BW VOLUNTEERS

[Pluto]

I don't often agree with you, but having met Robin Evan's a few times, and as a result being on first name terms with him, I have some sympathy, to my mind he has done a difficult job well up to a point (David Fletcher was far to gung ho) but he should have defended BW against some of the cuts. The present problems began well before the recession and when DEFRA got fined over non-payment of EU farm grants he should have been banging on David Milliband's door telling him in no uncertain terms that this wasn't BW's problem. The funding position got to the point where confrontation was needed and he bottled it.

At least Dave Fletcher had some idea about a future policy for BW, even if you didn't agree with it. I did have some correspondence with Robin Evans about the sale of Greenberfield Lock Cottage, and he bottled out of that. In 2006, I suggested to him that the sale of such properties would make it much more difficult to develop interpretation and visitor centres, which could have been run by volunteers, that the sale would also adversely affect water control, and there would probably be problems with new owners regarding visitors to Greenberfield and with the canal heritage environment. All of the points I made to him have proved correct, but at the time he would not continue any discussion about the sale. It would seem that he did not - and still does not - have a clear idea where BW were going so could not deal with any criticism. This would, of course, make it impossible for him to deal with cuts from DEFRA.

[Natalie Graham]

That is what BW would have us believe but when volunteers spoke to the union they were told that they had no objection because jobs were being created.

Sue

 

That isn't how I remember it, having been actively involved with canal restoration at the time.

[Laurence Hogg]

CanalScape-BCN is the first private society to have undertook volunteer work here in the West Midlands. We have been just cutting back trees that impair the navigation. Currently we are doing bits on the Wyrley and Essington and the Cannock Extension. Whilst we are doing it for BW, we do it when we please and work not too hard! The nice thing is, it makes a difference and whilst the work isnt skilled it does allow the full time BW staff to get on with more important work. So for those who venture around our way and find no branches rubbing the paintwork, it might be down to us! This is nothing short of "adopting" your local canal - anyone remember that excercise a time ago?

[luctor et emergo]

CanalScape-BCN is the first private society to have undertook volunteer work here in the West Midlands. We have been just cutting back trees that impair the navigation. Currently we are doing bits on the Wyrley and Essington and the Cannock Extension. Whilst we are doing it for BW, we do it when we please and work not too hard! The nice thing is, it makes a difference and whilst the work isnt skilled it does allow the full time BW staff to get on with more important work. So for those who venture around our way and find no branches rubbing the paintwork, it might be down to us! This is nothing short of "adopting" your local canal - anyone remember that excercise a time ago?

 

 

That is all good and well, and laudable, but where is the line where skilled and qualified (usually at substantial and personal costs) people are supposed to volunteer their skills for free.

 

The above for example. Fine, to have a qualified Boat Master volunteering to drive a passenger boat. But how, and when, is he supposed to earn a living ? Or is there a glut of qualified Boat Masters, who have very well paid part-time jobs, who can afford to volunteer?

 

In comparison, if anybody thought that I might volunteer my truck or coach driving skills (licence) to replace a paid position, to save an orginasation money, they could sit on it an spin.

 

Especially if the directors are not replaced by volunteers as wel...

[Morat]

Would I get a free hi-viz jacket?

[sueb]

That isn't how I remember it, having been actively involved with canal restoration at the time.

It happened on the K&A, we met a union official in the pub that the wrgies were meeting up in. He told us that they had never been asked by BW about volunteers and that they had no objection.

Sue

 

Would I get a free hi-viz jacket?

You may get a BW life jacket Two were seen on the Mersey crossing.

Sue

 

Someone volunteered to analyse a BW survey and did a fantastic job as he was a retired statistician I believe.

Sue

[luctor et emergo]

It happened on the K&A, we met a union official in the pub that the wrgies were meeting up in. He told us that they had never been asked by BW about volunteers and that they had no objection.

Sue

 

 

You may get a BW life jacket Two were seen on the Mersey crossing.

Sue

 

Someone volunteered to analyse a BW survey and did a fantastic job as he was a retired statistician I believe.

Sue

 

Perhaps there is a difference between a canal restoration, which tends to be run and worked by volunteers anyway, and the upkeep of an existing, commercial, canal, which is currently operated and maintained by paid employees. If Paid jobs are to be replaced by unpaid volunteers, I don't think the union will be so compliant. Or maybe they will be. It's only a ditch. Not a sexy, ethnic, gender biased, headline grabbing case that gets the union lots of news coverage.... (sorry, I digress...).

 

So if the powers that be get their way, we will soon be the equivalent of a high street charity shop..?

 

 

Nice.

[rgreg]

I am still unconvinced, though trying very hard to understand how this whole volunteer/ charity status arrangement is going to work and be funded. The waterways network is a complex animal when compared to, say, the National Trust. Should we trust the BW Management to have it all worked out or should be concerned? Right now I'm in the "concerned" camp but open to persuasion.

[Jim Jam]

I did some work on the Droitwich canal restoration last year when made redundant and from what I remember, if you use volunteers, there is a way to get more grants etc the more hours volunteers do - not sure if its a charitu thing or something, but it was something to get up in the morning to do

[cotswoldsman]

Not really a valid comparison

 

- automated self service checkouts are common in Sainsbury's and Tesco's too.

 

They will never replace full service checkouts as they only really work if you have a relatively small amount of shopping, try taking a full trolley through them - it just doesn't work, plus the self service checkouts still have to be 'staffed' (1 to four so much more efficient) to authorise age related purchases, and if I'm honest I quite like using them, so they are meeting a customer need.

 

I disagree infact after visiting Sainsbury's at Gloucester this week I found the place so bad I wrote a letter to Justin King (who I do know) part of the letter covered the subject of self checkout as follows

 

Quote

 

I then proceeded to the checkout only to find that this morning there was only one checkout open with about three people waiting. There were a lot of staff standing around so I suggested that it might be a good idea to open another till, I was informed that there were not enough staff on duty to open another till!! I was amazed that at 9am there was only enough staff in store to open one till. I was then advised I could go to the self scan till and do it myself, now call me old fashioned but I do not go shopping to then be converted into a checkout operator, what next? will I be expected to also fill the shelves? Or maybe go to the in store butchers with no stock and cut the meat myself? (If you do decide to go down this road do you have a reward scheme for my suggestion?)

 

 

Unquote

[mayalld]

Not really a valid comparison

 

- automated self service checkouts are common in Sainsbury's and Tesco's too.

 

They will never replace full service checkouts as they only really work if you have a relatively small amount of shopping, try taking a full trolley through them - it just doesn't work, plus the self service checkouts still have to be 'staffed' (1 to four so much more efficient) to authorise age related purchases, and if I'm honest I quite like using them, so they are meeting a customer need.

 

You have clearly only experienced phase 1 of the self chekout experience!

 

Once people get used to them, they replace them with the phase 2 system, in which there are 10 checkouts per staff member.

 

Also, you will find that overnight in 24 hour stores, only the self checkout is open.

[Derek R.]

This is a digression from the main topic, but 'self-service' has been around a long time from cafeterias to shops, and I well remember the first self-serve petrol station I used - no more queuing and waiting for the one attendant to fill you up - instead you queued and waited to pay him in his little shop - and we still do!! But you still had an interface with another human being. I'll even shy away from the totally automated pay at the pump fuel stations - including those abroad. As to self-pumpouts, I've been self tipping for far longer - I'll pour my own thanks - and public toilets with attendants are generally a lot cleaner and less vandalised than without - the cost of self serve? Un-manned is often unprotected. Before jobsworth security guards we had night-watchmen, anyone remember them? Job cuts, benefit cuts, volunteers a-plenty for 'something to do'. It doesn't make for structured society. Self employed business ventures are beset with regulations and financial committments that put many off of even starting - hence the plethora of schemes to 'work from home in your own time making thousand each week'. For most it's wishful thinking, with tricks and traps for the unwary. Automation and volunteers have their place, but they should not TAKE our place. As the cost of living has increased, so has the cost of employment. I see more affluence amongst the working classes in comparison to fifty years ago, but there is a great divide that's going to get wider with increasing food and commodity costs and lack of reasonably paid work to pay for it. Cuts harm, whether physical or financial. The only winners sit on boards with precious little practical experience and second homes in the Algarve or wherever - and a few entreprenurials scrambling from poor backgrounds.

 

Sorry, bit of a rant.

 

I think the defining line between what many volunteers are able to do, and what the employed are able to do, comes with the working of specialist machinery. Whether it's cutting, digging or lifting, operating ability requires documentation and skills that are program taught, you don't just climb into a Kubota or work a Hiab without some form of practice at least, but instruction on safe use at best. I think L & E will know that! There is a similarity with automated check-outs - if you've never worked them before - you get stuck very quickly, and the 1 to 4 ratio of assistants to check-outs has them running from one to another constantly.

 

Derek

[drunkensailor]

There is no conspiracy here. Saying it is implies that BW have considered the implications.

[Natalie Graham]

what i find difficult to comprehend is that back in the 80's they went all against volunteers stopping many projects in their tracks.

 

 

To be fair that was because of the union objecting to volunteer's doing work on the waterways. I wonder what they have to say about this.

 

 

It happened on the K&A, we met a union official in the pub that the wrgies were meeting up in. He told us that they had never been asked by BW about volunteers and that they had no objection.

 

Sue, we are talking about the same period aren't we? My recollection is very clear that the block on the voluntary working in the 80's (actually it started in the 70"s) that hamsterfan mentioned was solely due to the Union objecting to voluntary workers on the canals.

[kbarber]

Grounds Maintenance Volunteer, Anderton Boat Lift. Ever fancied being like royalty, with the constant smell of fresh paint.

 

Huh??!!

A story I was told by the former station manager of Tattenham Corner.

 

The station building is about 1/2 way along the platform. Every year HM came down for the Derby; the railway side & London end of the building were given a coat of paint and the curtains (kept in the SM's office) were hung in the windows. On the day the visiting dignitaries and railway officials lined up along (but most definitely not on) the red carpet and, when in position, a flunky came along & wiped any speck of dust off of their shoes in time for the train to arrive.

 

One day, as HM was being introduced (for the umpteenth time, no doubt) to the Divisional Paperclip Director or somesuch, Phil suggested to the SM that they go for a walk. Which they did. Towards the bufferstops. And when they got there, inevitably, they had to turn round and go back.

 

There, in all its glory, was the peeling paint at the country end of the station. HRH looked it a long hard look then quietly said to the SM: "I thought you did that."

 

The station was never specially painted for Derby Day again...

[kbarber]

I think the defining line between what many volunteers are able to do, and what the employed are able to do, comes with the working of specialist machinery. Whether it's cutting, digging or lifting, operating ability requires documentation and skills that are program taught, you don't just climb into a Kubota or work a Hiab without some form of practice at least, but instruction on safe use at best. I think L & E will know that! There is a similarity with automated check-outs - if you've never worked them before - you get stuck very quickly, and the 1 to 4 ratio of assistants to check-outs has them running from one to another constantly.

 

Derek

I don't think there's necessarily a problem with volunteers operating specialist machinery. The heritage railway sector has an awful lot of that. Much of the restoration of locos - both steam and diesel - is done by volunteers; heritage railway workshops nowadays have tools which, in sophistication if not in number, are the equal of anything you'd find on the "big" railway. Operations, too, are in the hands of volunteers. Is a steam loco not specialist machinery? Or a diesel? What about a signalbox? The latter was most probably installed, commissioned and maintained by volunteers too. IIRC the Severn Valley had such a reputation that the Railway Inspectorate (as it then was) allowed them to open Kidderminster Town Signalbox in advance of inspection. So it can be done.

 

I do think we need to be concerned. If volunteers are being used by a commercial organisation for nothing more than cost-cutting, while the management continues to operate in the same old way, we are indeed on the edge of a dangerously slippery slope. An organisation the size of BW will always need a full-time management (and indeed many full-time staff) and it's only right that they be paid the rate for the job (which doesn't mean the sort of salary that bears comparison with the banking sector and bonus to match). But the railway sector shows that full-timers, part-timers and volunteers can and do work together, if the conditions are right, to achieve things that could never be managed by either group alone. As concerned "critical friends" we can do our bit to keep BW (and indeed the IWA and others if occasion arises) honest. But I feel that has to go alongside helping them with new initiatives that might offer a way forward (and indeed helping by criticising the detail of those that seem ill-conceived). We need to accept failures too, provided they don't lead to safety failures - they will give as much useful information about what works as the successes and intolerance of failure will simply prevent necessary change.

 

What worries me about the posts advertised here is that BW seem to think they can fill them just as they would paid jobs. As others have said, people need to be able to earn a living as well as volunteer. In my experience, a volunteer-run railway usually has many more volunteers than posts and a substantial infrastructure of roster clerks (paid, voluntary or both) to ensure that necessary turns are covered - and still they struggle on occasion, which is where paid staff may occasionally be essential (Area Manager clearing a blocked by-wash channel perhaps?) If anyone on this forum does have contacts in high places, that is the sort of thing they need to be feeding back so that the scheme has half a chance of working rather than falling flat on its face when the Boatmaster has to go to work in his/her regular employment.

[sociable_hermit]

The strangest thing about those adverts is that they're written in the singular.

 

Believe it or not, there are a lot of people around who quite like doing a bit of voluntary work in their spare time.

 

On the railways where I work there are people who look after the station gardens, and very nice they look too. There are also some more hardened individuals who work out on the lineside cutting back the scrub, not to mention fencing gangs and also extension gangs relaying track. They all do it for nothing.

 

For many of these people it is something to do to keep them fit and outdoors, rather than vegetating in front of the telly. Others like the contrast with their paid jobs - getting outside is nice if you've been in an office all week. HOWEVER no-one I know does this kind of work for 8 hours a day 5 days a week. There are normally different teams who each do 'their' day every week working on their particular project. In fact, the minority who do turn up for 2 or 3 days a week very often work in completely different teams on the different days - I know one chap who is a buffet car steward on Tuesdays, a Booking Clerk on Wednesdays, a ganger on Thursdays and a station handyman on Sundays. But this is exceptional and most people do one day a week at most.

 

This means that to cover one full time role 7 days a week you'll probably need at least 7 volunteers, and a manager / roster clerk to look after them (who could also be a volunteer, but would need the relevant skills and experience). That in turn means that for very small outposts in the middle of nowhere, where only one or two staff are required, it's a lot of hassle to organise. There are distinct economies of scale with volunteering.

 

Calling for a Skipper with all certification in place is daft. Firstly, if you do it for a job already, why would you want to do it for a hobby too? Most volunteers deliberately do work that is different from the rest of their lives. And surely offering to train them up should be part of the reward for volunteering?

 

The groundsman's job might actually attract a few volunteers doing a day a week, or maybe a couple of hours a day, provided they are looked after properly and their efforts are recognised. They're not exactly selling it with that 'fresh paint' comment though - it instantly reminded me of the Forth Bridge, i.e. a thankless task, never finished!

 

The cafe job is the one least likely to attract anyone, I would have thought, but again it depends on how it is organised and what the job is like. A cosy little shop by the cut might be quite nice, especially for a boating-orientated Granny with a penchant for cookery and the towpath telegraph. A cafe full of screaming kids and dirty dishes, rushing around all day selling pre-packaged food at rip off prices, though? Forget it.

 

 

Just to add that we've posted much the same thing at the same time, I see.

 

I'm totally in agreement that BW haven't got their heads around managing volunteers. It will involve a significant shift in organisational style, not just removing the renumeration line from the adverts.

[Mick and Maggie]

I see more affluence amongst the working classes in comparison to fifty years ago, but there is a great divide that's going to get wider with increasing food and commodity costs and lack of reasonably paid work to pay for it. Cuts harm, whether physical or financial. The only winners sit on boards with precious little practical experience and second homes in the Algarve or wherever - and a few entreprenurials scrambling from poor backgrounds.

 

Do you remember Harold Wilsons "White Heat of Technology" and the technocratic aim of taking better advantage of rapid scientific progress . With the oft touted view of a new future where we could all sit around like Lotus Eaters. Maybe it's come to pass, and the Lotus Eaters are at BW HQ...

 

Pip Pip old boy.

 

Pass the port Rodney.

[carlt]

Maybe it's come to pass, and the Lotus Eaters are at BW HQ...

Tuck in!

 

 

[Natalie Graham]

On the railways where I work there are people who look after the station gardens, and very nice they look too. There are also some more hardened individuals who work out on the lineside cutting back the scrub, not to mention fencing gangs and also extension gangs relaying track. They all do it for nothing.

 

I don't think Railtrack, or whoever they are today, would expect to rely on volunteers maintain the track though would they?

[sociable_hermit]

I don't think Railtrack, or whoever they are today, would expect to rely on volunteers maintain the track though would they?

No, but the two aren't directly comparable. Network Rail do most of their maintenance at night and often with trains running at high speeds on adjacent lines. However they do encourage volunteers where it is practical to do so:

 

S&C railway trust

 

ACoRP

 

BW has far more in common with preserved railways than with Network Rail, in any case.

[Mikeonb4c]

I told you so,, its the end of your B/W Staff, from moorings licence staff to the bank side oppo guys, the more you agree to them/volunteers, the more we go (asks your waterway group for clarity), it wont be called `volunteers` ect it will be called something like the inland waterway trust membership group,, if you like what you have had , even though you have disagreed with our/B.W policy’s, fight for B/W staff, if not, good luck with your future,, your seeing how its panning out now,, don’t moan about it, remember its time to put your hands where your mouth is, boats without a license, towpath over hangers, long towpath grass. dog muck, kids chucking stones, boaters empting their bilge out, fly tipping ect ect ect ,, just get your gloves on,,,,, there’s no one to ring anymore........... We won’t exist.

 

I agree. This move to try and attract volunteers as a substitute for paying staff is disturbing. How does this help hard up people who need to earn a wage get back into work, or stay in work? It frightens me that we seriously believe this is the road to anywhere. Yes its great to have volunteers who......errrrrrr....volunteer, but parading semi-nakedly a desire to get work done for free on the one hand while collecting revenue on the other hand, is scary stuff.

[Natalie Graham]

BW has far more in common with preserved railways than with Network Rail, in any case.

 

I am not sure I agree with that. If the canals were run by their own societies, for example if the Chesterfield Canal Trust actually owned, or leased, the Chesterfield Canal, and were responsible for maintenance and operation, then that would be equivalent to the preserved railways. BW is a publicly funded and owned body with a statutory responsibility to maintain the waterways network. Preserved railways have no obligations other than those they choose to set themselves. I have considerable doubts that BW would be able to discharge their statutory duty if they were reliant upon voluntary labour.

[Mikeonb4c]

I am not sure I agree with that. If the canals were run by their own societies, for example if the Chesterfield Canal Trust actually owned, or leased, the Chesterfield Canal, and were responsible for maintenance and operation, then that would be equivalent to the preserved railways. BW is a publicly funded and owned body with a statutory responsibility to maintain the waterways network. Preserved railways have no obligations other than those they choose to set themselves. I have considerable doubts that BW would be able to discharge their statutory duty if they were reliant upon voluntary labour.

 

Indeed, and what is the situation with voluntary workers who suffer industrial injury, decide they can't be bothered to turn up for work because its a sunny day etc. etc. - how are the organisation and the volunteer tied into legal obligations to each other? You can't run a dependable operation (statutory duty etc.) without these.

 

It's all a morally bankrupt economic nonsense. But then so much is these days. Anyone fancy escaping on a narrowboat and leaving it all behind? Woops, forgot, that's why everyone is here ha ha!

[rgreg]

And of course there still remains the BIG question of who pays for this new Waterways Trust. Currently all taxpayers contribute to the waterways and BW has a legal obligation to maintain the system. Will that legal obligation pass to the Trust? Is there a funding plan proposed or are we going to end up rattling collection boxes to towpath users and begging people to volunteer to help run it?