Narrowboats and wide boats rediscovered at Harefield - the facts

[alan_fincher]

Its spread quite a bit over the last 15 years. Its deteriorated a lot in that time and i think has been partly burnt, which is no surprise, they even burnt the park benches soon after they went in! Has anyone measured the bottom?

 

Seems to have curved sides, with considerably curved knees, so I can't see it being a conventional narrow boat. I would have thought the internal construction that still survives must point to it being a wide boat?

[S.J.Brooks]

It occurred to me that the pit with the boats in might be on the route of a road access point for construction of the viaduct so it could be in danger of being filled in to make a road. Apparently there will be a concrete casting plant on the site as well due to the size of the works.

 

As I understand it its not if it happens but when..

 

I can't remember the area well enough to work it out but I think there was an old quarry roadway coming down towards the pit - a road I imagine may be reopened by HS2.

The road is still there and used by fishermen to access the lakes, hs2 were going to use it but i think that have changed or was limited, not that i would believe them. They would have to widen it alot to affect the buried boats. Saying that i wouldnt trust them once they have the go ahead they will do anything they want. They might use the end road of the marina too, but they say they wont.

I always say IF it happens as this is the only hope i have left for the area i have lived in all my life.

[S.J.Brooks]

I can see a forced excovation im sure a word in a papers ear if it is an area to be filled and the boats not removed or exivated or left might be in the intrest at least just to stur up more hs2 distruction votes if you see what i mean

They wont fill the lake, but if the road was widened it could affect buried boats. Stir up as much as you can, its gone through to the house of lords now, but the govt could still scrap it

[furnessvale]

The road is still there and used by fishermen to access the lakes, hs2 were going to use it but i think that have changed or was limited, not that i would believe them. They would have to widen it alot to affect the buried boats. Saying that i wouldnt trust them once they have the go ahead they will do anything they want. They might use the end road of the marina too, but they say they wont.

I always say IF it happens as this is the only hope i have left for the area i have lived in all my life.

If HS2 is not built, you can be certain a new motorway will be needed to carry all the extra passengers and freight building up during the next 20-30 years.

 

I trust this would be more to your liking, or will it be the ever present hope that such a new road will take a different line from the railway?

 

George ex nb Alton retired

[magnetman]

Edited as off the topic.

 

Hopefully the impact of HS2 on the canal system can be minimised.

Edited October 22, 2016 by magnetman

[S.J.Brooks]

If HS2 is not built, you can be certain a new motorway will be needed to carry all the extra passengers and freight building up during the next 20-30 years.

 

I trust this would be more to your liking, or will it be the ever present hope that such a new road will take a different line from the railway?

 

George ex nb Alton retired

I think you are on the wrong forum. This pointless scheme is nothing to with freight or capacity.

[S.J.Brooks]

Does anyone know if the 2 lakes were originally joined? All the old maps i have seen show 2 separate lakes, but the rumour in the marina was that the land inbetween was filled in with rubble from London ww2 bombsites. There is is rubble all over this land, bits of brick wall, tiles, glass, old fireplaces and other stuff, plus lots of old watertanks. We found a knee of an old boat lying on the ground near the end. All the marina land has obviously been used for some kind of tipping, but was it ever dug out. Also why did they bulldoze through if the canal was already joined to Hawtreys via pit 2.

[Laurence Hogg]

Does anyone know if the 2 lakes were originally joined? All the old maps i have seen show 2 separate lakes, but the rumour in the marina was that the land inbetween was filled in with rubble from London ww2 bombsites. There is is rubble all over this land, bits of brick wall, tiles, glass, old fireplaces and other stuff, plus lots of old watertanks. We found a knee of an old boat lying on the ground near the end. All the marina land has obviously been used for some kind of tipping, but was it ever dug out. Also why did they bulldoze through if the canal was already joined to Hawtreys via pit 2.

 

See the various maps on this site: http://maps.nls.uk/geo/explore/#zoom=16&lat=51.5861&lon=-0.4868&layers=10&b=1

[S.J.Brooks]

Thanks, thats a really usefull site! So they built the 2 pits either side of the watercourse, which i think now runs through pit 1 and 2

[furnessvale]

I think you are on the wrong forum. This pointless scheme is nothing to with freight or capacity.

I'll take that as a yes to the motorway then!

 

George ex nb Alton retired

[S.J.Brooks]

I'll take that as a yes to the motorway then!

 

George ex nb Alton retired

no it is not, this scheme will ruin hundreds of peoples lives and its NOT only my area that i am concerned about. The oxford canal will be ruined and the chilterns among others. Come and see the places and people affected and look at both sides of the story, before you make these nasty unnecessary comments.

This forum is to do with sunk boats so i suggest you go elsewhere.

Apologies to others having to read this

[furnessvale]

no it is not, this scheme will ruin hundreds of peoples lives and its NOT only my area that i am concerned about. The oxford canal will be ruined and the chilterns among others. Come and see the places and people affected and look at both sides of the story, before you make these nasty unnecessary comments.

This forum is to do with sunk boats so i suggest you go elsewhere.

Apologies to others having to read this

I did not introduce HS2 into this thread but I will take every opportunity to dispel the nonsense spouted by the anti HS2 brigade whenever and wherever it appears.

 

As for going elsewhere, I am not about to be told where I can and cannot post by a newbie with 10 posts to their name.

 

However I do thank you for apologising to everyone for your intemperate outburst.

 

George ex nb Alton retired

[pete harrison]

This forum is to do with sunk boats so i suggest you go elsewhere.

And in my opinion this is exactly where these sunken boats should remain, buried in the Pit or decomposing on the bank. I am confident that there is little or no appetite for these boats, and certainly little or no funding for the restoration of the wooden wide boats which are probably the boats of the greatest historical value at this location.

 

I am confident that if recovered the iron hulled horse boats would be converted to counter sterned motors, something that has recently started happening again to unwanted butty's in the last couple of years. This would be detrimental to their historical value, and so as we know exactly what boats were put into Hawtrey's Pit, when they were put there and where they were put there then we should leave them as such - I even have the details of the financial arrangements of their abandonment. The scuttling of these boats is just as an important part of our waterways history as the boats themselves, and If progress means they end up being buried further or broken up by bulldozers then so be it. There are plenty of examples of these iron horse boats so their loss is / will be inconsequential.

 

I consider myself to be fortunate in not being 'romantic' about these boats, even though they have been a major part of my life for almost 50 years

[Jrtm]

They should not be destroyed by bulldozers (they would be lost forever even as a visual reminder this happened) as they are there kept as visual history of what happened near the end of major canal carrying

 

I have nothing against them being saved as long as there saved as they are e.g. any of the wooden boats rebuilt and any buttys kept as that.

 

If anything there history should be told more even a few signs up at the sight with what lay there or what happened.

[pete harrison]

They should not be destroyed by bulldozers (they would be lost forever even as a visual reminder this happened) as they are there kept as visual history of what happened near the end of major canal carrying

 

I have nothing against them being saved as long as there saved as they are e.g. any of the wooden boats rebuilt and any buttys kept as that.

 

If anything there history should be told more even a few signs up at the sight with what lay there or what happened.

The destruction by bulldozers is a reference to HS2 and their possible interest in the site. This is probably the least desirable outcome for these boats but it is a possibility along with them being buried deeper or even left alone. Both the identity and the history of each and every boat in Hawtreys Pit is known. The location of the majority of boats is known, and they were extensively photographed in their sunken state in 1961. The history of the lead up to these boats fates was documented by 'British Waterways' in the run up to the scuttlings - there are no secrets and no storyboards or signs required as this is no museum and the visual history is already there for anybody who is bothered enough to do a little research.

 

The majority of boats in Hawtreys Pit were wooden, and there is no way on earth that one of these will be restored as the cost of recovery and restoration could never be recouped and there is just not enough interest in the boats that matter - the wide beam horse boats - for a charitable organisation.

 

The current narrow boat market is demonstrating the lack of desire for butty's, and their owners know this - hence MOUNTBATTEN and JELLICOE currently being for sale as a pair (the owner told me he would not be able to sell JELLICOE without the attraction of MOUNTBATTEN).

 

Hawtreys Pit is just a hole in the ground with a few old boats in it, and is far from unique. Talk is cheap, and sentimental or romantic opinion is cheaper. I am prepared to show some respect to the handful of 'enthusiasts' who have attempted to do something about these boats, but as a researcher of 'historic' boats I would rather they left them alone

[IanM]

This forum is to do with sunk boats so i suggest you go elsewhere.

I do like it when new users tell established members what they can and cannot discuss on the forums.

 

Anyway, back to buried boats.

[magnetman]

I feel I should apologise for bringing HS2 into this thread. Sorry about that.

(I know S J Brooks may be a new member but I also know she is a long term boater and could have a valuable input to the forum)

[furnessvale]

I feel I should apologise for bringing HS2 into this thread. Sorry about that.

(I know S J Brooks may be a new member but I also know she is a long term boater and could have a valuable input to the forum)

Welcome to the forum, SJ Brooks.

 

So long as we keep away from HS2, I'm sure we will both enjoy each others contributions.

 

George ex nb Alton retired

[Markinaboat]

Im normally loitering somewhere near the slipway if you want me to show you where that boat is

I've noticed you loitering!

Edited October 24, 2016 by Markinaboat

[Markinaboat]

If HS2 is not built, you can be certain a new motorway will be needed to carry all the extra passengers and freight building up during the next 20-30 years.

 

I trust this would be more to your liking, or will it be the ever present hope that such a new road will take a different line from the railway?

 

George ex nb Alton retired

Perhaps spend a fraction of what the final cost will be on vastly improving tge existing rail network including double/decker trains. Bridges can be ramped and raised and/or build line extendions to bypass these. The HS2 project is an absolute joke fuelled by profit makers and idiots in government. There

[furnessvale]

Perhaps spend a fraction of what the final cost will be on vastly improving tge existing rail network including double/decker trains. Bridges can be ramped and raised and/or build line extendions to bypass these. The HS2 project is an absolute joke fuelled by profit makers and idiots in government. There

Best of luck if you think a fraction of the cost of HS2 will do all that!

 

George ex nb Alton retired

[Markinaboat]

Perhaps spend a fraction of what the final cost will be on vastly improving tge existing rail network including double/decker trains. Bridges can be ramped and raised and/or build line extendions to bypass these. The HS2 project is an absolute joke fuelled by profit makers and idiots in government. There

Tried to edit but couldn't.

 

Apologies for continuing the HS2 part. Was catching up over the past couple of days and 'quoted' to an earlier post before I had reached more recent posts.

 

I personally feel Hawtreys would make an excellent (almost!) living museum.

[Markinaboat]

Best of luck if you think a fraction of the cost of HS2 will do all that!

 

George ex nb Alton retired

George,

 

estimated final costs of HS2 £80bn (source http://www.publications.parliament.uk/pa/ld201415/ldselect/ldeconaf/134/134.pdfpara 22/21)

estimated cost of Heathrow expansion £19bn

 

I read a report a while ago stating that "for the same cost or less of HS2, both the east and west coast lines could be revamped to provide the same or better benefits than HS2 nationwide AND build a third runway.

[furnessvale]

George,

 

estimated final costs of HS2 £80bn (source http://www.publications.parliament.uk/pa/ld201415/ldselect/ldeconaf/134/134.pdfpara 22/21)

estimated cost of Heathrow expansion £19bn

 

I read a report a while ago stating that "for the same cost or less of HS2, both the east and west coast lines could be revamped to provide the same or better benefits than HS2 nationwide AND build a third runway.

Once again only half a story. The £80bn includes a massive £30bn to allow for possible cost inflation, the Heathrow figure does not.

 

The HS2 figure includes the cost of all the trains that will run on that new line and fan out across the North on all the other main lines.

 

Perhaps if you include the cost of all the aircraft that will use the new runway you will reach a more realistic figure.

 

Revamping existing lines never works out as planned. There is massive disruption while the work takes place. The last revamp of the West Coast Main Line cost £10bn, caused disruption for years and even now it needs revisiting because of cutting corners.

 

George ex nb Alton retired

 

ps Of course, one of the reasons HS2 has a high price tag is the vast amount of money being spent on tunnels etc through the Chilterns and elsewhere to appease objectors. When full account has been taken of Heathrow objectors expect that price to rise considerably as well.

Edited October 25, 2016 by furnessvale

[Derek R.]

Estimates were also given on costs of building canals and their tunneling, and time taken to completion. How many were within budget? And how many got completed on time?

 

HS2. I won't be using it, so there's one reason for not building. Motorway. That I could use, but probably won't. Most goods today travel by road. Most properties are serviced by road vehicles. I get deliveries made by road. So - yeah - lets build a high speed railway. Rail freight gets held up by passenger trains, always has. Then once at a freight terminal it needs to be trans-shipped onto - guess what?