were only around 14 bhp IIRC.

 

We pulled him backwards quite emphatically in a tug of war at Liverpool, with the Edith with a National 2DM. The engine change seemed to come quite soon afterwards

 

Tim

[Speedwheel]

so my guess is that as a working tug it had something else again,

 

Think it had a Fordson (possibly semi-diesel) 50ish hp in when built.

[hughc]

If I remember correctly BW fitted Armstrong AS2's in the latter days of carrying in order to avoid the increasing problems of direct cooling on heavily silted canals and because Armstrongs were cheaper than overhauling Nationals which in any case were not I think any longer available. Using a three to one box which reversed the rotation they were able to match the engine to the original National ie. Brunton propellers which kept the cost down.Regards, HughC.

[Speedwheel]

If I remember correctly BW fitted Armstrong AS2's in the latter days of carrying in order to avoid the increasing problems of direct cooling on heavily silted canals and because Armstrongs were cheaper than overhauling Nationals which in any case were not I think any longer available. Using a three to one box which reversed the rotation they were able to match the engine to the original National ie. Brunton propellers which kept the cost down.Regards, HughC.

 

I thought it was the Petter PD2s they did that with (though it may well have been Armstrongs too). I thought the Armstrongs were more usually used in Joshers - I suppose to replace Bolinders.

Edited August 26, 2011 by Speedwheel

[Proper Job]

And of course there are Ailsa Craig.......

 

The RF series engines were build as marine engines first and foremost, but sometimes adapted for 'industrial' use.

 

I'm sure RF2's were fitted by a carrier but were found to be a bit underpowered (10hp IIRC)

 

edited to correct:

Just checked in my AC stuff. The RF2 was 20hp@1000rpm which is plenty of torque for a NB

Edited August 26, 2011 by Proper Job

[Timleech]

I thought it was the Petter PD2s they did that with (though it may well have been Armstrongs too). I thought the Armstrongs were more usually used in Joshers - I suppose to replace Bolinders.

 

That's about right. The PD2 engines were fitted with 3-wheel reduction gears so that they could be swapped directly for Nationals/RNs, without changing the blade. The Armstrongs seem to have been more of a Northern thing. Armstrong singles were tried as replacements for 9hp Bolinders, but weren't successful. Edit - I've never seen an Armstrong with an original 3-wheel box, though I do know of one with an ex-Petter box (they were basically the same Parsons box).

 

As for air-cooled Listers in working Narrow Boats, the Shad certainly had one in its Willow Wren NW days though I have no idea when it was fitted.

The hotel boat Jupiter (Hawk) was fitted with a new HB2 which I dimly remember had come from Willow Wrens (Southern) because they had ordered it & couldn't pay for it, or something along those lines.

 

Our Humber Keel Beecliffe had been fitted with an HA3 as replacement for a JP2, by British Waterways.

 

Tim

Edited August 26, 2011 by Timleech

[billh]

Not strictly true about Listers being the engine of choice in working boat fleets. The massive GUCC fleet constructed in the 1930s mostly used National twins and some RN twins. Kelvins are lovely lumps but never powered a working narrowboat to my knowledge (which is not comprehensive I hasten to add).

 

If you consider a canal maintenance boat to be a working narrowboat, then NB Joel confounds your theory. Motorized by the LNER at Gorton Dock ( see other thread in historical) in 1920's. Admittedly not a diesel, but a Kelvin nevertheless.......

http://www.brocross.com/canal/joel.htm.

 

Why they chose a Kelvin I don't know , that's Railway Companies for you.

The Henry Grantham wooden motor "Forget Me Not"( now with WCBS) had a Kelvin fitted in 1950's or 60's, don't know if it was still trading then though. The engine was removed in early 70's.

Bill

[pete harrison]

I believe you are correct about Kelvins - beautiful lumps but no provenance in working narrow boats.

 

Surprisingly though, whilst Gardners might be considered in a similar camp, (too highly engineered, and too expensive to end up in a basic narrow boat), I believe the record shows that some boats, including some of the Barlow fleet did have them.

 

I have done a massive amount of research regarding all narrow beam working motor boats and their original engine / engine changes, although I can not claim this is yet conclusive or complete.

 

I believe the L.N.E.R. maintenance motor boat JOEL was fitted with a Kelvin F2 when new so a little provenance for this manufacturer - although I have yet to see documented evidence of this.

 

Samuel Barlow Coal Company Limited did fit Gardner 2L2's to a few of their motors but these always replaced an older engine. Their preferred choice of replacement engine was the Lister JP2, and of course they also refitted a couple of motors with Parsons Merganser's (Armstrong Siddley AS2 with a Parsons gearbox).

[pete harrison]

I thought it was the Petter PD2s they did that with (though it may well have been Armstrongs too). I thought the Armstrongs were more usually used in Joshers - I suppose to replace Bolinders.

 

'British Waterways' modernised the engines in their Southern and Northern carrying fleet during the 1950's and very early 1960's. The Southern carrying fleet were mostly National (exG.U.C.C.Co. Ltd.) or Bolinder (exF.M.C. Ltd.) powered. Most of these engines were replaced by Petter PD2's although there were a couple of Parsons Merganser's fitted into exG.U.C.C.Co. Ltd. motors and one or two retained their National / Bolinder. The Northern carrying fleet were mostly Bolinder (exF.M.C. Ltd.) powered and were refitted with a combination of Parsons Merganser's, Lister Freedom (FR2), Lister HA2 and a couple of Lister JP2 engines. IBIS was the exception in having a Gardner 2L2 and a couple retained their original engine types.

 

During this period a number of redundant F.M.C. Ltd. boats were transferred to maintenance duties and subsequently refitted with Lister Freedom (FR3) engines.

 

When carrying finished many of these former carrying boats were transferred to maintenance duties. The favoured engine of the B.W.B. maintenance fleet was by far the Lister H series, with many of the motors being fitted with 2 cylinder engines and most tugs getting 3 cylinder engines. More recently a couple of exG.U.C.C.Co. Ltd. maintenance motors were refitted with Deutz FL2 twin cylinder engines. 1950's maintenance boat motor conversions (ice boats) and the Bantam Tugs built by E.C. Jones seemed to favour the Lister JP range in both 2 and 3 cylinder versions.

 

Once these boats passed into private ownership almost every engine you can think of has been used from Rolls Royce petrol to modern multi cylinder turbo engines.

 

 

The Henry Grantham wooden motor "Forget Me Not"( now with WCBS) had a Kelvin fitted in 1950's or 60's, don't know if it was still trading then though. The engine was removed in early 70's.

Bill

 

FORGET ME NOT was fitted with a Kelvin 4 cylinder petrol / paraffin engine in about 1960 as a part of its conversion to a house / pleasure boat. It was replaced in the early 1970's by a Petter PD2.

Edited August 26, 2011 by pete harrison

[Speedwheel]

Thanks Pete. Never heard of the Deutz FL2. One for sale.

[pete harrison]

Thanks Pete. Never heard of the Deutz FL2. One for sale.

 

I believe the Large Woolwich motor CALDY is still fitted with its Deutz FL2, or at least it did when I last saw it on 19 May 2007.

 

To follow up on an earlier question on JAMES LOADER its Gardner 2LW was removed from the Short Boat ROBERT in 1968 and fitted shortly afterwards. JAMES LOADER's previous engine was a Fowler 2DY 11 hp which had also been fitted by Peter Freakley replacing an old four cylinder engine.

[CHRI5 Blessed]

I believe the Large Woolwich motor CALDY is still fitted with its Deutz FL2, or at least it did when I last saw it on 19 May 2007.

 

To follow up on an earlier question on JAMES LOADER its Gardner 2LW was removed from the Short Boat ROBERT in 1968 and fitted shortly afterwards. JAMES LOADER's previous engine was a Fowler 2DY 11 hp which had also been fitted by Peter Freakley replacing an old four cylinder engine.

 

dunno... but the engine in james loader still runs sweetly last i handled it and went boating with it! (only back in 09 but i have seen and heard since then) the only downer with james is the dynamo is not working... hand start only i'm afraid!!!

[Speedwheel]

I believe the Large Woolwich motor CALDY is still fitted with its Deutz FL2, or at least it did when I last saw it on 19 May 2007.

 

Thanks Pete.

 

The guy who has Caldy (I think his name is Ben) is a nice chap. Lives on an L&L boat on the lower GU. (You probably already know that!) He followed us down to the Ricky festival this year but I have to confess I didn’t look through the engine ‘ole doors.

[Proper Job]

So basically we're saying that you can put in any suitable old lump in a boat and somewhere it should have some provenience back to an 'old' boat.

 

Hardly surprising considering the years it covers and the trends of the times

[pete harrison]

So basically we're saying that you can put in any suitable old lump in a boat and somewhere it should have some provenience back to an 'old' boat.

 

Hardly surprising considering the years it covers and the trends of the times

 

I say pay your money and make your choice. However, it has always appeared to me that motor narrow boats respond best to a large and 'slow' rotating propeller, usually associated with older slower revving engines where torque is more important than horse power. Modern high horse powered diesels tend to be mated to a small propeller that spins fast, probably dictated by modern shallow draught narrow boat design where a large propeller will not easily fit.

 

When we owned the Large Woolwich motor BADSEY it had a Perkind P3.144 that whilst powerful enough for a single motor on flat water it struggled slightly towing a butty, especially on the lower Grand Union Canal where small rivers cross here and there. This engine was apparently rated at 30 hp although it was fairly knackered when we bought it. My plan was to run this engine to death then replace it with a two cylinder Lister H series. This never happened as we sold the boat before the engine expired. BADSEY was re-engined in about 2005 with its original National 2DM.

Edited August 26, 2011 by pete harrison

[Joshua]

Speaking as the owner of an old engine (Lister FR2) which is highly deficient in this respect, availability of spare parts is an important factor.

 

Something else to consider is the gearbox: will you have a solidly-built but clunky and chunky matching old gearbox, or will you use a modern PRM hydraulic and have fingertip control and no worries about the even more difficult gearbox spares situation? There was a thread discussing the pros and cons here.

 

MP.

 

 

Yes, I had been wondering about gearbox’s, I tried the link you give but it doesn’t work, can you re-check it or am I doing something wrong?

 

Hi J,

 

In answer to your question sounds as if you need a Gardner 2LW, with PRM 260 gearbox and properly matched prop.

 

If you need more info (I run one) please PM me.

 

Leo.

 

Many thanks for that, once I know a bit more about what I am talking about, I may well pester you!

 

I have a Dorman 3LB in Independence-a lovely "beating heart" sound. ..........Mike

 

“beating heart”, that sums up perfectly what I am looking for.

 

Seconded, Leo: I too have a Gardner 2LW with PRM gearbox and a properly matched (Crowther) prop. It provides ample power and makes the right sort of noise. From Joshua'a point of view there could be two drawbacks: the cost of buying one (mine, rebuilt by Walsh's, cost £11,000 in 2006), and the fact that he may not find it aesthetically pleasing as most Gardners are painted grey - though with ample copper to polish should he be so inclined1

 

I couldn’t say I think these are sensible prices but with age comes pragmatism, I have stopped trying to change the world and now just accept it the way it is.

I’ll pay because I know if I want a vintage engine I have to!

My father, who by the way, worked for Lister Blackstone marine Engineering in Dursley in the late 50’s, would turn in his grave.

I wish I could talk to him now, he was a chief engineer in both steam and diesel engines, a chartered engineer and a member of the Institutes of mechanical, marine, electrical, fuel and nuclear engineers, I obviously should have paid more attention as a boy!

 

 

Have to aggree with the Gardner choice, ..............

 

This is starting to look like a very popular combination.

 

Joshua have a look here for a good selection of completely rebuilt vintage diesels with prices. You can even hear them running in the video section although you will need to register.

 

Just what I needed, thanks

 

Joshua

[billh]

I have done a massive amount of research regarding all narrow beam working motor boats and their original engine / engine changes, although I can not claim this is yet conclusive or complete.

 

I believe the L.N.E.R. maintenance motor boat JOEL was fitted with a Kelvin F2 when new so a little provenance for this manufacturer - although I have yet to see documented evidence of this.

 

 

The 1920's horseboat conversion to motor definitely was a Kelvin. The engine was a petrol/paraffin "Poppet Valve" 2cylinder model about 9HP. I have seen a picture of the engine with its distinctive "bomb" silencer. The steerer's logbook from the 1930's gives precise information about the amount of petrol, paraffin and lub. oil used in the engine. The Kelvin F2 was fitted to the "New" Joel in 1948, this was a petrol only model of 15HP, converted to Petrol/paraffin using Kelvin parts in 1977. This engine still exists and may be returned to the boat in the future.An interesting feature of the F2 is a Lloyd's inspection stamp on the crankshaft, apparently approving the engine for open sea service!

Bill

[LEO]

Yes

 

 

Many thanks for that, once I know a bit more about what I am talking about, I may well pester you!

 

 

 

“beating heart”, that sums up perfectly what I am looking for.

 

This engine does sound brilliant! it moors near to me, if interested and are close to the Southern GU, contact me and prhaps a 'crankup' could be arranged.

 

We have nearly got the full set - 2 Kelvins, a National the Dorman and a Gardner, plus a BMC (2.2) a Ruston and a JP2. All in the space of a few hundred yards.

 

Leo.

 

PS there is an HR3 moored temporarily too.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Joshua

[MoominPapa]

Yes, I had been wondering about gearbox’s, I tried the link you give but it doesn’t work, can you re-check it or am I doing something wrong?

 

Try this.

 

MP.

[bargemast]

coburn & Cowpar had single cylinder gardners from new - most still do

 

 

Here is a photo of one of those that I took at the IWA at Burton upon Trent. This is the engine of the "Cowburn and Cowpar" named "Skylark".

 

 

Peter.

[Joshua]

Leo

 

I’m in France at the moment, but when I get back to the UK will definitely be in touch, it sounds too good an opportunity to miss.

I have just been listening to the Dorman 3LB on marine Power Services web site (linked by Richardhula), it sounds absolutely amazing. I grew up in West Africa and it reminds me of tribal drum and dance celebrations.

 

The other thing I noted from listening to the engines on MPS was how different the same engine sounds depending where it is installed. I was a bit disappointed with the Gardner 2LW run on a bench but noted that, in the youtube video that MPS links to, it sounds great installed in the boat.

 

No doubt they sound different again when under load, obviously I need to hear them installed and running on the water.

 

By the way, I have heard the term ‘cold-start Gardner’ but can’t find any definition, how do they differ from a standard diesel? I’m guessing maybe pre-heaters as on a modern diesel engine?

 

Cheers,

 

Joshua

[casper ghost]

Ill pay because I know if I want a vintage engine I have to!Joshua

You only have to pay alot if you chose, Gardner, Kelvin or JP2. The others can be sourced fairly cheaply. Only the other week a fully reconditioned Ruston and Hornsby 2VSH (22hp) with prm260 gearbox sold for £1600. The owner was replacing it with a Gardner, madness if you ask me... I love my Ruston and it only cost me £350.but that was an industrial one that I marinised myself. There is a youtube video of that one, type in narrowboat casper.

Casp'

Edited August 26, 2011 by casper ghost

[Timleech]

Leo

 

 

By the way, I have heard the term ‘cold-start Gardner’ but can’t find any definition, how do they differ from a standard diesel? I’m guessing maybe pre-heaters as on a modern diesel engine?

 

Cheers,

 

Joshua

 

That was my description after the hot-bulb Gardners were mentioned. Just anything other than hot-bulb.

My little tug originally was fitted in 1931 with a Gardner 3J5, three tons of it for 54 bhp, two stroke direct reversing but not a hot bulb engine - ie cold start (just to add confusion)

 

Edit to add - the Bolinders 105X series, really marinised tractor engines, were /are often referred to as 'cold start Bolinders', I was following the same sort of language.

 

 

Tim

Edited August 26, 2011 by Timleech

[LEO]

Leo

 

I’m in France at the moment, but when I get back to the UK will definitely be in touch, it sounds too good an opportunity to miss.

I have just been listening to the Dorman 3LB on marine Power Services web site (linked by Richardhula), it sounds absolutely amazing. I grew up in West Africa and it reminds me of tribal drum and dance celebrations.

 

The other thing I noted from listening to the engines on MPS was how different the same engine sounds depending where it is installed. I was a bit disappointed with the Gardner 2LW run on a bench but noted that, in the youtube video that MPS links to, it sounds great installed in the boat.

 

No doubt they sound different again when under load, obviously I need to hear them installed and running on the water.

 

By the way, I have heard the term ‘cold-start Gardner’ but can’t find any definition, how do they differ from a standard diesel? I’m guessing maybe pre-heaters as on a modern diesel engine?

 

Cheers,

 

Joshua

 

Hi,

 

No urgency - it will take some organising to get all the owners there at once, but we could manage 3 or 4.

 

The Dorman does sound good, so does the Kelvin, the Gardner sounds sweet and is probably the easiest to start - even in the winter, It's also keel cooled, which again is an obvious advantage in frosty weather and providing hot water.

 

The Lister's may be air-cooled, (erecting the canvas cooling ducting could bring out the Boy Scout in you).

 

Much of the 'sound' has to do with the silencer arrangement.

 

Also consider that the exhaust normally exits via the roof so have regard to how much smoke/soot the engine kicks out or be prepared to sing along with that well known tune 'smoke gets in your eyes'! or have a 'Brief Encounter' when a smut hits the eyeball.

 

As had been said in another post it's better to run a smaller diesel engine than have a big engine not working to capacity in a canal boat

 

Happy Boating

 

Leo

 

PS Brassoability - definately the Kelvin - the Scots or Lighthouse keepers had to have something to do during the cold dark nights.

Edited August 26, 2011 by LEO

[c c]

BADSEY was re-engined in about 2005 with its original National 2DM.

 

You can see photos of that job as it happened on www.badsey.co.uk