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Where is VHF Actually Used, Please ?


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OK,

 

I've done the course, so now wish to purchase a radio.

 

I know there have been a lot of posts previously about use of VHF on inland waters, but many have concentrated on "optional" use.

 

My initial interest will be the tidal Thames, where, so far as I can tell, little or no use is made of the "digital" side of these radios, (and which on the face of it made a large percentage of my training irrelevant for a radio used there!).

 

But trying to think of the future, where else might I end up with my narrow boat, where VHF is advisable or mandatory ?

 

The Severn ? The Trent ? Even the Manchester Ship Canal, (OK, not for a year or two yet, methinks!).

 

Where, else - where do you use yours, please, (.... I'm not really interested in estuaries and coasts that I'm unlikely to travel to!).

 

At which, if any of of these "inland" places do DSC, MMSI, etc have any relevance at all ?

 

Or can I always just achieve everything I am ever likely to want to with a simple hand-held, that lacks all the "digital", please ?

 

Yours in ignorance (!)

 

Alan

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OK,

 

I've done the course, so now wish to purchase a radio.

 

I know there have been a lot of posts previously about use of VHF on inland waters, but many have concentrated on "optional" use.

 

My initial interest will be the tidal Thames, where, so far as I can tell, little or no use is made of the "digital" side of these radios, (and which on the face of it made a large percentage of my training irrelevant for a radio used there!).

 

But trying to think of the future, where else might I end up with my narrow boat, where VHF is advisable or mandatory ?

 

The Severn ? The Trent ? Even the Manchester Ship Canal, (OK, not for a year or two yet, methinks!).

 

Where, else - where do you use yours, please, (.... I'm not really interested in estuaries and coasts that I'm unlikely to travel to!).

 

At which, if any of of these "inland" places do DSC, MMSI, etc have any relevance at all ?

 

Or can I always just achieve everything I am ever likely to want to with a simple hand-held, that lacks all the "digital", please ?

 

Yours in ignorance (!)

 

Alan

I hope you enjoyed the course Alan.

 

As you know, the PLA use VHF on the tidal Thames, but you'd find no use for any of the more exotic facilities there. In fact in 6 years I've never found anywhere that I could use any of the extra facilities apart from dual or triple watch (listening on 2 or 3 channels at once). It is particularly useful to be able to monitor the commercial shipping channels at the same time as the lock-keepers' channels - and for that you will almost certainly need triple-watch because on most radios the second channel on dual-watch is always channel 16.

 

I've used it on the following waterways, IIRC:

 

  • the tidal Thames: just one transmission to VTS at each end of the trip, otherwise simply listening
  • the non-tidal Trent: extremely useful as it ensures that every lock is just opening for you as you approach
  • the tidal Trent: extremely useful for monitoring the movements of commercial traffic, and for contacting the locks to exit the tideway
  • the non-tidal Severn: extremely useful as it ensures that every lock is just opening for you as you approach (especially at Gloucester)
  • the tidal Severn: not absolutely essential as the pilot brings his own hand-held, but for us the extra power meant we could talk to the coastguard at Barry to get updates on the worsening weather
  • the Bristol Avon: almost essential to talk to Avonmouth VTS and the lock-keeper at Bristol
  • the Gloucester and Sharpness canal: extremely useful as it ensures that every bridge is just opening for you as you approach
  • The river Weaver: extremely useful as it ensures that every lock is just opening for you as you approach

 

On the Severn I found that I had to use the full 25 watt output to contact the lock keepers if I was more than quarter of a mile away from them, because I think they turn their squelch right up to ensure that they don't get disturbed by transmissions from the other locks.

 

Personally I can't see that you gain much by having a hand-held instead of a fixed unit. They aren't that much cheaper, they are more awkward to use, they often don't have enougfh audio power to hear clearly over the sound of the engine, and they don't have as much range.

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We have both a Sailor fixed unit just inside the hatchway and also use an Icom handheld.

 

We don't have DSC and have never found a need for it.

 

Personally, I prefer the fixed set as it has the extra grunt when needed and the batteries don't fail on you when you need them most.

 

The portable is much easier to hang round your neck, put to your ear in noisy environments and drop in the water.

 

I think I if I ever fitted again (i.e. on a new boat), then I would look at the fixed sets which have a control-handset enabling you to change channel and adjust the volume from the palm of your hand but with the added convenience of 25W and a proper aerial.

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Thanks both....

 

Very useful, particularly Allan's list of "where used".

 

I've just had a quick squint through some Nicholsons, and if there was an obvious reference (for example) to use of VHF on the Weaver, then I managed to miss it.

 

So the answer seems to be that....

 

1) We have already visited several rivers where it would have been a useful, but non essential facility.

2) Worth avoiding "dual watch" in lieu of at least "triple watch".

3) The DSC and other digital facilities are likely to be of little use in any "inland" situation, (though I guess if travelling in the same area, or planning to meet up, we could all link them to GPS, and query where each other's boats were ?!?)

4) But it's still probably worth going for a fixed set, as the extra power and volume may prove useful.

 

So far as I can see most of even the "fixed" sets claim a high degree of water resistance or water-proofing. Mind you, as use of the SO 239 antenna socket seems inevitable, the typical SO239 / PL 259 combination is about as waterproof as a sponge! How have those rotten things survived for VHF and UHF usage ?

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So far as I can see most of even the "fixed" sets claim a high degree of water resistance or water-proofing. Mind you, as use of the SO 239 antenna socket seems inevitable, the typical SO239 / PL 259 combination is about as waterproof as a sponge! How have those rotten things survived for VHF and UHF usage ?

I may be wrong about the Weaver, my memory isn't what it was. But I think I used it there.

 

My set says it is guaranteed waterproof to a depth of 15 metres. So as long as I can keep the antenna above water, it can still keep broadcasting my position after the boat has sunk in 50 feet of water.

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My set says it is guaranteed waterproof to a depth of 15 metres. So as long as I can keep the antenna above water, it can still keep broadcasting my position after the boat has sunk in 50 feet of water.

As my old back up radio is being replaced, after it fell into the water, whilst being fitted in the runabout, the waterproof qualities do have their uses, even if it isn't being fitted in the cockpit of a yacht.

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I may be wrong about the Weaver, my memory isn't what it was. But I think I used it there.

 

They do have VHF facilities on the Weaver but don't count on them keeping a constant radio watch. They use mobile phones much more, lock keepers seem to carry them at all times and will ring you back if they miss a call.

 

Tim

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They do have VHF facilities on the Weaver but don't count on them keeping a constant radio watch. They use mobile phones much more, lock keepers seem to carry them at all times and will ring you back if they miss a call.

 

Tim

 

It certainly seems to be the case that mobile phones are used more and more these days in areas where the use of VHF was once the only (and preferred) means of communication. This is particularly true of the River Severn, Gloucester & Sharpness and we even used the mobile phone to keep in touch with Avonmouth VTS during a passage from Portishead to Bristol Docks.

 

We both took the radio exam some time ago but, so far, we have only ever used our VHF radio for listening in - even on the Trent where we had intended to use the radio for talking to the lock keepers it proved to be unnecessary because whenever we were within range of the next lock, we would hear another boat either behind us or in front of us talking to the lock keeper and they invariably advised that we also were approaching - perhaps they did this believing that narrow boats are not VHF equipped. And, even when we went aground we found that the mobile phone was, by far, the easiest means of communication with the lock keeper at Torksey.

 

Our hand held set (Icom M71) is sufficiently powerful for any use it is ever likely to get on 'Alnwick' and 99% of the time it is safely locked away. I have added the link because Force 4 currently have them on special offer!

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Thanks both....

 

Very useful, particularly Allan's list of "where used".

 

I've just had a quick squint through some Nicholsons, and if there was an obvious reference (for example) to use of VHF on the Weaver, then I managed to miss it.

 

So the answer seems to be that....

 

1) We have already visited several rivers where it would have been a useful, but non essential facility.

2) Worth avoiding "dual watch" in lieu of at least "triple watch".

3) The DSC and other digital facilities are likely to be of little use in any "inland" situation, (though I guess if travelling in the same area, or planning to meet up, we could all link them to GPS, and query where each other's boats were ?!?)

4) But it's still probably worth going for a fixed set, as the extra power and volume may prove useful.

 

So far as I can see most of even the "fixed" sets claim a high degree of water resistance or water-proofing. Mind you, as use of the SO 239 antenna socket seems inevitable, the typical SO239 / PL 259 combination is about as waterproof as a sponge! How have those rotten things survived for VHF and UHF usage ?

You can buy a good ICOM VHF without DSC on Ebay for about half the price of a new one. I have an ICOM 401 euro base set and an Entel HT portable both are fully waterproof.

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You can buy a good ICOM VHF without DSC on Ebay for about half the price of a new one. I have an ICOM 401 euro base set and an Entel HT portable both are fully waterproof.

 

Some of the lumpy water boaters are buying DSC kit and selling off their older stuff.

DSC can be a disadvantage in 'inland' situations because some port authorities don't use it, an automatic emergency call might go unnoticed. There was an MCA inquiry which touched on this a while ago, can't remember the details but a google search or search of the MCA site will probably turn it up.

 

 

Tim

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I don't know specifically which ones you are looking at, but a lot are only splashproof (check IP rating) on the front panel when fitted into a console i.e. the DC connector and aerial connector on the back aren't.

 

We have ours console mounted in the side panel to the right of the steerer and it is protected from the weather by the hatch on rainy days. A lot also come with plastic clip-on covers to protect them when not in use (i.e most of the time)..

 

I fit/replace a lot of VHF aerials on ships and use self amalgamating tape to seal the joints.

 

Edited to add that the Icom IC-M401 looks pretty well protected except the connector. Unless you like things that bleep everytime you touch them, make sure the key bleep can be switched off.

 

So far as I can see most of even the "fixed" sets claim a high degree of water resistance or water-proofing. Mind you, as use of the SO 239 antenna socket seems inevitable, the typical SO239 / PL 259 combination is about as waterproof as a sponge! How have those rotten things survived for VHF and UHF usage ?
Edited by NB Willawaw
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I have this one

http://www.marinescene.co.uk/product/4764/...0-dsc-vhf-radio

on the barge mainly because it has ATIS if I ever get to mainland europe

 

and this one

http://www.marinescene.co.uk/product/309/c...5-dsc-vhf-radio

on the Yot

Both work well and are waterproof to IPx7 which means 1m depth.

 

Receiver on the midland seems slightly more sensitive The Cobra will reach London VTS from teddington with ease

I will try and remember to let you know about the Midland after next weekend.

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I often single-hand on the Thames tideway and I keep a waterproof handheld clipped to my lifejacket. My reasoning is that it might be useful if I ever fell off the boat. The mobile phone in my pocket would be fried, but the VHF radio would still work.

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I don't know specifically which ones you are looking at, but a lot are only splashproof (check IP rating) on the front panel when fitted into a console i.e. the DC connector and aerial connector on the back aren't.

 

We have ours console mounted in the side panel to the right of the steerer and it is protected from the weather by the hatch on rainy days. A lot also come with plastic clip-on covers to protect them when not in use (i.e most of the time)..

 

I fit/replace a lot of VHF aerials on ships and use self amalgamating tape to seal the joints.

 

Edited to add that the Icom IC-M401 looks pretty well protected except the connector. Unless you like things that bleep everytime you touch them, make sure the key bleep can be switched off.

Could you recommend a good but cheap marine vhf aerial for nbs. Though I have a handheld, I have acquired an old set for fixed installation without an aerial. I have not got round to testing it yet being unwilling to fork out for an expensive whip in advance and, was wary of trying with a CB aerial that has the same connections but wrong length/characteristics. I have looked at making your own using Co-Ax and pvc conduit but have not had the time to have a play.

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Could you recommend a good but cheap marine vhf aerial for nbs. Though I have a handheld, I have acquired an old set for fixed installation without an aerial. I have not got round to testing it yet being unwilling to fork out for an expensive whip in advance and, was wary of trying with a CB aerial that has the same connections but wrong length/characteristics. I have looked at making your own using Co-Ax and pvc conduit but have not had the time to have a play.

A CB aerial will definitely NOT work. Do not try it, it could damage the radio.

 

I use an amateur radio 2-meter band aerial with about an inch and a half cut off the end. It definitely seems to work better than the fibre-glass marine aerials, and has the advantage of being totally flexible so it doesn't snap if you go under a low bridge; it incorporates a hinge so it can lie flat on the roof if you are just listening, which means it doesn't get caught up in the centre-line; and with a PL259 connector it fits to a range of mounts including a magnetic mount or (as in my case) a permanent SO239 on the roof.

 

So if you know any radio amateurs, see if one of them has an old 2m aerial lying around somewhere.

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We have used our VHF a lot on the Trent, Ouse and Humber. Comes in handy for letting the lockies know you are heading their way and also comes in handy for keeping an eye on commercial traffic movements.

 

Alan if you are buying a new fixed set you may struggle to find one without DSC features. It is becoming pretty standard nowadays.

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name='blodger' post='521443' date='Apr 26 2010, 10:22 AM']Could you recommend a good but cheap marine vhf aerial for nbs. Though I have a handheld, I have acquired an old set for fixed installation without an aerial. I have not got round to testing it yet being unwilling to fork out for an expensive whip in advance and, was wary of trying with a CB aerial that has the same connections but wrong length/characteristics. I have looked at making your own using Co-Ax and pvc conduit but have not had the time to have a play.

Use a steel whip like this one..Clicky[quote

Edited by Dalesman
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Since you asked my opinion, we use a short steel whip with a mag-mount. Can't remember the make, but could look if you're interested.

Not the best performance aerial, but a compromise for bridges, overhanging branches etc.

 

On a salty boat, I would choose something entirely different.

 

Keep the coax as short as possible. Most of these type of aerials come with a few metres already connected/moulded.

 

Edited to add: be careful of making your own aerial - could be a good way of blowing the output PA stage of your radio - will cost you a lot more than the £30-40 it costs to buy an aerial.

 

Could you recommend a good but cheap marine vhf aerial for nbs. Though I have a handheld, I have acquired an old set for fixed installation without an aerial. I have not got round to testing it yet being unwilling to fork out for an expensive whip in advance and, was wary of trying with a CB aerial that has the same connections but wrong length/characteristics. I have looked at making your own using Co-Ax and pvc conduit but have not had the time to have a play.
Edited by NB Willawaw
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My 2p

on the Yot I use one of these

http://www.marinescene.co.uk/product/2661/...-wind-indicator

but then its at the top of a 30ft mast

On the barge

I have one of these

http://www.marinescene.co.uk/product/2668/...eglass-antenna-

mounted on this

http://www.marinescene.co.uk/product/2667/...n-ratchet-mount

Could do well on a NB can be folded flat when not in use or removed entirely.

Excellent range

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I knew a chap called Peter Verralls who started Vtronix down in Poole.

I think they sold out to the US company Shakespeare a few years ago.

Good aerials, but at 1.5m can easily get caught up on overhanging stuff on canals, but I guess you would mainly need it in the "up" position on rivers and more open waterways.

 

The 6dBi gain is good on boats that don't roll much, as would be the case on inland waterways.

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I knew a chap called Peter Verralls who started Vtronix down in Poole.

I think they sold out to the US company Shakespeare a few years ago.

Good aerials, but at 1.5m can easily get caught up on overhanging stuff on canals, but I guess you would mainly need it in the "up" position on rivers and more open waterways.

 

The 6dBi gain is good on boats that don't roll much, as would be the case on inland waterways.

indeed

That's why the one at the top of the mast is effectively a 1/4 wave so when the boat rolls.............

 

On canals the antenna is flat on the roof, then as its on an arch with the arch down it can be vertical from the roof or when the arch is up vertical from that.

Win Win Win as far as I am concerned.

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A CB aerial will definitely NOT work. Do not try it, it could damage the radio.

 

I use an amateur radio 2-meter band aerial with about an inch and a half cut off the end. It definitely seems to work better than the fibre-glass marine aerials, and has the advantage of being totally flexible so it doesn't snap if you go under a low bridge; it incorporates a hinge so it can lie flat on the roof if you are just listening, which means it doesn't get caught up in the centre-line; and with a PL259 connector it fits to a range of mounts including a magnetic mount or (as in my case) a permanent SO239 on the roof.

 

So if you know any radio amateurs, see if one of them has an old 2m aerial lying around somewhere.

 

Allan,

 

I'm probably being dense, but what type of VHF whip is it based on. IIRC you can buy 1/4 wave 5/8 wave 7/8 wave etc ? I'm guessing you are using more than 1/4 wave, as I think you had more than that "above the wine glass", but wasn't sure if yours had some kind of centre load in it, from the picture.

 

How did you determine how much to lop off ? By calculation, or by practical experimentation ?

 

Does a SWR meter designed for 2 metres work well enough to know it's tuned ? If not, how would you ?

 

I ask, because if I search, I could probably find any of those antennnas, and maybe even a mag-mount to match! :lol:

Edited by alan_fincher
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Since you asked my opinion, we use a short steel whip with a mag-mount. Can't remember the make, but could look if you're interested.

Not the best performance aerial, but a compromise for bridges, overhanging branches etc.

 

On a salty boat, I would choose something entirely different.

 

Keep the coax as short as possible. Most of these type of aerials come with a few metres already connected/moulded.

 

Edited to add: be careful of making your own aerial - could be a good way of blowing the output PA stage of your radio - will cost you a lot more than the £30-40 it costs to buy an aerial.

Thanks to those who replied regarding cheap but goog vhf aerial. I looked on Ebay and found a 2/h 1 metre hinged whip for just over half the cost of similar new offerings. I am glad I had refrained from trying with the CB aerial or by stripping some coax and sellotaping to plastic conduit!

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Allan,

 

I'm probably being dense, but what type of VHF whip is it based on. IIRC you can buy 1/4 wave 5/8 wave 7/8 wave etc ? I'm guessing you are using more than 1/4 wave, as I think you had more than that "above the wine glass", but wasn't sure if yours had some kind of centre load in it, from the picture.

 

How did you determine how much to lop off ? By calculation, or by practical experimentation ?

 

Does a SWR meter designed for 2 metres work well enough to know it's tuned ? If not, how would you ?

 

I ask, because if I search, I could probably find any of those antennnas, and maybe even a mag-mount to match! :lol:

It's a 5/8 wave, so it has a small encapsulated loading coil at the base (about 1" diameter and 3" tall) - to which the PL259 is a rigid fixture. At the top of the coil is the hinged joint which allows the whip to lie flat (which seems to make very little difference to reception but sends the VSWR sky-high; transmitting into it at low power seems to work OK though).

 

There is a short length of steel whip, followed by a short joining sleeve with allen screws; it is that which possibly looks like a centre load in the picture. Its purpose is so that you can separate the aerial at that point if you need to cut it - which is handy - as the top end of the whip has a permanently-fixed round end to make it slightly less lethal. It also allows fine adjustment of length if necessary by sliding the rod in the sleeve, but I haven't found this to be necessary. All these features are relatively standard on amateur 5/8 2m whips.

 

I did a quick calculation, lopped off what I hoped was the right amount, and then tried it. Any SWR meter which works on 2m will work perfectly well on the marine band. The result I got was an SWR better than 1.2:1 across the whole band, and that's good enough for me!

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