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Recreational Craft Directive


mrartisan

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The taxpayer paid for these standards to be created - they should be available free to the public.

BSI is an independent institution with a Royal Charter, originating from a standards committee set up by the Institution of Civil Engineers.

Where did you learn that the taxpayer pays for it?

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BSI is an independent institution with a Royal Charter, originating from a standards committee set up by the Institution of Civil Engineers.

Where did you learn that the taxpayer pays for it?

 

How very interesting.

 

I assumed it was a Government body but I have had a look at its accounts and it is a private non-profit-distributing body.

 

Who the f*** allowed it to get a monopoly on this business and charge ridiculous prices to get copies of standards that should be in the public domain?????

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It's called a Quango. (Quasi Autonomous Non Governmental Organisation) they seem to spring from nowhere. They force affiliation usually by law, charge for so-called services to pay their salaries. It's like magic, black magic!

 

I saw it first hand when I worked in a pub once. This new company called 'Cask Marque' i think it was. Started advertising everywhere saying that they were an independent body monitoring cask ale. You, as a publican could have your beers patronised by the said Cask Marque for a fat yearly subscription fee. They then gave you the signs for the pumps and the window etc. saying you were Cask Marque vetted. They would call about every six months to drop off the latest signs and posters, paying little attention to anything else.

Amazing is it not? An industry, started from nothing, where nothing was before, where nothing was needed, and, most of all doing nothing at all!

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Sorry, but the intention of the RCD is to protect the buyer. That is its whole raison d'etre. It is all part of the CE scheme which is designed to ensure all goods conform to a minimum set of standards throughout the EEA. It applies to a boat, a car, a telly, even a cigarette lighter.

 

A builder can simply declare the boat to conform to the standards, whether it does or not (and frequently it doesn't). However, if that declaration proves to be false and there were a serious electrical fire, for example, caused by a failure to fit in accordance with the two ISOs that cover low and mains voltage installations the builder could find himself spending a good number of years behind bars following a conviction for manslaughter.

 

It is understandable that aspects of any scheme that set down guidelines for minimum standards will be open to criticism, and sometimes that criticism brings about a revision of those standards, as in the watered down BSS from 2005 onwards. But it must be remembered that we live in a world where if there is a serious incident such as a train crash, or a fire, etc, and subsequently failures are found in systems or procedures, the public tend to bay for blood and demand tighter regulation. We can't have our cake (warning, may contain nuts) and eat it. (Note, cake does not count towards your 5 a day requirement).

 

Gibbo sees this as a money making scheme, but I know that he has debated fiercely on here in the past about the need to bond the earth of a boat's 240 volt system to the hull. The RCD is the only scheme for boats that insists on this safety measure.

 

I do agree wholeheartedly that the standards should be freely available.

if the RCD was to protect the buyer then it would be applicable after the first five years of a boats life also.

Or is it there to protect the more affluent purchasers of canal boats? and it disregards the people that can only afford a boat over five years? It's a little bit mixed up is it not?

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The RCD is taken over by the BSSC after that time! The RCD is the initial CE mark paperwork and standard. Would you expect a car or anything CE marked to give protection to a customer so many years into use...no, we then have MOT's and servicing etc.

 

I assume by now you have decided on your course of action for your boat?

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if the RCD was to protect the buyer then it would be applicable after the first five years of a boats life also.

Or is it there to protect the more affluent purchasers of canal boats? and it disregards the people that can only afford a boat over five years? It's a little bit mixed up is it not?

 

It applies for the whole life of a boat if it applies to it at all. Any boat put on the market within the first 5 years of its life must comply. If you build a boat and don't sell it within 5 years it does not apply as it was only intended to ensure standards for commercially built boats and not for "home made" boats. Clearly a buyer of an older boat has the option to reject one that does not come with an RCD certificate. Equally a person could apply for and get an RCD certificate for old boat that meets the requirements. I can't remember what is the status of boats that were in existence and within the EU prior to the RCD Directive coming into force.

 

I do agree that it is a bit farcical if cowboy builders can self certify for category D.

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I do agree that it is a bit farcical if cowboy builders can self certify for category D.

 

They can of course do that but if a buyer later is suspicious that the boat is non compliant he can call in Trading Standards to check the boat out physically. TS can also ask the cowboy builder to submit the Technical File he should have retained in his records to show how he met every relevant detail of the RCD ISOs for this boat.

 

In the recent past this process has been carried out (forget where) and I believe prosecutions + big fines were the result.

 

Richard

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well exactly, 'farcical' is putting it lightly.

My boat already has a full and complete BSSC and has had for the last two and a half years, it had the official inspection at one year old necessary in order for sailaways to get a repeat licence, and it passed with flying colours.

So, an official body tested my boat to make sure it complied with the British Safety Standards and it did, obviously I wasn't allowed to do this myself. It cost £85 for the inspection and a £40 administration fee to BW £125 in all, which is a fair price for the necessary 'M.O.T.' as it has been described. A BSS I have no problem with and welcome with open arms just as I do the M.O.T. on my car.

It's the RCD and the quango know as BSI that's annoying me. To many people are letting the RCD be overplayed to them 'we're told we need it so therefore we must do' and 'It's there to protect us' The reason they can't enforce anything is because there is nothing to enforce. You don't get a certificate saying "This Is Your RCD" that can be inspected.

 

In reality, you only have to make sure that everything about your boat complies with the regulations, which when you break it down is quite simple LINK. You have to document all of this information (see earlier link), fill in your declaration of conformityLINK, compile a user manual (see earlier link), and purchase a builders CE plate from the chandlers engrave it and attach.

 

They can of course do that but if a buyer later is suspicious that the boat is non compliant he can call in Trading Standards to check the boat out physically. TS can also ask the cowboy builder to submit the Technical File he should have retained in his records to show how he met every relevant detail of the RCD ISOs for this boat.

 

In the recent past this process has been carried out (forget where) and I believe prosecutions + big fines were the result.

 

Richard

 

 

Um "In the recent past this process has been carried out (forget where) and I believe prosecutions + big fines were the result." that statement's more vague than the RCD! :rolleyes:

Edited by mrartisan
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well exactly, 'farcical' is putting it lightly.

My boat already has a full and complete BSSC and has had for the last two and a half years, it had the official inspection at one year old necessary in order for sailaways to get a repeat licence, and it passed with flying colours.

So, an official body tested my boat to make sure it complied with the British Safety Standards and it did, obviously I wasn't allowed to do this myself. It cost £85 for the inspection and a £40 administration fee to BW £125 in all, which is a fair price for the necessary 'M.O.T.' as it has been described. A BSS I have no problem with and welcome with open arms just as I do the M.O.T. on my car.

It's the RCD and the quango know as BSI that's annoying me. To many people are letting the RCD be overplayed to them 'we're told we need it so therefore we must do' and 'It's there to protect us' The reason they can't enforce anything is because there is nothing to enforce. You don't get a certificate saying "This Is Your RCD" that can be inspected.

 

In reality, you only have to make sure that everything about your boat complies with the regulations, which when you break it down is quite simple LINK. You have to document all of this information (see earlier link), fill in your declaration of conformityLINK, compile a user manual (see earlier link), and purchase a builders CE plate from the chandlers engrave it and attach.

 

The CE plate is the certificate.

 

I have no gripe with the BSI apart from the prohibitive cost of acquiring the standards documents which should be available free of charge, or for a small fee to cover reproduction costs if people want paper copies.

 

The BSS is intended to ensure on-going compliance with safety standards. I can't recall if. for example, it concerns itself with stability.

 

Um "In the recent past this process has been carried out (forget where) and I believe prosecutions + big fines were the result." that statement's more vague than the RCD! :rolleyes:

 

Isn't this a little unfair on somebody who was trying to help?

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There are quite some differences between the RCD and BSS requirements. The builders plate is the CE ,ark, and should be taken seriously.

As I said before, you have no choice if you wish to sell your vessel.

I would advise you to be thorough for your sake and the customers.

I do not feel you have a good understanding of the requirements or the differences, or are willing to look deep enough at them, so I would again suggest you find someone well versed in it.

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There are quite some differences between the RCD and BSS requirements. The builders plate is the CE ,ark, and should be taken seriously.

As I said before, you have no choice if you wish to sell your vessel.

I would advise you to be thorough for your sake and the customers.

I do not feel you have a good understanding of the requirements or the differences, or are willing to look deep enough at them, so I would again suggest you find someone well versed in it.

no disrespect Ally but you're saying the same thing as before. I'm not disputing that I need to comply with the RCD, I'm merely trying to show how ridiculous the system is if you can self certify.

And I'm sorry if you can't take a step back from it all and see how simple it is! I work hard for my living and I'm not about to give money away for a non-service when all the information/formulas are there, they just needed locating.

Thanks for your advice though and I have noted it several times. However, I shall post the progress of my self certification and the methods used in satisfying the relevant standards in the hope that the process may benefit future self-builders.

I'm not making a career out of this by the way this was my first and last canal boat, just wasn't sure what you meant by 'customers'

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if the RCD was to protect the buyer then it would be applicable after the first five years of a boats life also.

Or is it there to protect the more affluent purchasers of canal boats? and it disregards the people that can only afford a boat over five years? It's a little bit mixed up is it not?

 

The RCD is there essentially to protect the buyers of new boats. Its just the same for buyers of any new product. If you buy a new car you expect it to meet standards, whereas if you buy a second hand car you would expect that some aspects would no longer be compliant. For cars over 3 years old the MOT test comes into play, but this only covers the basic safety issues, rather than all the standards which applied when new.

 

Its pretty much the same with boats - the RCD compliance applies to new boats, and for canal and river craft at least, the Boat Safety Scheme requires older craft to comply with some, but not all, of the requirements of the RCD.

 

The rules are (inevitably) written around the volume boatbuilders churning out large numbers of identical craft, but apply equally to the small builders of bespoke boats we find on the UK canals system. There is an exemption for home built boats that the owner keeps for at least five years, presumably a ) to reduce the bureaucracy, and b ) because the home boat builder will have to deal with any faults arising from his own work, and there isn't any risk to unknowing buyers (although there maybe to unsuspecting passers-by). If the 5 year period wasn't included, then small boatbuilders would be tempted to build a series of craft "for their own use", only to sell them on completion.

 

 

I think the RCD actually requires that a self-built (or self-fitted out) boat may not be offered on the market without all the RCD compliance documentation in place. So strictly, the OP should not be advertising his boat for sale until this is done.

 

David

Edited by David Mack
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no disrespect Ally but you're saying the same thing as before. I'm not disputing that I need to comply with the RCD, I'm merely trying to show how ridiculous the system is if you can self certify.

And I'm sorry if you can't take a step back from it all and see how simple it is! I work hard for my living and I'm not about to give money away for a non-service when all the information/formulas are there, they just needed locating.

Thanks for your advice though and I have noted it several times. However, I shall post the progress of my self certification and the methods used in satisfying the relevant standards in the hope that the process may benefit future self-builders.

I'm not making a career out of this by the way this was my first and last canal boat, just wasn't sure what you meant by 'customers'

I had become frustrated at the circling you seemed to be doing and that it didn't seem as if you had taken on some things that were being said to you, I'm afraid I felt the need to repeat therefore.

I am versed enough with the RCD having RCD'd quite a few boats....in conjunction with an independant surveyor, as I do not feel it appropriate to self-cert, even though it is my profession. Clearly I will therefore not advise someone who has no experience of it to do so either. I may be one in few, but believe there is good reason for regulation and CE marking of new boats, and as I say, DON'T believe we should be allowed to self-cert, this is how so many poorly finished and constructed boats are out there!

My concerns are your apparent belief that there is little in the RCD that a hull builder does not fulfill, and that after that it's just documents. Not so.

I have said my thoughts, and a couple of others have also done so, and tried to aim you in the best direction. I trust you will take some of the advice you asked for, and sell to the buyer (customer) a safe and compliant boat, and hopefully not until it is fully compliant and certified.

Good luck with it.

Edited by Ally
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I'm not sure what you mean by unfair, I was just noting that it was a vague statement to make. I like the facts, to be able to verify things that have supposedly happened and thus glean more understanding of a subject.

 

Well it was me that made the vague statement!

 

It was vague because although I recall the event happening and the reporting of it in the waterways press, I couldn't remember the names of the parties involved or the amounts of the fines. Unfortunately I just can't spare the time to check the details via Google for you - if you want the facts maybe you could have a look for yourself. It probably also came up on here so you could do a search

 

I don't like guessing at such things and obviously wasn't going to try making up the names and amounts!

 

Richard

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if the RCD was to protect the buyer then it would be applicable after the first five years of a boats life also.

Or is it there to protect the more affluent purchasers of canal boats? and it disregards the people that can only afford a boat over five years? It's a little bit mixed up is it not?

It is applicable in perpetuity. Not just for 5 years. The 5 years only applies to an exemption if the boat is a self build and not sold on until after that 5 year period. Read the regulations.

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and as I say, DON'T believe we should be allowed to self-cert, this is how so many poorly finished and constructed boats are out there!

 

The only problem with this is that as soon as you hand a monopoly on a plate to someone they take the p**s with charges

Look at the difference between surveyors and notified body charges for cat c (mandatory over 12m) and cat d (non mandatory) not that much difference between the 2 but costs I have seen are about 5 fold higher for cat c than d.

Edited by Phoenix_V
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The only problem with this is that as soon as you hand a monopoly on a plate to someone they take the p**s with charges

Look at the difference between surveyors and notified body charges for cat c (mandatory over 12m) and cat d (non mandatory) not that much difference between the 2 but costs I have seen are about 5 fold higher for cat d.

Then perhaps it could be avided by professional boat builders choosing to get boats independantly checked. It costs us in the region of £500 per boat, money well spent for peace of mind, (us and our customers) a good nights sleep and someone to keep us updated aswell!

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Then perhaps it could be avided by professional boat builders choosing to get boats independantly checked. It costs us in the region of £500 per boat, money well spent for peace of mind, (us and our customers) a good nights sleep and someone to keep us updated aswell!

 

If the professional is familiar with his professional techniques and if you are a responsible builder producing successive boats that have a lot in common with each other it is hard to see how a fee of £500 is justified? I can understand that sort of charge for a one-off or a first boat of a series where more investigation and hand-holding would be necessary.

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They can of course do that but if a buyer later is suspicious that the boat is non compliant he can call in Trading Standards to check the boat out physically. TS can also ask the cowboy builder to submit the Technical File he should have retained in his records to show how he met every relevant detail of the RCD ISOs for this boat.

 

In the recent past this process has been carried out (forget where) and I believe prosecutions + big fines were the result.

 

Richard

Someone should get TS to do this to Ben Harp.

 

Tony

 

Trudy-Ann?

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If the professional is familiar with his professional techniques and if you are a responsible builder producing successive boats that have a lot in common with each other it is hard to see how a fee of £500 is justified? I can understand that sort of charge for a one-off or a first boat of a series where more investigation and hand-holding would be necessary.

Of course we are familiar with our techniques and the RCD. The charge is actually low against what is charged by many. We feel it is a worthwhile practise.....primarily for comfort of our customers....but us also. Whilst our boats have 'a lot in common' they are also each unique in assorted ways.

We ask for work to be inspected at hull stage and finish primarily, and he conducts the heel test with us. Whilst I provide all info for the manual, he does the final production (Just 2 of us build these boats, so I don't have the time to do everything!)I know of few professional surveyors who would do all that, travelling aswell, for less than that and be any good!

Don't knock it when a builder is trying to offer independant surveying, assesment, and regulation off their own backs! Everyone is quick to knock us for self-cert'ing, so surely it is a GOOD thing that we, and a few other reputable builders do so?

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I know of few professional surveyors who would do all that, travelling aswell, for less than that and be any good!

Don't knock it when a builder is trying to offer independant surveying, assesment, and regulation off their own backs! Everyone is quick to knock us for self-cert'ing, so surely it is a GOOD thing that we, and a few other reputable builders do so?

 

I am not trying to knock you. I am just a little suspicious of the usual professional rip off.

 

If things go wrong (and I hope they don't) would the Trading Standards people prosecute you or the professional for issuing a false RCD certificate?

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We sign it, so it is ultimately down to us, but it does give us some re-dress ourselves, and back up that it has been independantly surveyed and assessed. Not that we have needed it to date. We just feel it is a good practise. It is purely our choice.

I know you weren't knocking us, sorry, that was a generalised comment really! :blush:

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I currently have for sale my recently completed narrowboat:-

 

http://web.me.com/jpye/narrowboat

 

However, due to the 'Recreational Craft Directive' imposed on boats under five years old, it seems I have to get my documentation more in order. After internet searches, it seems that the RCD is just that, more a compilation of information and not a test-to-pass as I originally thought.

There seems to be much scare-mongering and idle gossip all over the internet concerning the RCD, (as I'm sure there is about all topics). However, something remains unclear about the RCD process:-

 

If the RCD is, as I think I have gleaned, 'a compilation of information' ie: Materials, Processes, Standards, Conformity , etc. then why does the process of achieving RCD compliance seem to be kept out of reach of the sail-away self-builder. After-all, the complicated side of the RCD compliance would have been satisfied by the hull builder (or at least should of been).

So, would it not be better to create a standard format for completing the RCD compliance for the sail-away self-builder, and not make him reliant on a Marine Surveyor to compile the information for him? I think autobiographies are always more exacting than Biographies!

 

Anyway, as I have only just started researching this subject, and need RCD compliance rather sharpish, I though I would post this message to the wealth of knowledge that abounds in the Canalworld forums, any information on this subject would be greatly appreciated, preferably from those of you who have navigated the murky bog of the RCD.

 

Thanks for reading,

 

John.

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We sign it, so it is ultimately down to us, but it does give us some re-dress ourselves, and back up that it has been independantly surveyed and assessed. Not that we have needed it to date. We just feel it is a good practise. It is purely our choice.

I know you weren't knocking us, sorry, that was a generalised comment really! :blush:

 

I thought the £500 might be because the professional was carrying the risk.

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