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Eberspacher M10 Vs Hurricane


choogh

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It's not daft, a 10 doesn't work as hard and goes to idle mode more often and therefore chokes up more. The 5 will have to work in full mode more so doesn't choke up as often..

My Eber Hydronic 10 never ran for more than about 600 hours before dying, It was twice repaired under guarantee, then replaced with a Hydronic 5 by Eberspacher after they decided the 10 was too big and shutting down too often. The 5 lasted the same ammount of time and was replaced with another 5 which also died in about the same number of hours. It was due to the inability to run on red diesel for any longer without much reduced service hours. It has been inoperative for a couple of years. I thought about a seperate kerosene tank. but really can't be bothered with the aggro.

 

Roger

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I have an Ebby 10 on my 70 footer and on the odd times it worked it was brilliant and a great source of good heat. But over four years I have spent a fortune having it fixed, over and over. I think I could have bought two new systems with what it has cost. Now it is sitting there unused, the back end of the boat is not used in this cold weather and I am very disheartened with the heater. I have been told a number of things, the last of which was that the 10 was too big for the boat (twas in it when I bought it) and that a 5 would be fine. I think maybe the 10 could be taken out and put on ebay to make few bob and a 5 put in... I wish I were a more technical minded person and I would know whether this is a daft idea or not. Engineers who have tried to sort this heater out have had it going beautifully out of the boat and on the bench but now it just sounds like it will start up then dies a death. I would love to have a warm bathroom again. Will it be spring soon?????

 

Sorry you are having so many problems, this is the one thing i'm really keen to avoid hence spending so much time looking into it.

 

I'm the least qualified person to try and help but from what I have learned up to yet and what Robbo mentioned about going into idle mode and choking up makes a lot of sense and made me wonder if, on the occasions the unit has been out and running as it should on the bench, the unit has been cleaned down by the engineer/s prior to running it?

 

If so would it be helpful to try to clean the unit as frequently as possible (albeit a bit of a bind) just to see if this does cure your problem?

 

I'm probabley being way too simplistic here but it was just a thought if it helps... other things we are looking at are having a dedicated fuel tank purely for the heating unit so that we can use cleaner, lower sulphur fuel if we do experience problems but appreciate that would be a difficult option in an existing boat, and as mentioned earleir the use of additives.

 

Either way good luck, hope you get things sorted out and yes spring can't be too far off now... hang in there!

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CJR... do you self service your Hurricane and is it relatively straight forward?

 

Appreciate any info, cheers.

 

 

Not done a service as such yet, but had the front off and hoovered out the burner chamber. There did not seem to be a need to do anything else as it was clean.

I rang Calcut to see if there was a 'service kit' but they said that there is no such thing - you just replace anything that breaks, everything else can be cleaned.

We have the little video that Robbo has kindly given a link to, and have put it on the ipod in case we need to dismmantle the heater and watch the video while doing it!

The heater has been on nearly constantly since we bought the boat 18 months ago (70' x 10' widebeam) and have had no problems at all apart from the voltage niggle when cruising.

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Not done a service as such yet, but had the front off and hoovered out the burner chamber. There did not seem to be a need to do anything else as it was clean.

I rang Calcut to see if there was a 'service kit' but they said that there is no such thing - you just replace anything that breaks, everything else can be cleaned.

We have the little video that Robbo has kindly given a link to, and have put it on the ipod in case we need to dismmantle the heater and watch the video while doing it!

The heater has been on nearly constantly since we bought the boat 18 months ago (70' x 10' widebeam) and have had no problems at all apart from the voltage niggle when cruising.

 

Thanks CJR... it sounds better all the time!

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I'm the least qualified person to try and help but from what I have learned up to yet and what Robbo mentioned about going into idle mode and choking up makes a lot of sense and made me wonder if, on the occasions the unit has been out and running as it should on the bench, the unit has been cleaned down by the engineer/s prior to running it?

 

I'm not qualified either, but I've done quite a bit of research and the main complaints of the pre-heater type of heaters failing is mainly due to; poor fuel and on/off cycling of the system. The Mikuni I have I've had loads of issues with, I'm replacing with a Hurricane and it's good to see good reports regarding it.

Edited by Robbo
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I'm not qualified either, but I've done quite a bit of research and the main complaints of the pre-heater type of heaters failing is mainly due to; poor fuel and on/off cycling of the system. The Mikuni I have I've had loads of issues with, I'm replacing with a Hurricane and it's good to see good reports regarding it.

 

 

I should probably mention here again, that we are currently running the Hurricane on red diesel bought from a road garage, and also have used green deisel (southern irish version) so these have been mixed in the tank. I believe these have different specs but not too sure, either way, we've never had any problems at all with the fuel.

It was because we knew that we would have to get diesel from varied sources that we decided to pay the extra for the Hurricane - for peace of mind. Also, it is a lot easier in the UK to get parts etc for heaters (or any chandlery for that matter!), but as it is more difficult here that was another reason for us to go for the less-hassle option.

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We have had our Hurricane for nearly 2 years now. It has been on constantly without any problems apart from sensitivity to voltage drop. It does not like anything below 12v so batteries have to be kept topped up when cruising so that it will kick in in the morning.

We run it on green (irish equiv.) and red diesel.

It is sensitive to any faults i.e. air locks and voltage, but it is otherwise 100% reliable in our experience.

When on shore power it kicks in first time every time and we now have it on a room stat dual timer, which also gives us hot water when we need it.

Others have commented to us how quiet the Hurricane is compared to other heaters - not had any other kind so we would have to take their word for it!

 

In my opinion 2 years isn't long enough to know how reliable a heater is. My eberspacher ran well and was reliable for 4 years until it packed up.

 

I don't think the Hurricane has been around long enough for enough user reviews to come through yet - time will tell.

Edited by blackrose
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I was chatting to the eberspacher guy at the excel boat show, he eventually promised to send me his engineers report covering the apparant unreliability of eber units in boats, if your having hassel with one it may be a good idea to ask for a copy from them.

 

Paul

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In my opinion 2 years isn't long enough to know how reliable a heater is. My eberspacher ran well and was reliable for 4 years until it packed up.

 

I don't think the Hurricane has been around long enough for enough user reviews to come through yet - time will tell.

 

 

Fair point, just indicating our own experience so far. :lol:

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Fair point, just indicating our own experience so far. :lol:

 

Good luck with it. Chances are that it will be reliable because I think in part it was developed and marketed in response to the unreliability of other brands.

 

If Hurricane owners are still reporting good reliability in another couple of years I may buy one myself.

Edited by blackrose
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Has anyone else seen the report eberspacher put out regarding their use in boats?

 

It is very interesting read. It states that they have no issues running on red diesel as long as there are no other issues with the heaters installation. The problem is that most/alot/some are badly or incorrectly installed. This combined with red diesel can cause them alot of problems.

 

I had one for four years and it never missed a beat - it was far from new when I had it too. I ran it on all sorts of different fuel. Red diesel, white diesel, heating oil, kerosine. It was never a problem and did me great service - that was liveaboard too.

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Has anyone else seen the report eberspacher put out regarding their use in boats?

 

It is very interesting read. It states that they have no issues running on red diesel as long as there are no other issues with the heaters installation. The problem is that most/alot/some are badly or incorrectly installed. This combined with red diesel can cause them alot of problems.

 

I had one for four years and it never missed a beat - it was far from new when I had it too. I ran it on all sorts of different fuel. Red diesel, white diesel, heating oil, kerosine. It was never a problem and did me great service - that was liveaboard too.

 

 

I'm sure it's not as straight forward as it sounds but it would be useful if manufacturers provided a list of "approved" installers for their products.

 

I appreciate the complexity of them actually approving installers but it would protect their brand and close a loophole if someone were to have one incorrectly installed and consequently fail... it seems a shame that some units are getting bad press if it is nothing more than incorrect installation or is this the loophole that the manufacturers want to use?

 

I would certainly reconsider if there was some sort of approved installation scheme where by you were protected against the failure of a unit from installation to actual use so there must be a market out there if someone were to get their act together and provide a guarantee that covers the bigger picture.

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The problem for eberspaceher is that the canal market is such a tiny tiny part of their market yet contributes a major amount of their technical problems.

 

They have comparatively very few issues with their units in other installations.

 

Eberspacher did alot of R&D on boats that they had had repeaed complaints from about faulty units. The found that once they sent their engineers out to sort the system the heater was working on - the units (usually) worked with no problems at all.

 

They can provide a huge amount of info on the installation of their units - which is really not rocket science - but most people just don't read and refer to it.

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I was chatting to the eberspacher guy at the excel boat show, he eventually promised to send me his engineers report covering the apparant unreliability of eber units in boats, if your having hassel with one it may be a good idea to ask for a copy from them.

 

Paul

You don't need the report, it will tell you that 90% of the faults are down to the poor quality of fuel available on the inland waterways, due to uncrupulous outlets emptying their waste oil into it, lack of tank cleaning and high water content due to low turnover, condensation and poor maintenance etc (Who are they then?) The other 10% will be down to poor electrical connections and incorrect installation.

 

Of course the report could say that their heaters have had a long and successful history in the commercial vehicle industry running on their recommended spec for white diesel. It could also tell you that the heater was adopted by the marine industry due to its small size, efficiency and reputation, and that unfortunately owing t0 the sulphur content of standard red diesel in the UK market being approximately 40 times higher than for the specified fuel, that has led to faster carbon build up, other deposits and premature failure. They may also inform you that these types of heaters are not reccommended for long running liveaboard heating systems, or that they need a full service every few hundred hours. I wouldn't bank on it though.

 

None of the people that I know of including myself with terminal failures in their Eber/Webby/Mikuni systems, have had fuel quality issues (other than being standard red diesel) or electrical problems. I wouldn't listen to anything that the manufacturers or their reps tell you, speak to long term users.

 

Roger

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Heater manufacturers referring to red diesel is misleading as it infers that the fuel on sale at marine outlets is red diesel, so I think we need to differentiate between red diesel and gasoil. As I see it red diesel is white road diesel with dye added, gasoil is higher sulphur lower cetane 35 sec heating oil. Does everyone agree? (bit of a tall order)

Edited by nb Innisfree
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Heater manufacturers referring to red diesel is misleading as it infers that the fuel on sale at marine outlets is red diesel, so I think we need to differentiate between red diesel and gasoil. As I see it red diesel is white road diesel with dye added, gasoil is higher sulphur lower cetane 35 sec heating oil. Does everyone agree? (bit of a tall order)

That's not actually how I have ever chosen to look at it.....

 

Surely 'diesel' and 'gas oil' are variants of the same thing, and either name has come to be supplied in recent years with a range of different specifications. (The French for example, refer to road diesel as Gazole, but it is clearly the same product as road 'diesel' we might buy).

 

The confusion is that the stuff can come in high or (ultra) low sulphur versions, and it seems that the ULS stuff usually has a higher cetane rating, but it is possible to be supplied with either as "dyed gas oil", which is available in ultra low sulphur versions - probably just that that is not what you currently get if buying from canal-side outlets or fuel boats.

 

Whilst it may seem misleading to call the canal-side product "red diesel", it is still diesel - it just isn't "ultra low sulphur" diesel, and hence not the same less polluting product as is now mandatory for road use.

 

It's all about words, I guess, but I don't think the words are actually wrong - just confusing!

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That's not actually how I have ever chosen to look at it.....

 

Surely 'diesel' and 'gas oil' are variants of the same thing, and either name has come to be supplied in recent years with a range of different specifications. (The French for example, refer to road diesel as Gazole, but it is clearly the same product as road 'diesel' we might buy).

 

The confusion is that the stuff can come in high or (ultra) low sulphur versions, and it seems that the ULS stuff usually has a higher cetane rating, but it is possible to be supplied with either as "dyed gas oil", which is available in ultra low sulphur versions - probably just that that is not what you currently get if buying from canal-side outlets or fuel boats.

 

Whilst it may seem misleading to call the canal-side product "red diesel", it is still diesel - it just isn't "ultra low sulphur" diesel, and hence not the same less polluting product as is now mandatory for road use.

 

It's all about words, I guess, but I don't think the words are actually wrong - just confusing!

 

I expect it will all be academic when high sulphur is phased out

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I HAVE BEEN RUNNING A HURRICANE APPROX THREE AND A HALF YEARS. IT HAS GOT JUST OVER 4500 HRS ON THE CLOCK WITH NO PROBLEMS AT ALL. A QUICK VACUM OUT EVERY 1000 HRS. IT HAS RUN ON ANY DIESEL AVAILABLE WITH NO PROBLEMS.

 

TOM :lol:

 

Ok Tom, I can see you're excited but there's no need to SHOUT!

 

I wonder what the expected service life of a Hurricane is? For some of these diesel heaters it's not all that long and that makes them very expensive in terms of £/hour even without the cost of fuel.

 

Eberspacer told me the DW10 had an expected service life of only about 5000 hours, which depending on how much you paid to buy and install it, means it could costs as much as 50p/hour just to have the thing on your boat - that's not including any running costs!

Edited by blackrose
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Heater manufacturers referring to red diesel is misleading as it infers that the fuel on sale at marine outlets is red diesel, so I think we need to differentiate between red diesel and gasoil. As I see it red diesel is white road diesel with dye added, gasoil is higher sulphur lower cetane 35 sec heating oil. Does everyone agree? (bit of a tall order)

 

This red diesel issue is like an endless loop, where the same arguments are constantly coming round over and over again, despite the facts. When I had my major well documented problem withe my Eberspacher Hydronic 10 and 5, and Paul Sylvan had a virtually identical problem with his Webasto Thermotop C, we researched red diesel very carefully with the oil companies that supply to the inland waterways outlets. Texaco in particular sent their technical spec sheets as did other companies and I personally discussed the issues with various technical departments. Our fuel was also tested for quality and consistency by the heater manufacturers engineers and independent testers.

 

Red diesel is supplied to the outlets as red diesel. It is the same quality that road diesel was up until the 1980s. Derv or road diesel has steadily been improved over the last 20 odd years, with the sulphur content in particular being lowered to around 1/40th of the earlier fuel. There are also additives to improve lubrication and combustion and the cetane rating is higher than the earlier fuels. Red diesel has remained unchanged during that time due to the less sophisticated requirements of most marine and agricultural users.

 

Eberspacher, Mikuni, Webasto etc all give the specification for fuel requirements in their manuals for their heaters, and that specification for minimum fuel quality is derve/forecourt/white diesel or whatever you want to call it. Red diesel has NEVER met the minimum specified quality for the heaters! (All of this information is available from the oil producers and heater manufacturers for those who want the full technical specs.)

 

Unfortunately this is never pointed out to purchasers and fitters alike so most people have been totally unaware of it. Blackrose has said that he was told a service interval of 5000 hours for the Hydronic 10, whereas I was told by Eberspacher 2000 hours, which was also printed in my paperwork. That service interval assumes that the unit is run on fuel which meets the minimum specification requirements. The manufactureres also advise that the heaters should not be used as continuous domestic heating boilers on liveaboard boats and that service intervals should be greatly reduced for long running requirements. The interval for those attempting to use them as 24/7 units would seem to be 600-700 hours, from user experiences.

 

It is perfectly feasible to run these heaters on fuel of the correct specification if sources are practical, and some people report good results from burning Kerosene. There are also those who maintain that they have run their units for thousands of hours with no problems, although they are frequently running air blown units, not the water circulating types. There are also many who claim to have had years of trouble free use, when in fact the units are low hours because of occasional leisure use only. I have an Eberspacher air unit on another boat which has been trouble free for over 6 years, but then it is infrequently used!. Personally, I have yet to meet any owner that uses the water circulating pressurised boiler system as a sole heating source in a 24/7 liveaboard system that has not had problems.

 

Lets also not forget that Paul Sylvan took Webasto to court and won the case on the grounds that the unit was unfit for purpose. I bet you won't get told that on a stand at a boat show.

 

Roger

Edited by Roger Gunkel
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Heater manufacturers referring to red diesel is misleading as it infers that the fuel on sale at marine outlets is red diesel, so I think we need to differentiate between red diesel and gasoil. As I see it red diesel is white road diesel with dye added, gasoil is higher sulphur lower cetane 35 sec heating oil. Does everyone agree? (bit of a tall order)

 

More or less.

 

In rural areas there are garages with red diesel pumps for agricultural vehicles. I very much doubt they would be selling heating oil from these pumps, rather than dyed road diesel.

 

But I expect some canalside suppliers are selling heating oil instead as it's slightly cheaper to buy in.

 

Maybe the best option for current Webasto/Eberspacher/Mikuni owners would be to find a supplier of the right type of fuel and stick with them.

 

cheers,

Pete.

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This red diesel issue is like an endless loop, where the same arguments are constantly coming round over and over again, despite the facts. When I had my major well documented problem withe my Eberspacher Hydronic 10 and 5, and Paul Sylvan had a virtually identical problem with his Webasto Thermotop C, we researched red diesel very carefully with the oil companies that supply to the inland waterways outlets. Texaco in particular sent their technical spec sheets as did other companies and I personally discussed the issues with various technical departments. Our fuel was also tested for quality and consistency by the heater manufacturers engineers and independent testers.

 

Red diesel is supplied to the outlets as red diesel. It is the same quality that road diesel was up until the 1980s. Derv or road diesel has steadily been improved over the last 20 odd years, with the sulphur content in particular being lowered to around 1/40th of the earlier fuel. There are also additives to improve lubrication and combustion and the cetane rating is higher than the earlier fuels. Red diesel has remained unchanged during that time due to the less sophisticated requirements of most marine and agricultural users.

 

Eberspacher, Mikuni, Webasto etc all give the specification for fuel requirements in their manuals for their heaters, and that specification for minimum fuel quality is derve/forecourt/white diesel or whatever you want to call it. Red diesel has NEVER met the minimum specified quality for the heaters! (All of this information is available from the oil producers and heater manufacturers for those who want the full technical specs.)

 

Unfortunately this is never pointed out to purchasers and fitters alike so most people have been totally unaware of it. Blackrose has said that he was told a service interval of 5000 hours for the Hydronic 10, whereas I was told by Eberspacher 2000 hours, which was also printed in my paperwork. That service interval assumes that the unit is run on fuel which meets the minimum specification requirements. The manufactureres also advise that the heaters should not be used as continuous domestic heating boilers on liveaboard boats and that service intervals should be greatly reduced for long running requirements. The interval for those attempting to use them as 24/7 units would seem to be 600-700 hours, from user experiences.

 

It is perfectly feasible to run these heaters on fuel of the correct specification if sources are practical, and some people report good results from burning Kerosene. There are also those who maintain that they have run their units for thousands of hours with no problems, although they are frequently running air blown units, not the water circulating types. There are also many who claim to have had years of trouble free use, when in fact the units are low hours because of occasional leisure use only. I have an Eberspacher air unit on another boat which has been trouble free for over 6 years, but then it is infrequently used!. Personally, I have yet to meet any owner that uses the water circulating pressurised boiler system as a sole heating source in a 24/7 liveaboard system that has not had problems.

 

Lets also not forget that Paul Sylvan took Webasto to court and won the case on the grounds that the unit was unfit for purpose. I bet you won't get told that on a stand at a boat show.

 

Roger

 

Thanks Roger.

 

So...

 

What appears to be happening is that many of these units are being used in the wrong application when they are not designed for liveaboard/high usage purposes and often run on fuel below the grade that they are designed to be run on which would explain a lot when you factor in other things such as their reported sensitivity to voltage drop... it all sounds like a recipe for disaster to the uninformed.

 

Just how clear the manufacturers make these points in advance is unknown to me but it does seem a contradiction to introduce them into a market place that is predominantly supplied by "red" diesel.

 

We're fortunate in that we are still at the stage where we can design in a dedicated tank for the heating fuel only and most likely will do at the expense of maybe having to use forecourt diesel and fill up periodically via jerry cans at the expense of forgoing the tax exemption for heating oil but I would rather be inconvenienced than cold despite the assurance that our proposed system will be fine running on red... after everything i've read so far it's a case of seeing is believing for me.

 

Appreciate such an informative post, thank you.

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It seems to me the main prob is with starting up on gasoil, when it has reached the combustion and flame detected stage all seems well. To this end I am going to try starting our Mikuni MX60 on white diesel and/or kerosene and if it proves successful I think will fit an extra fuel pump supplied by white diesel or kerosene teed into the fuel line immediately before the heater, this will operate via a glow plug actuated relay which will revert to main pump when combustion is achieved and glow plug switches off. As it will only use white diesel for start up 5lt should last several months or more therefore a small secondary tank will suffice.

 

Does this sound feasible, has anyone had experience with this?

Edited by nb Innisfree
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I can only comment of eberspachers and not the other makes but:-

 

You don't need the report, it will tell you that 90% of the faults are down to the poor quality of fuel available on the inland waterways, due to uncrupulous outlets emptying their waste oil into it, lack of tank cleaning and high water content due to low turnover, condensation and poor maintenance etc (Who are they then?) The other 10% will be down to poor electrical connections and incorrect installation.

 

Clearly you have not read the report as that is not what it says at all. Eberspachers will run just fine on red diesel (gasoil) as long as they are installed correctly. The vast majority of problems are with installation and NOT fuel

 

Of course the report could say that their heaters have had a long and successful history in the commercial vehicle industry running on their recommended spec for white diesel. It could also tell you that the heater was adopted by the marine industry due to its small size, efficiency and reputation, and that unfortunately owing t0 the sulphur content of standard red diesel in the UK market being approximately 40 times higher than for the specified fuel, that has led to faster carbon build up, other deposits and premature failure. They may also inform you that these types of heaters are not reccommended for long running liveaboard heating systems, or that they need a full service every few hundred hours. I wouldn't bank on it though.

 

You seem to be assuming that there is only one type of red diesel, there is not. You can get red diesel to the same spec as road diesel i.e. BS EN 590 rated and gasoil which is not to the same spec.

 

None of the people that I know of including myself with terminal failures in their Eber/Webby/Mikuni systems, have had fuel quality issues (other than being standard red diesel) or electrical problems. I wouldn't listen to anything that the manufacturers or their reps tell you, speak to long term users.

 

You just stated that 90% of the problems are as a result of fuel and now you state that non of the people you know had fuel issues. So you had a bad installation?

 

Roger

 

 

Eberspacher, Mikuni, Webasto etc all give the specification for fuel requirements in their manuals for their heaters, and that specification for minimum fuel quality is derve/forecourt/white diesel or whatever you want to call it. Red diesel has NEVER met the minimum specified quality for the heaters! (All of this information is available from the oil producers and heater manufacturers for those who want the full technical specs.)

 

As stated above BS EN 590 red diesel meets the specs perfectly

 

Roger

 

BTW way if you can - run your heater on Kerosine. It will perform by far the best.

 

From the eberspacher website. It does say that the heaters are designed for BS EN 590 spec fuel but states that if Gasoil is used then it may affect the service interval.

 

 

 

Q7: Will my Eberspacher heater run on red diesel and how often will it need servicing?

 

Answer:

"Our heater products are designed to run on fuel to specification BS EN 590 as stated in the Technical book that accompanies all heaters."

 

It is commonly thought that red diesel is road diesel with a red dye in it. Unfortunately, this is not always the case. There are two types of red diesel available, one is Gas Oil with red dye, and the other is Low Sulphur Gas Oil (City Gas Oil) with a red dye. The latter meets BS EN 590 and has the same specification as road diesel.

 

We have contacted a couple of Fuel Suppliers to ascertain "what exactly is it in the fuel that makes it different".

 

The main differences between "Gas Oil (non BS EN 590)" and Low Sulphur Gas Oil (to BS EN 590), is the former has a lower 'Cetane rating' 46 against 52, higher sulphur %Wt 0.2 against 0.005, higher Flash point 82 against 67 and Carbon residue, on 10% distillation residue, %Wt .12 against <0.001.

 

The fuel commonly found on the canal system is unfortunately "Gas Oil". The other "Red diesel" available is called "City Gas Oil" (ultra low sulphur gas oil) (Linton Fuel Oil Ltd Stock code 103). This meets BS EN 590 and apparently costs the marina only 1.5 pence more per litre. Our contact was quoted saying "why anyone chooses to buy normal gas oil, I don't know!" another supplier was challenged to why it was not always offered he said "surprisingly no one asks for it but it is readily available."

 

We have found boat owners using the better quality fuel to have a longer period between servicing, therefore what is needed are people like you demanding this far superior fuel. I am sure you would be happy to pay a few pence more for better fuel.

 

In answer to your servicing questions our heaters have a service interval of approximately 2000 hrs, this can be adversely affected by the use of Gas Oil (non BS EN 590), bacterial or water contamination. We have many customers who have taken onboard the advice we have given in the past regarding additives and now have far longer service intervals. Additives such as 'Fultron' are available from all good chandlers and stockists.

 

http://www.eberspacher.com/support-and-downloads/faq.html

Edited by Speedwheel
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