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Continuous cruising case - liveaboard homes at risk


Flossie007

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OMG, you've done it now. It was only 5 pages, it'll now turn into 39 pages of links, quotes and gloats. What have you done!?!

 

I think it was you who first mentioned the stick and nest technique? ;)

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Of course, they're welcome to get off their arses, work hard, and buy a bigger, less cramped, slum. :lol:

How does working hard reduce the number of low-paid jobs? When a hospital cleaner trains for a better job, does the hospital magically not need cleaning any more in Gibbo world?

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How does working hard reduce the number of low-paid jobs? When a hospital cleaner trains for a better job, does the hospital magically not need cleaning any more in Gibbo world?

 

The hospital cleaner job is there for someone working their way up. You know, someone working hard, maybe studying part time, or building a business in their spare time, like most successful people have done: Work, instead of sitting on their fat lazy arses thinking the rest of the world owes them a living.

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The hospital cleaner job is there for someone working their way up. You know, someone working hard, maybe studying part time, or building a business in their spare time, like most successful people have done: Work, instead of sitting on their fat lazy arses thinking the rest of the world owes them a living.

It doesn't matter if they're doing the low-paid work for a year or for the rest of their lives. Someone is being expected to survive on those wages.

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It doesn't matter if they're doing the low-paid work for a year or for the rest of their lives. Someone is being expected to survive on those wages.

 

So?

 

If they don't like it they're welcome to get a better paid job. After all, if they're so confident that they're worth more they won't have any trouble whatsoever getting it will they.

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So?

 

If they don't like it they're welcome to get a better paid job. After all, if they're so confident that they're worth more they won't have any trouble whatsoever getting it will they.

Which brings us neatly back to my original point:

 

How does working hard reduce the number of low-paid jobs? When a hospital cleaner trains for a better job, does the hospital magically not need cleaning any more in Gibbo world?

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How does working hard reduce the number of low-paid jobs? When a hospital cleaner trains for a better job, does the hospital magically not need cleaning any more in Gibbo world?

Gibbo doesn't actually believe that those who want a fairer society actually exist.

 

He thinks we are all as selfish as he is but we pretend to be 'Namby Pamby, bleeding heart, wishy washy Socialists (© Gibbo)' in order to smugly occupy some moral high ground.

 

Apparently we are all 'Selfish, Me first, Daily Mail reading Tories' but some of us just won't admit it.

 

I don't see how I can argue a point with someone who doesn't believe I exist, nor do I see how Gibbo can argue with someone he doesn't think exists.

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Which brings us neatly back to my original point:

 

How does working hard reduce the number of low-paid jobs? When a hospital cleaner trains for a better job, does the hospital magically not need cleaning any more in Gibbo world?

 

Just because you don't like an answer doesn't mean it doesn't exist.

 

The fact that there are low paid jobs is not an issue. People don't have to stay in them. All they have to do is pull their finger out. In your world everyone would have equal pay. That removes a large part of the incentive to work hard and make new developments, we would all still be living in caves.

 

The problem with lefties is that they simply can't understand that money is one of the main drivers that has led to the many benefits everyone wants, yet some are not prepaired to work for.

 

He thinks we are all as selfish as he is but we pretend to be 'Namby Pamby, bleeding heart, wishy washy Socialists (© Gibbo)' in order to smugly occupy some moral high ground.

 

You're close but not exact.

 

There are plenty of "pretenders". There are several on here who absolutely stand out a mile. I don't believe you are one of them. However I do believe your apparent intelligence is completely at odds with your left wing views.

  • Greenie 1
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Gibbo doesn't actually believe that those who want a fairer society actually exist.

 

He thinks we are all as selfish as he is....

 

PS. I've seen you get extremely upset, with many people, on many separate occasions at what you perceive to be "personal insults" and yet here you are dishing them out yourself. You also, always, make the claim that it is evidence of lack of a valid argument.

 

Edit to mend broken fingers.

Edited by Gibbo
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Getting back to the topic. I've just had a look at the KandA website I believe Chris Pink is referring to, and found it well written and balanced. That doesn't mean I agree with everything it says but it's hardly frothy mouthed Red Top style, I would compare it more to the quality papers that express fact and opinion but you get the impression understand you may not agree with them.

 

Unless I'm mistaken, the National Bargee Travellers Association website is still under construction. My only experience of this group was at last year's BW AGM when a lady representing them (I forget her name) started with (and this is as close to verbatim as I can manage) "The vision for the new waterways charity makes no reference to those who live on boats, does this mean you plan to rid the canals of liveaboards?" (For reference, it didn't make any reference to freight either, not sure angling featured highly, walking the towpath lacked prominence...) The answer was no, clearly living on board was acceptable to BW so long as the rules of BW and other agencies were complied with.

 

She then followed up by asking why BW insisted on enforcing rules that had been discredited in the courts, and referred to the case of BW v Davies (i.e the case we've been discussing) as if the ruling had been given and it had gone against BW. This was last December. BW corrected her and said the case was awaiting judgement.

 

The language used such as "social cleansing" is not going to win friends and influence people when as a general rule if keep your head down BW will leave you alone. In a nutshell, if I was in a bind with BW, I'm not sure I'd want NBTA on my side.

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PS. I've seen you get extremely upset, with many people, on many separate occasions at what you perceive to be "personal insults" and yet here you are dishing them out yourself. You also, always, make the claim that it is evidence of lack of a valid argument.

 

Edit to mend broken fingers.

 

Or he claims he (rightly) has a right to criticise?? gaz.gif:P

 

Tone

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The problem with lefties is that they simply can't understand that money is one of the main drivers that has led to the many benefits everyone wants, yet some are not prepaired to work for.

 

Going back off topic, that is tosh. It is the fact of the difference in salary that is material to making a capitalist economy work, not the scale of the difference. In addition to which, most cleaners do work extremely hard because doing double shifts is about the only way to make ends meet, in fact they are working so hard that they don't get the opportunity to improve themselves. Many low wage jobs deny not equality of income (no one expects that) but equality of opportunity.

 

If hospitals think cleaners of low worth, wait until they go on strike. Within 24 hours every hospital will be closed due to lack of hygiene.

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I'm not sure I'd want NBTA on my side.

 

My impression too. Let them get some experience under their belt, and some membership first.

 

BW have been very good at quoting statements from unrepresentative folks trying to make out they are bona fide reps in negotiations, IME.

 

Tone

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Just because you don't like an answer doesn't mean it doesn't exist.

I didn't say I didn't like your answer. I said it brought us straight back to my original question.

 

The fact that there are low paid jobs is not an issue. People don't have to stay in them. All they have to do is pull their finger out.
And this is why it brings us back to my original question.

 

In a hierarchical system, someone moving up the ladder means someone else moving down. There is some scope for entrepreneurial spirit of course, but we already have graduates working in call centres, so there's not a great deal of scope for better paid work without substantial further investment.

 

In your world everyone would have equal pay. That removes a large part of the incentive to work hard and make new developments, we would all still be living in caves.

I don't know where you got that from. Possibly some cartoon image of a 'leftie' you have in that head of yours. I am in favour of pay differentials, and have stated so on here many times.

 

The problem with lefties is that they simply can't understand that money is one of the main drivers that has led to the many benefits everyone wants, yet some are not prepaired to work for.

And what you don't understand is what causes instability in capitalism. Nothing I'm saying about unions or welfare is remotely revolutionary. These policies were designed to save capitalism from itself. It's as pro-capitalist as you can get. If you allow employers to drive wages down as far as the imbalance of power allows, you end up with an economy like India or China's over the last 30 years. No internal market and a great deal of poverty, because the workers can't afford to buy what they make.

 

Back in 1929, that was a very real problem for capitalists because they couldn't have workers in another country making stuff for lower wages. Downward pressure on wages was a cause of the crash because there weren't enough people left to buy the stuff that was being produced.

 

Same deal this time around, but flavoured with globalisation. Real wages in the US have risen by 1% in real terms over the last 30 years. The UK is only slightly better than that. Consumption internally was sustained by cheap credit and a housing bubble. The problem is, that whilst globalisation allowed cheaper workers to be found elsewhere, it also meant that the cheaper workers belonged to different economies., so you get a massive trade imbalance and end up in debt to the poor worker economy.

 

The upshot of which is that Shanghai now has higher wages than a quarter of UK regions, India is recruiting call-centre workers from Europe, and we will soon be emigrating or working in sweat-shops. Especially if we stop investing in education and infrastructure and rely on a plummeting exchange rate to let us export our way out of trouble - which is the only way austerity can work in a situation with high unemployment and low interest rates. Osbornes's recently spotted plan in the OBR forecast is for us to borrow an extra £300bn in private debt, but that cannot work because the banks aren't going to lend it to us.

 

 

You're close but not exact.

 

There are plenty of "pretenders". There are several on here who absolutely stand out a mile. I don't believe you are one of them. However I do believe your apparent intelligence is completely at odds with your left wing views.

The problem with your brand of right-wingism is that it has no basis in anything. It picks and chooses from what is convenient for the rich - or rather what is easy for the super-rich to sell to the gullible with a few easy soundbites and no requirement for thinking.

 

Adam Smith advocated a land tax, on the basis that the burden would automatically fall according to ability to pay, and it can't be expatriated or hidden. He's a hero of the right, but they're curiously silent about this bit of genius. Odd that.

Edited by ymu
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PS. I've seen you get extremely upset, with many people, on many separate occasions at what you perceive to be "personal insults" and yet here you are dishing them out yourself. You also, always, make the claim that it is evidence of lack of a valid argument.

 

Sorry...It wasn't meant as an insult.

 

I thought you'd take it as a compliment.

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I didn't say I didn't like your answer. I said it brought us straight back to my original question.

 

Which had already been answered. You're very good at typing, not so good at reading.

 

<chunk snipped>

 

 

If you allow employers to drive wages down as far as the imbalance of power allows, you end up with an economy like India or China's over the last 30 years.

 

 

...

 

 

The upshot of which is that Shanghai now has higher wages than a quarter of UK regions...

 

 

Works perfectly then doesn't it.

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Gibbo doesn't actually believe that those who want a fairer society actually exist.

 

He thinks we are all as selfish as he is but we pretend to be 'Namby Pamby, bleeding heart, wishy washy Socialists (© Gibbo)' in order to smugly occupy some moral high ground.

 

Apparently we are all 'Selfish, Me first, Daily Mail reading Tories' but some of us just won't admit it.

 

I don't see how I can argue a point with someone who doesn't believe I exist, nor do I see how Gibbo can argue with someone he doesn't think exists.

I am a leftie precisely because I am selfish. 99.9% of us would be better off in a more equal society.

 

I'm also allergic to people being lefties because they're good, kind and moral. Bollocks to that.

 

This is what Thatcherism did to GDP.

 

economic-growth-yearly-1949-2010.jpg

 

And she had the North Sea Oil bonanza behind her too.

 

The best thing that can be said about her knowledge of economics is that she was a bloody good chemist.

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Gibbo doesn't actually believe that those who want a fairer society actually exist.

 

He thinks we are all as selfish as he is but we pretend to be 'Namby Pamby, bleeding heart, wishy washy Socialists (© Gibbo)' in order to smugly occupy some moral high ground.

 

 

I think you spout the left wing, namby pamby crap because you think it makes you look good and caring. You're as right wing, capitalist and uncaring as they come but far too scared to admit it.

;)

Edited by carlt
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The problem with lefties is that they simply can't understand that money is one of the main drivers that has led to the many benefits everyone wants, yet some are not prepaired to work for.

 

 

 

I don't know about lefties but money as a driver does not work for me when its the £145,000 basic salary of a recently taken on 'Director of People' (aka head clerk in council education department) who the wants to close our local school to save the council less than £40,000 and can only do it by fiddling the figures and the rules then denying he is even though they are his newly minted figures and rules.

Edited by Tiny
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Sorry...It wasn't meant as an insult.

 

I thought you'd take it as a compliment.

Gobbo plays banjo you know. Probably on the porch. Typical redneck behaviour.

I hope he is rich enough to provide for his own health care when the tories wreck the NHS.

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