'Gas free Boats'

[blackrose]

You are probably quite right about the thickness of LB boat insulation not being very thick, but I have never seen any figures to show the percentage of insulation value difference for various thicknesses. I'm not convinced that there would be a great practical difference in the heat loss between say 12mm and 40mm, compared to 12mm and 0mm. It would be interesting to see figures from actual tests rather than my assumptions though, for my own interest.

 

Yes, above a certain thickness it's a case of diminishing returns. I often look at neighbour's boats after it's snowed to see who is retaining their heat and who isn't, but as you say, it's difficult to know how warm it is in other people's boats compared to one's own, so you're never sure if you're comparing like for like.

[bargemast]

 

 

There is a very intesting thread going on at the moment in my Yachting forum about red diesel, as it is outlawed in some eu countries for boats , with the Belgians already fining boats from any country for having any traces of red in their tanks in Belgian waters. There is apparently discussion between the UK and EU bodies about doing way completely with the taxation allowances on red diesel for boat use and possibly doing away with red diesel completely. That would effectively kill the cheaper heating allowance for fuel on boats and make diesel heating double the current cost.

 

Roger

 

 

Hello Roger,

 

the red fuel issue isn't just in Belgium, it's the same in Holland and France, as long as you have different tanks on board for propulsion with the even more expensive white liquid, and other tanks just for heating and generator use are allowed to have the red stuff, which is already costing a fortune, and prices of both are still going up.

 

Peter.

[Roger Gunkel]

Hello Roger,

 

the red fuel issue isn't just in Belgium, it's the same in Holland and France, as long as you have different tanks on board for propulsion with the even more expensive white liquid, and other tanks just for heating and generator use are allowed to have the red stuff, which is already costing a fortune, and prices of both are still going up.

 

Peter.

Yes it all seems to be a bit complex at the moment. The way I understand it, is that the Problem is the rest of the EU doesn't accept the UK allowing a lower rate of tax on red diesel but are accepting boats at the moment from the UK with red in the tank providing they have a vat paid receipt. All except Belgium who are refusing to allow any red diesel in tanks, with or without receipts and automatically imposing fines. This is also causing a problem for EU boats that are coming to the UK and can only get red diesel from UK marinas as white is just not available. The EU have ruled that British Yachtsman have to show a VAT receipt, but Belgium is refusing to accept that point blank although the French and Dutch at the moment seem to be ok.

 

So are you saying that red diesel on a lower UK tax rate is acceptable if in a seperate built in tank for heating? My understanding is that red diesel in jerry cans is not accepted and will be subject to fines.

 

Roger

[bargemast]

Yes it all seems to be a bit complex at the moment. The way I understand it, is that the Problem is the rest of the EU doesn't accept the UK allowing a lower rate of tax on red diesel but are accepting boats at the moment from the UK with red in the tank providing they have a vat paid receipt. All except Belgium who are refusing to allow any red diesel in tanks, with or without receipts and automatically imposing fines. This is also causing a problem for EU boats that are coming to the UK and can only get red diesel from UK marinas as white is just not available. The EU have ruled that British Yachtsman have to show a VAT receipt, but Belgium is refusing to accept that point blank although the French and Dutch at the moment seem to be ok.

 

So are you saying that red diesel on a lower UK tax rate is acceptable if in a seperate built in tank for heating? My understanding is that red diesel in jerry cans is not accepted and will be subject to fines.

 

Roger

 

 

I don't think that they can legally fine anyone for having fuel in a jerry can, only if it is used for the propulsion they can, but the contents of the jery can could very well be going into the generator tank or be used for heating.

 

To me this is almost like fining someone for having money in his pocket, because that money could be used to buy drugs, or guns, only if they can see the money being used to buy illegal stuff they can interfere, that is what I would think.

 

Peter.

[Arthur Brown]

I'd suggest that red in a can could easily be put into the propulsion fuel tank so they may assume that loose cans are for the higher taxed use.

 

COuld the forum find and tabulate the heat output from various fuels

 

Oil is 11 KWHr/litre, but what is coal/smokeless/timber/gas etc Then people could consider the cost of heating from each source.

[bargemast]

I'd suggest that red in a can could easily be put into the propulsion fuel tank so they may assume that loose cans are for the higher taxed use.

 

COuld the forum find and tabulate the heat output from various fuels

 

Oil is 11 KWHr/litre, but what is coal/smokeless/timber/gas etc Then people could consider the cost of heating from each source.

 

 

You have to be a bit nuts to do that, that is if you have the obligatory high taxed white fuel in your tank, pouring a can of red fuel in your tank shows up straight away, and you'll be asking for a absolutely huge fine if you are as foulish as that.

 

Peter.

[Roger Gunkel]

I don't think that they can legally fine anyone for having fuel in a jerry can, only if it is used for the propulsion they can, but the contents of the jery can could very well be going into the generator tank or be used for heating.

 

To me this is almost like fining someone for having money in his pocket, because that money could be used to buy drugs, or guns, only if they can see the money being used to buy illegal stuff they can interfere, that is what I would think.

 

Peter.

This seems to be the problem Peter as the Belgian authorities seem to have taken it on themselves to fine yachtstmen if they have red diesel onboard even if they have a valid vat receipt, on the grounds that it is illegal, even though the EU ruling says otherwise. There is a clamouring amongst yachtsmen for a test case to be brought to court. Here's a link to the Yachting forum thread if you are interested, but it is long!Link

 

Roger

[bargemast]

Hello Roger, now I can see more clearly what you are saying, and it's not an easy problem. The European law doesn't want pleasure boats to run on red-diesel, and the decision was taken many years ago, and the checks on fuel in the tanks of pleasure boaters became stricter, until you couldn't come up with an acceptable excuse anymore.

 

In all the other EU countries people have to use the easy recognisable high taxed (white) fuel, and only in the U.K. they made a sort of inbetween rule of different tax of the same coloured fuel, which (I think) is strange, as irrespective of the ammount of tax you pay, the red fuel stays red, and the 40-60% is asking for problems.

 

For narrowboats, that use very little fuel per hour, it wouldn't be too difficult to fill a few jerrycans at a road-filling station, and I would think that people that need a lot more could get road fuel delivered to their boats by tanker lorry.

 

I've been trying to find some Belgian information on the subject, and only found something in Dutch, but "Google" will be able to translate that for you, even if it's not perfect it will surely show you what this "Vlaamse Yachting Federatie" thinks of it : it's right at the top of the page where it says: "RODE DIESEL"

 

My link, they seem to say that in their opinion the customs should accept the U.K. bill for the red fuel, if it shows that 100% tax has been paid on it. Still it would be interesting to see what the outcome of a courtcase would say.

 

Peter.

[Roger Gunkel]

Thanks for that link Peter, that shows that even the Dutch think it's a complete disgrace and a right mess. The Belgians have decided that they don1'care whether it's 100% duty paid or not, if it's red it's illegal in their eyes and if it's 60/40 they don't recognise our right to that split anyway whatever the legal position is.

 

What worries me is that the UK may well bow to EU pressure and make all diesel for boats 100% duty payable.

 

Roger

[bargemast]

 

 

What worries me is that the UK may well bow to EU pressure and make all diesel for boats 100% duty payable.

 

Roger

 

 

Unless they finally do like the other EU countries, and sell 2 distinct fuels with their different taxes, 1 for the road fuel, and 1 for heating-, and generator use with the lower tax, this meens of course that boats need to have 2 different tanks.

 

On my boat I had 2 tanks already, one for each engine, but now they both use the same white fuel tank, and the other filled with red, is used mainly for the heating, and a bit for the generator if I haven't got access to shore power, I live on my boat 24/7/365.

 

Peter.

[Dave S2]

The Heritage Uno and next 2 models up use a Sterling NuWay ST40 burner.

 

Heritage reccommends the use of a 0.3 USgallonperhour nozzle. Have used 0.4 but as suggested apparently soots up the unit.

 

Grande is ST50 i believe

 

100 watts @ 230V which is not the most efficient when cruising.

 

200 litres in 2 months we used if not more... heating and cooking on a 70 x 12 boat. should have got the Compact as UNO is definitely rubbish for us, tho compact has 2 burners instead of one for separate heating and cooking. i don't care if it heats while you cook if the oven maxes out and you can't cook on the hob or indeed heat the boat since the 2 systems are connected. Why not get a dedicated cooker and dedicated heating then when one of them breaks you can still eat or be warm? had to install a woodburner anyway. best thing ever!

 

wish i had full size gas cooker, alde boiler hooked up to engine too, and back boiler on woodburner as backup for heating bedrooms etc cos the UNO plays up all the time. dis diesel is rising all the time... 92p from Pace barge boat and 88p from uxbridge

 

don't rely on one form of heating get at least 2 and when it gets to -5 you can have them all on at once! - if they work that is.

 

 

I am very disgruntled as I just replaced the nozzle and had to work out why it didn't turn on... seems the ceramic spark plugs have to be aligned properly which i have done and feel proud of myself for doing this, BIG BUT just discovered fumes leaking out of the insulation at the top because of a failed gasket which I am going to replace. I have become quite the service technician!

Edited March 8, 2012 by Dave S2

[ditchcrawler]

Funny you should say that but I very fleetingly looked at a couple of Liverpool/collingwood fitted/sailaways last year and the sprayfoam in parts was abysmal and down to less than i inch as a liveaboard of many years experience this was one of the major points to look for on my purchase. I bought the boat I am on now partly due to the 12/8/4 shell spec and again partly due to the fact the thinnest sprayfoam area I could find was nearly 2 inches with much of it being deeper.

When my hull was delivered the spray foam was the same thickness as a coat of paint in some places. To start with the company that did it offered to send me some cans of aerosol which I obviously refused. In the end thanks to my hull builder they were pleading with me to come from Wales to respray it as they had stopped getting any work.

Since then I have seen many boats that look to have between 5 and 10mm of foam on the panels, no where near level with the ribs.

The easiest way to check is to drive a pin through a small square of plywood and use that as a depth gauge.

[Dave S2]

When my hull was delivered the spray foam was the same thickness as a coat of paint in some places. To start with the company that did it offered to send me some cans of aerosol which I obviously refused. In the end thanks to my hull builder they were pleading with me to come from Wales to respray it as they had stopped getting any work.

Since then I have seen many boats that look to have between 5 and 10mm of foam on the panels, no where near level with the ribs.

The easiest way to check is to drive a pin through a small square of plywood and use that as a depth gauge.

 

 

I honestly think insulation should be 50mm thick or even more - we would all save thousands of pounds a year on fuel and the environment too. I read that 100mm spray foam should be used in order to have a temperature controlled room.

[ditchcrawler]

I honestly think insulation should be 50mm thick or even more - we would all save thousands of pounds a year on fuel and the environment too. I read that 100mm spray foam should be used in order to have a temperature controlled room.

I don't think it would save anything, you would probably sit there with the front door open letting the heat out.

[Dave S2]

I don't think it would save anything, you would probably sit there with the front door open letting the heat out.

 

 

...and have another pint of aspall cider!