hot starting Lister HR2

[Ally]

Thanks. the pump is after the taps....don't ask me why 3 taps, I didn't fit it!! Methinks I need that bit re-doing!

[Davidss]

The engine sounds to turn over the same when hot as cold....we can't hand crank it.

Can't because it is too stiff, or can't because a hand crank assembly isn't installed?

 

It has been suggested she is overheating perhaps, and that we need to put a 'sock' from the engine to the pigeon box. Does anyone have a picture of something like this?

I don't have a picture, but visualise a big tube of canvas, with a 'diameter' large enough to be attached round the edge of the pigeon box, the lower end being attached to a framework on the engine, so the hot air is blown up the tube.

A 'flexible duct' might be a better engineering term than 'sock'.

 

Note that I'm only explaining what the suggested sock is. I am neither endorsing or dismissing it's requirement.

 

HTH

[Ally]

not installed with hand crank.

See, there must surely be another way than the ducting idea? I have 2 sets of side doors, 1 with a top hatch, and a pigeon box...all are open when we travel. I understood that would be enough air, especially with stern doors open too. I don't remember ever seeing a ducted engine. Could we perhaps install 12v fans at floor level?

[Timleech]

not installed with hand crank.

See, there must surely be another way than the ducting idea? I have 2 sets of side doors, 1 with a top hatch, and a pigeon box...all are open when we travel. I understood that would be enough air, especially with stern doors open too. I don't remember ever seeing a ducted engine. Could we perhaps install 12v fans at floor level?

 

Ducting was normally fitted to these engines, usually rectangular trunking with a canvas flexible section. If you have everything open as you describe and are not working near full power I would expect it to be OK except maybe in very hot weather.

Ducting would make the engine room more comfortable, as well as enabling full power use without worrying.

 

Tim

Edited August 8, 2011 by Timleech

[Ally]

surely it will be in the way of the de-compressors etc if on a frame around the top of the engine then upwards?

Still can't find a piccy anywhere!

[XAlan W]

surely it will be in the way of the de-compressors etc if on a frame around the top of the engine then upwards?

Still can't find a piccy anywhere!

 

If you find the U tube video of Tom Hill starting the HR2 on Archimedes you will see a cowling on the left side of the engine[looking forward]on the HA that I worked an oblong frame made from 1``angle was bolted to the top of this, the canvas tube was screwed to this with metal strip on the outside to trap the tube this led up to the cabin roof to a similar fitting screwed to the under side of the roof. the roof had an oblong hole cut & a larger than hole plate mounted about 1,1/2inches above the cabin roof on 4 studs,it lay along side the engine room vent box

[alan_fincher]

Pictures of an Lister HA/HB/HW air cooled endine in a narrow boat with the required ducting do seem in short supply on the Internet.

 

Sickle really ought to have it, but as yet does not, so I can't post a picture of my own boat!

 

This Image of Souther Cross' HA shows it, albeit it looks like a steel, rather than a canvas trunk, but it gives the idea....

 

 

Interesting that Archimedes & Ara have been mentioned - these boats are worked very hard, and don't have the trunking.

 

My view is that unless you are really thrashing it, whilst desirable it's not essential in your situation.

 

I doubt it has anything to do with your hot starting issues.

[Ally]

No, we really are not thrashing it!! Anyone want to swap a lister for a more modern tug engine??????? I have a horrible feeling this is going to cost me lots!

[alan_fincher]

Many would say you already have a modern engine, (HR2 in production 1968 - 1991).

 

Certainly a fair bit newer than our HA3, and very likely our BMC 1800, as well!

[Ally]

it's a 1970's one...........

Well, a bit of an advance today. Tried putting an electic fuel tank inline to rule out such issues, and it hot started! Then explored the original 'just re-done and marinised' fuel pump on the engine to find it had leaves in it.....hmm...not helpful perhaps? I wonder if they were there from the 70's????

We will now be taking a good look at just how well this engine was 'sorted and marinised' before we bought it with the boat....I know very well the leaves didn't get there whilst we've had it.....makes you wonder!!!!

[down the north]

As a diesel fitter of 40 years I would try starting it on 'snort'. If it starts it's a fueling issue, if it doesn't it's a compression issue.

 

 

I will always start my HA2 with the cold start lever pulled, this is the small round knob on the side of the timing casing, that you lift then pull the speeder rod out to give full fuel on starting. If the rod will come out against the speeder spring action, than as soon as it starts, it will drop back to tick over speed as the governor takes control.

assume you're doing this already!!

hope its sorted soon, but other comments taken on board re overheating, fuel air leaks etc.

[Ally]

just noticed I said 'electric fuel tank' in my last post...of course meant pump, not tank!!

Most recent and depressing update......

It returned to failing to start, and has always taken a bit of persuasion to cold start tbh.

More investigation...........

Took injectors out...arghhhhhhhhh one had a broken off pin, (looked like it had been put in when broken!) and the other was 2/3 blocked.

Baring in mind we have only fitted it and done minimal hours since it was allegedly 'marinised', this was NOT what I expected to find. Got them all sorted and re-set at no small cost.

Still no joy!

Delve further................

The internal pumps to the injectors...sure they'll be ok?

NOPE!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

I am about to be charged a phenominal amount in new spares apparently, some of which I may not need, but may have to buy with the bits I do need....labour no more than an hour, but parts.....silly money! This had better be the final problem!

I have decided the guy who did the 'marinisation' for the original owner (who never got round to fitting or running it) probably painted it green and smeared a bit of grease on it. I'm gutted (and skint!)

 

Alan...thanks for the pic, and your opinion on the need...I have to say, most I have seen don't have it, and mine has no flange to take one anyway! Everyone else is trying to tell me it MUST have a flange on it for one....but it simply doesn't. I know it is do-able, but 2 sets doors open, hatch top open, pigeon box, I have thought of installing a low level fan to keep air moving. We tend to only do 2-3 hours cruising in one go, as we never get time to go far, and certainly aren't thrashing her....cruising is for taking your time and enjoying!

[AjW]

Things and checks I did when my Lister failed to start easy. (Some of which you might have done)

 

- Take the head covers off and detach the injectors. Spin the fuel pipe and re-attach the injectors upside down (so the injector is pointing upwards) and put a glass over the top of each of them. Crank over the engine and check for a fine spray on the inside of the glass. You MUST NOT spray into the open air. There should be a spray and not a dribble.

 

- Check the engine stop control and the attached cable. Our stop control had a tendancy to open due to the control wire not being set right which made starting the engine difficult.

 

- Shut down the main fuel supply and take the cover off the fuel lift pump and put a cloth under it. Manually wriggle the lever on the pump and check that fuel is bubbling up and out of the pump onto the cloth.

 

- Crank the engine over whilst undoing the various bleed screws along the length of the fuel supply. If the fuel bubbles out then keep cranking till the fuel runs clear and then close the screw. If you get the engine running, then after a couple of hours or towards the end of your cruise, repeat this procedure to check for air (there shouldnt be any)

 

- Decompress the valves and crank the engine over. Recompress each head in turn and listen for a significant change in how hard the starter motor is working. If the motor doesn't sound like it is working or there no difference in note then you probably have a compression issue. Likewise, if you get the engine running then drop the speed to idle and decompress each head in turn and listen for a drop in engine speed or change in note. If the engine stops completely then that cylinder is probably not firing right (the engine should be able to keep going on one cylinder)

 

May the force be with you.

[Ally]

Thanks AJ, have ruled out most but not all of that. Once she starts she keeps going with no problem, so it seems to be initial fuel delivery?

Injectors all sorted and re-vamped....internal pumps being done now..........

[sebrof]

Yet to have an answer about tappet adjustment. A likely diagnosis.

 

Also, some information please about whether it might be overheating.

 

Listers don't generally need much throttle to start but it can help if fuel supply is a bit iffy.

 

From cold, like many engines, they benefit from having lots of throttle.

[PhilR]

From cold, like many engines, they benefit from having lots of throttle.

 

and full is usually best?

[sebrof]

and full is usually best?

 

It certainly is on the JP series, which is why Lister provided the over-load pawl, which permits you to supply more fuel when starting than the highest normal throttle setting.

 

I have also found on other engines, such as Perkins and Sabb, that plenty of fuel is best.

 

You can't flood a diesel.

[Ally]

yeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeehaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa!

Think we MAY be sorted!

As I think I said before, it has looked like this 'reconditioned and newly marinised' Lister, was, infact, marinised by painting it green!!

We have now cleaned the main diesel pump, had the injectors fixed and set up again, and now had the 2 fuel pumps that pair with the injectors completely overhauled, new parts and set up properly. Started up first push of the button this morning!!

So now we just have to re-set the idle and try to get it ticking idle right, and then we can do a test to see if she will hot start now, but it's all looking favourable

(touch wood, grab the rabbits foot, turn round 3 times anti-clockwise, make offerings to the goddess of Listers)

Fingers crossed............

[casper ghost]

marinised by painting it green!!

You see that was the problem, with my brother's HR2 we painted it in it's original blue colour

Casp'

[Ally]

Mine appears to be yellow underneath!

[Timleech]

Mine appears to be yellow underneath!

 

That might mean that it started life in some sort of contractors' plant.

 

Tim

[Ally]

yeh, it's kind of JCB yellow I thought.

[lazyboy]

yeh, it's kind of JCB yellow I thought.

 

benford or thwaites construction machinery had yellow listers