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Narrowboats at sea


max campbell

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Sorry Mr. Hogg, forgot the pedantry rulings.

 

I'm sure Chris would have the intelligence not to take Progress on a 24 hour sea passage when he actually ventures out of a relatively sheltered estuary for a bit and doesn't have the option of putting to port for 16hrs due to all the ports drying.

 

And, whilst I'm sure Progress is the most qualified narrowboat on the water to make these journeys, she still does, in no way, ever belong out at sea and anything other than the mild conditions she has so far faced would pose serious threat to her, surely you must acknowledge that.

 

Finally, you are correct I do not read posts fully, particularly if they bear no relavence to the original question which, unless I'm very much mistaken, was not "Should I take Progress to Chichester"

 

Lee

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Two things - yes it would be possible to get a narrow boat to Chichester, is it worth the danger - NO!

 

Second, I suspect Progress was only limited to a certain distance from Safe Harbour, like so many other 'small' boats.

 

Cheers,

 

Mike

Edited by mykaskin
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Second, I suspect Progress was only limited to a certain distance from Safe Harbour, like so many other 'small' boats.

 

Limited by who?

 

If I want to sail my li-lo across the Atlantic there is no law preventing me from doing so.

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Always, though it may be worth pointing out that, when on such a voyage, there always comes a time when "crew" status is downgraded to "rations".

 

Ahh, herm... Having read "Life of Pi", I've now gone off this idea

 

Richard

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Please try reading the posts, the windows arent "off the shelf". Would you question windows in a ferry, a trawler or even a RNLI Lifeboat?? We have friends in the RNLI who came out to see us in the Menai Straits and who took over steering Progress for the experience and left very impressed!

 

I didn't read every post in this thread, but at least I read the posts that I'm directly replying to. I said "Those windows don't look seaworthy - unless they've been specially made." You're another one who doesn't read posts properly! :lol:

 

And no, I would not question the windows in a ferry, a trawler or a RNLI Lifeboat. However, I would question the windows of a narrow boat at sea. I hope that's ok with you.

Edited by blackrose
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<snip>

 

However, I would question the windows of a narrow boat at sea. I hope that's ok with you.

 

Do you often talk to windows? Does it stave off Mal-de-Mer?

 

Richard

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Two things - yes it would be possible to get a narrow boat to Chichester, is it worth the danger - NO!

 

Second, I suspect Progress was only limited to a certain distance from Safe Harbour, like so many other 'small' boats.

 

Cheers,

 

Mike

 

It would be perfectly feasible to take "Progress" to Chichester. Simply coast hop between marinas at the right weather. Chris did this on the journeys to France stopping at Ramsgate. The only downside is the expense as they charge by length!

You couldnt be our navigator though as I have heard you didnt realize where the BCN finishes :smiley_offtopic:

 

The furthest offshore we went was on the run direct from Glasson Dock to the River Dee at one point we were some 12 miles off shore.

 

One other obstacle now too, is the insurance conditions, I believe the "30 days coastal" is no longer included in the policy the CC had.

 

It musnt be forgotten that there is another seagoing narrowboat about, I have no personal experince of it but Wyvern Shipping's "Ocean Princess" has been around the south coast.

Edited by Laurence Hogg
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I guess we wouldn't be discussing this issue at all were it not for the prescence of narrow canals and the problems of draught, but the fact is that so long as the canal network stays as it is, there will always be a fascination with the concept of a vessel that can navigate the narrow canals as well as coastal/estuary passages.

 

From all that's been said I would conclude personally that you could consider doing coastal passages with a NB but you would have to spend serious money modifying it. Then again, the cost of one journey by road could set you back £1000-£2,000 which would buy you quite a lot of modifications. If it is something you would want to do more than once, modifying the boat starts to make more sense doesn't it? As regards the sea state issue, unless your surname is Knox Johnson or McArthur I can't imagine anyone wanting to be out in a small boat if the wind is much above a force 3 so why buy a category C/D vessel if it's never going to be exposed to the conditions for which it was designed to cope. How many pictures of yachts do you see with reefed sails? Not many because the vast majority of yotties know better than to be out in such conditions. Sure, I wouldn't want to be out at sea in a NB in a force 4 but to be honest I wouldn't want to be out in anything smaller than the cross channel ferry in a force 4.

 

What about this - I seem to recall a boat builder advertising canal boats with box keels, though I think he went out of business... However, it seemed to make a lot of sense if you wanted a flat floored boat with high stability. With a heavy box keel you could have better ultimate stability but with the same shallow draught as a conventional NB. Or what about lee boards like the old dutch barges used??

 

There's another thing - imagine a GRP boat going over that wier. Given that most "sea going" boats are GRP, and there are many things in the sea that can knock a hole in it, isn't there something to be said for a nice thick steel hull?

 

Good point about charging by length though, also I seem to remember Tim Spall having trouble finding marinas that could even accommodate his 60'(?) dutch barge - most of the marinas around the coast are designed for wide but short (relative to NB's) cruisers

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I guess we wouldn't be discussing this issue at all were it not for the prescence of narrow canals and the problems of draught, but the fact is that so long as the canal network stays as it is, there will always be a fascination with the concept of a vessel that can navigate the narrow canals as well as coastal/estuary passages.

 

I would beg to differ, we wouldn't be discussing this if there weren't already three or four narrow boats based on the River Medina in the Isle of Wight

Edited by magpie patrick
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I guess we wouldn't be discussing this issue at all were it not for the prescence of narrow canals and the problems of draught, but the fact is that so long as the canal network stays as it is, there will always be a fascination with the concept of a vessel that can navigate the narrow canals as well as coastal/estuary passages.

 

From all that's been said I would conclude personally that you could consider doing coastal passages with a NB but you would have to spend serious money modifying it. Then again, the cost of one journey by road could set you back £1000-£2,000 which would buy you quite a lot of modifications. If it is something you would want to do more than once, modifying the boat starts to make more sense doesn't it? As regards the sea state issue, unless your surname is Knox Johnson or McArthur I can't imagine anyone wanting to be out in a small boat if the wind is much above a force 3 so why buy a category C/D vessel if it's never going to be exposed to the conditions for which it was designed to cope. How many pictures of yachts do you see with reefed sails? Not many because the vast majority of yotties know better than to be out in such conditions. Sure, I wouldn't want to be out at sea in a NB in a force 4 but to be honest I wouldn't want to be out in anything smaller than the cross channel ferry in a force 4.

 

What about this - I seem to recall a boat builder advertising canal boats with box keels, though I think he went out of business... However, it seemed to make a lot of sense if you wanted a flat floored boat with high stability. With a heavy box keel you could have better ultimate stability but with the same shallow draught as a conventional NB. Or what about lee boards like the old dutch barges used??

 

There's another thing - imagine a GRP boat going over that wier. Given that most "sea going" boats are GRP, and there are many things in the sea that can knock a hole in it, isn't there something to be said for a nice thick steel hull?

 

Good point about charging by length though, also I seem to remember Tim Spall having trouble finding marinas that could even accommodate his 60'(?) dutch barge - most of the marinas around the coast are designed for wide but short (relative to NB's) cruisers

 

While understanding the points that you make, I think that a number of them are based on not undertstanding fully some of the problems. Draught for instance is not neccessarily related to stability as much as the design of the hull form and weight distribution in power only vessels. Sailing boats have different requirements, as much of the weight in a deep keel will help to counterbalance the heeling force of the wind pressure on the sails. Your reference to leeboards on the old Dutch Barges is also not really relevent, as the leeboard serves the purpose of reducing leeway in a sailing barge, which is the sideways sliding of the vessel when the wind is on the beam or close hauled. As the boat would heel with a beam wind, there would normally be a leeboard to lower on either side depending on the direction of heel. The leeboard served the same purpose as a centre board on a modern estuary sailing boat, allowing it to be used in shallower waters by raising the board.

 

As regards your comments on sea state, "I can't imagine anyone wanting to be out in a small boat if the wind is much above a force 3 so why buy a category C/D vessel if it's never going to be exposed to the conditions for which it was designed to cope". I have been to sea in various small boats over the years, where forecast and apparent conditions on setting off were 'force 2-3 sea state calm'. Actual conditions have and do change very quickly, and I have frequently been faced with conditions changing rapidly to force 4 or 5 after less than an hour. This can be purely local to your area but that is irrelevant when you are faced with them unexpectedly and you have nowhere close to take shelter. Having said that, I would consider force 4 to be quite normal for a sea boat and 4-5 lively sea sailing conditions in a well found boat. Above that I wouldn't leave port for a pleasure sail, and force 7 if I was out, would be reefed down and looking for shelter.

 

"How many pictures of yachts do you see with reefed sails? Not many because the vast majority of yotties know better than to be out in such conditions". You surely can't be serious? Unless they are in a race, most yachtsman on sea passages in reefed conditions would not have other boats all around them to take pictures. Ocean cruising is not like a Sunday afternoon on the canal. If you want to see pictures of reefed down seagoing yachts, buy any sailing magazine and look at the race reports. Reefing is not an extreme part of sailing, it is simply a normal measure to reduce sail area to avoid the rig being overpowered above certain wind strengths depending on the boat.

 

As regards steel for a seaboat, great if you can afford the cost of complex hull construction in steel. GRP is a tried and tested hull construction material that can be moulded to complex efficient hull designs, combining incredible strength and the flexibility to take heavy knocks. I would rather try to make a temporary repair on a GRP hull at sea than cope with a split weld in steel from a heavy impact. I'm very happy with the 25mm hull layup on my 30 year old motorsailer. I'm also very happy with the slab sided steel construction of my widebeam.

 

Custom builts excepted, seaboats are for sea and canal boats for canals!

 

Roger

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Great thread this, got me thinking back to my days when a Maritime Studies student at Liverpool Uni. Still have my old copy of D.R. Derrett's 'Ship Stability' somewhere, that I bought when we had to do a year long module on Naval Architecture. I always wondered what the 'Angle of Vanishing Stability' is on a standard narrowboat hull?? Similarly I've always likened a narrowboat hull - in simple mathematical terms - to a block coefficient of around 0.85, but the principles of 'Metacentric Height' and GM are not comparable to a ship of course. I wouldn't want to take my tub to sea though and test it out :wacko::help:

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Great thread this, got me thinking back to my days when a Maritime Studies student at Liverpool Uni. Still have my old copy of D.R. Derrett's 'Ship Stability' somewhere, that I bought when we had to do a year long module on Naval Architecture. I always wondered what the 'Angle of Vanishing Stability' is on a standard narrowboat hull?? Similarly I've always likened a narrowboat hull - in simple mathematical terms - to a block coefficient of around 0.85, but the principles of 'Metacentric Height' and GM are not comparable to a ship of course. I wouldn't want to take my tub to sea though and test it out :wacko::help:

 

That's quite an interesting thought about the 'Angle of vanishing stability'. As typical canalboats are fitted out for relatively horizontal boating, I wouldn't mind betting that whatever the hull design maths theory may show, once the the angle of heel goes up and some of the heavy internal furniture starts falling over, the angle of vanishing stability is going to appear fairly quickly!

 

Roger

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I always wondered what the 'Angle of Vanishing Stability' is on a standard narrowboat hull??

 

Now that's more like it - anyone got an answer? Also what sea state / wave height would put you in danger of reaching that angle from wave action alone, given either usual or extra ballasting?

 

I get the feeling, though I can't justify it, that most (yes, I know, not all) of the rabid "You can't take a NB to sea" contributors don't like the sea, full stop. I've been off the east coast in my 20' sailing weekender in a force 6 and been comfortable. My ideal would be a boat capable of travelling the whole canal network (so not widebeam), but also going to sea, and about 50' long to give the necessary space.

 

Lots of sailing boats have centreboards and internal ballast rather than ballasted keels, and flat bottoms are inherently the most stable hull form.

 

To clarify, I don't have a burning desire to visit Chichester per se (certainly not the canal), I was using it as an example of a trip beyond estuary hops, but with sheltered water at journey's end.

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I get the feeling, though I can't justify it, that most (yes, I know, not all) of the rabid "You can't take a NB to sea" contributors don't like the sea, full stop.

 

That's interesting because I got the impression that most of those that said you shouldn't take a narrowboat, that hasn't had lots of modifications, to sea are those with offshore experience, including those who have been to sea in a narrowboat.

 

Perhaps you've already made your mind up and are dismissing those people who are not saying what you want them to say.

 

Your statement that a flat bottomed boat is the most stable hull form is quite simply wrong.

 

Why do you think boat builders bother with multi-chines, round chines, v-bottoms, at all, if the cheapest and easiest boat to build was the most stable?

 

Stick to your weekend sailer, if you want to go to sea. It's designed for the job and, together with your narrowboat, you have the best of both worlds.

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I've been off the east coast in my 20' sailing weekender in a force 6 and been comfortable.

 

That just goes to illustrate the point of how unpredictable the sea is. I've also been off the east coast in a steady force 6 and been comfortable, and I've also been running down past Scroby Sands making for Gt Yarmouth in a force 5 with wind over tide and a spring flood, with 2 metre breaking waves slamming into the hull and fighting for 2 hours to stop from broaching. I wouldn't have fancied my chances in a flat bottomed narrow boat under those circumstances. That was one of those days that was forecast as force 2-3 sea state calm :(

 

Roger

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I wonder if they sell Cornetto's?

 

flake4-on-the-river-thames-400maxw-250maxh.jpg

 

Floating ice cream van sets sail on the Thames Jun 2011 FoodBev.com

 

The world’s first amphibious ice cream van has set sail down the River Thames ahead of a UK tour.

 

The vessel reaches a top speed of five knots and chimes Rod Stewart’s classic We Are Sailing as it ploughs through the water. The ‘HMS Flake 99’ was specially commissioned by Frederick’s, makers of Cadbury’s ice cream, to mark National Ice Cream Week (30 May-​5 June).

 

The ice cream van brought a smile to commuters’ faces who lined London’s river banks to catch a glimpse. After a nationwide tour of Britain’s beaches, there are plans to take the vehicle across the English Channel and on to the canals of Venice next year.

 

amphibious-icecream-van-in-blackpool-300maxw-250maxh.jpg

 

Early morning bathers and boating enthusiasts enjoyed scoops by the surf in Blackpool on Monday when the customised craft completed a successful, secret maiden voyage. Organisers are now planning a tour of UK beaches.

 

A growing number of councils ban vans from housing estates, parks and outside schools because of concerns about noise pollution. Others have created ice cream selling ‘exclusion zones’ in town centres, hiked the cost of a van operator’s licence and limited how long vans can sound their chimes.

 

Source: Cadbury’s

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Is there are hull form that would make a narrowboat more stable or is the 7 foot beam always going to be an obstacle to decent seakeeping?

Not at all, there are many 7' wide boats that are very happy in sea conditions.

 

The boat that crossed the Atlantic, "I Frances" is probably the narrowboat most heavily modified for sea use but it was specially constructed for the job:

Clicky

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Your statement that a flat bottomed boat is the most stable hull form is quite simply wrong.

 

Why do you think boat builders bother with multi-chines, round chines, v-bottoms, at all, if the cheapest and easiest boat to build was the most stable?

 

 

hmm .... I think if you ignore seakeeping ability and projections such as ballast keels, and stick to monohull types, you will find that a flat bottomed hull is most stable, of course depending on a reasonable CG height. It can be shown by simple geometry.

 

but it certainly ain't the best at going to sea.

 

indeed it may be TOO stable at reasonable angles of heel, making it very stiff and uncomfortable in a seaway.

Edited by ChrisPy
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Not at all, there are many 7' wide boats that are very happy in sea conditions.

 

The boat that crossed the Atlantic, "I Frances" is probably the narrowboat most heavily modified for sea use but it was specially constructed for the job:

Clicky

 

Fantastic!! thanks for the link :)

Edited by Morat
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