Diesel Waxing

[MarkAdrian]

Hi Folks. A general query, not having a problem at the mo. But I was wondering at what temperature Red Diesel starts to wax? and whether it returns to its normal viscosity as temperatures rise. An old seasoned boater told me to add some petrol to the diesel to stop it waxing in the first place. I would be reluctant to do this with a modern diesel engine. But guess from his conversation is was common practice years ago?

Edited January 6, 2010 by MarkAdrian

[churchward]

Hi Folks. A general query, not having a problem at the mo. But I was wondering at what temperature Red Diesel starts to wax? and whether it returns to its normal viscosity as temperatures rise. An old seasoned boater told me to add some petrol to the diesel to stop it waxing in the first place. I would be reluctant to do this with a modern diesel engine. But guess from his conversation is was common practice years ago?

In my experience from years ago diesel once waxed doesn't then re emulsify the solids need to be removed as I recall.

 

White diesel won't wax in our climate it has additives in that protect it. I am not sure if gas oil/red diesel has the same additives.

 

I started up the engine on our boat over the new year and all was fine no evidence of waxing.

 

Folk used to add petrol to prevent waxing but only very small amounts I can't remember the max percentage recommended. Then as now it would be better to buy a specific diesel anti-waxing additive rather than add petrol. Petrol raises the combustion rate of the fuel to much and you can get "knock" which will damage the engine as the fuel starts to ignite too early in the cycle.

[n.b.Goldie]

Hi Folks. A general query, not having a problem at the mo. But I was wondering at what temperature Red Diesel starts to wax? and whether it returns to its normal viscosity as temperatures rise. An old seasoned boater told me to add some petrol to the diesel to stop it waxing in the first place. I would be reluctant to do this with a modern diesel engine. But guess from his conversation is was common practice years ago?

A couple of winters ago I had trouble with my Lockgate diesel stove due to the (red diesel) fuel waxing in cold weather.

 

I spoke the the people who sell Fuel Set diesel treatment : http://liquideng.co.uk/ who said that waxing in cold weather is due to microscopic particles of water in the fuel solidifying and that removing the water prevents the waxing. So I bought some and tried it. It worked! The stove then behaved itself.

 

It might have been my imagination but I am sure the engine ran smoother as well.

 

I would be very reluctant to add petrol to the diesel fuel especially with a modern engine. As the temperature rises the waxing will disappear and the fuel returns to 'normal' but in my view prevention is best so I still use Fuel Set.

 

All the best

Ditchdabbler

[churchward]

A couple of winters ago I had trouble with my Lockgate diesel stove due to the (red diesel) fuel waxing in cold weather.

 

I spoke the the people who sell Fuel Set diesel treatment : http://liquideng.co.uk/ who said that waxing in cold weather is due to microscopic particles of water in the fuel solidifying and that removing the water prevents the waxing. So I bought some and tried it. It worked! The stove then behaved itself.

 

It might have been my imagination but I am sure the engine ran smoother as well.

 

I would be very reluctant to add petrol to the diesel fuel especially with a modern engine. As the temperature rises the waxing will disappear and the fuel returns to 'normal' but in my view prevention is best so I still use Fuel Set.

 

All the best

Ditchdabbler

The bit highlighted isn't correct although maybe can happen too. Waxing IS the solidifying/crystalising of wax in the fuel that is normally (and there on purpose) liquid.

 

See this BP PDF

 

http://www.bp.com/liveassets/bp_internet/r...el_problems.pdf

[n.b.Goldie]

The bit highlighted isn't correct although maybe can happen too. Waxing IS the solidifying/crystalising of wax in the fuel that is normally (and there on purpose) liquid.

 

See this BP PDF

 

http://www.bp.com/liveassets/bp_internet/r...el_problems.pdf

Perhaps I mis-understood what I was being told, on reading your pdf and re-reading the Fuel Set info it would appear that the product deals with emulsified fuel, still did the job for me though.

 

Ditchdabbler

[churchward]

Perhaps I mis-understood what I was being told, on reading your pdf and re-reading the Fuel Set info it would appear that the product deals with emulsified fuel, still did the job for me though.

 

Ditchdabbler

I expect the fuelset would do the job well enough. I use the same in my fuel.

[bag 'o' bones]

A couple of winters ago I had trouble with my Lockgate diesel stove due to the (red diesel) fuel waxing in cold weather.

 

I spoke the the people who sell Fuel Set diesel treatment : http://liquideng.co.uk/ who said that waxing in cold weather is due to microscopic particles of water in the fuel solidifying and that removing the water prevents the waxing. So I bought some and tried it. It worked! The stove then behaved itself.

 

It might have been my imagination but I am sure the engine ran smoother as well.

 

I would be very reluctant to add petrol to the diesel fuel especially with a modern engine. As the temperature rises the waxing will disappear and the fuel returns to 'normal' but in my view prevention is best so I still use Fuel Set.

 

All the best

Ditchdabbler

Modern engines don't really suffer if you inadvertantly add a bit of petrol. I mistakenly filled by diesel LDV van with petrol a while back probably about a 1/4 tank before I realised. Filled up with diesel after that after phoning my Dad who did the same thing a few years earlier. No diffrence from what I can tell although probably not a good idea to run it like that all of the time.

 

Seem to recall parrafin can be added to diesel to prevent icing up?

[nb Innisfree]

I think it used to be the case that up to 10% of paraffin or petrol could be legally added in the winter to help prevent waxing. When temp rises diesel returns to normal. I don't think adding small amounts of paraffin will do any harm. White diesel has anti waxing added in winter but if weather turned a lot colder than expected then it could still wax. A bit like antifreeze in engines really, depends on temp how much is added.

 

Edited to delete petrol. Paraffin only tho I still think a small amount of petrol will be ok IMO

Edited January 6, 2010 by nb Innisfree

[Biggles]

As a producer of Biodiesel I can confirm that waxing of any oil will occur sooner or later as the temperature falls. In BD and in diesel years ago 5-10% petrol was added to stop waxing. I myself have run a modern Peugeot engine on 90% BD and 10% unleaded in winter without problem or indeed even noticing any performance difference.

 

This is of course for "internal" combustion I can't comment what would happen with drip feed heaters with petrol on it.

 

As to thaws out it will return to normal.

 

As a aside. BD made from different oils will have different wax temps.

 

Biggles

[Smelly]

As a producer of Biodiesel I can confirm that waxing of any oil will occur sooner or later as the temperature falls. In BD and in diesel years ago 5-10% petrol was added to stop waxing. I myself have run a modern Peugeot engine on 90% BD and 10% unleaded in winter without problem or indeed even noticing any performance difference.

 

This is of course for "internal" combustion I can't comment what would happen with drip feed heaters with petrol on it.

 

As to thaws out it will return to normal.

 

As a aside. BD made from different oils will have different wax temps.

 

Biggles

 

considering we might hit minus 10 in the next few days and that a member's boat has already had (possibly) waxing problems, can you give us an idea of the temp for 28 sec?

 

edit... a US site says -20 so I've stopped worrying.

Edited January 6, 2010 by Smelly

[Biggles]

considering we might hit minus 10 in the next few days and that a member's boat has already had (possibly) waxing problems, can you give us an idea of the temp for 28 sec?

 

edit... a US site says -20 so I've stopped worrying.

 

Googleing came up with this:-

 

Like most fuels, diesel is a mix of hydrocarbons, and the components have different freezing points. For Number 2 diesel, as the ambient temperatures drop toward 32 degrees F (0 degrees C), it begins to cloud, due to the paraffin in the fuel solidifying. As the temperatures drop below 32 F, the molecules combine into solids, large enough to be stopped by the filter. This is known as the gel point, and generally occurs about 15 degrees F (-9.5 degrees C) below the cloud point.

 

This wax then forms a coating on the filter which results in a loss of engine power. The same thing happens on starting an engine when the temperature is below freezing. The filter becomes almost instantly coated with wax - usually, enough fuel gets through to allow the engine to idle, but not attain operating RPM. There are two common ways to overcome this: one is a diesel additive, the other is a fuel heater.

 

and this

 

Linky

 

Biggles

[MarkAdrian]

Thanks for the replies guy,s. The forecast for my area (Stafford) is -8c tonight so I must be near the waxing point. My last top up of diesel was from a garage, so Im hoping there's enough antiwaxing agent mixed in with the red, sea otters only have a small tank. Thanx to for the info on the fuelset

[DHutch]

Like most fuels, diesel is a mix of hydrocarbons, and the components have different freezing points. For Number 2 diesel, as the ambient temperatures drop toward 32 degrees F (0 degrees C), it begins to cloud, due to the paraffin in the fuel solidifying. As the temperatures drop below 32 F, the molecules combine into solids, large enough to be stopped by the filter. This is known as the gel point, and generally occurs about 15 degrees F (-9.5 degrees C) below the cloud point.

I would have thought however, that once the diesal had warmed, it would simply desolidify in reverse order and become like normal.

- This would certainly tally with storys of truckers lighting fires under fuel tanks in winter to get going.

- As far as i know they wernt heating to fuel in order to drain it out and replace it, just to get it liquid again.

 

 

Daniel

[Trafalgar Marine]

My diesel storage heater wouldn't work on Monday at about -7 or 8. The diesel did look more viscous than usual.

 

It did get going after midday when the temperature had risen.

 

My liveaboard parents haven't had any diesel problems yet but they have been leaving their deck boards up so warm air is circulating around the engine.

[nb Innisfree]

I would have thought however, that once the diesal had warmed, it would simply desolidify in reverse order and become like normal.

- This would certainly tally with storys of truckers lighting fires under fuel tanks in winter to get going.

- As far as i know they wernt heating to fuel in order to drain it out and replace it, just to get it liquid again.

 

 

Daniel

 

Yes that's why they did it, just to return diesel to non waxing temp. Some diesel cars used to have their fuel filters incorporated into a small heat exchanger which was piped into engine coolant, my old Peugeot 305 had one, once you had got engine started then heater would keep filter wax free while under way. Prob specified for very cold countries where diesel will wax as it's temp drops due to wind chill from speed of car. A warm engine hole on a boat should keep diesel wax free.

[Dawnie]

considering we might hit minus 10 in the next few days and that a member's boat has already had (possibly) waxing problems, can you give us an idea of the temp for 28 sec?

 

edit... a US site says -20 so I've stopped worrying.

 

News today said temperatures last night dropped to -18 in Oxfordshire and greater Manchester, might be time to start worrying again?

Edited January 7, 2010 by Dawnie

[Smelly]

News today said temperatures last night dropped to -18 in Oxfordshire and greater Manchester, might be time to start worrying again?

 

Outer Birmingham got -12, inner city would've been a bit warmer though.

[stuart]

Like most fuels, diesel is a mix of hydrocarbons, and the components have different freezing points. For Number 2 diesel, as the ambient temperatures drop toward 32 degrees F (0 degrees C), it begins to cloud, due to the paraffin in the fuel solidifying. As the temperatures drop below 32 F, the molecules combine into solids, large enough to be stopped by the filter. This is known as the gel point, and generally occurs about 15 degrees F (-9.5 degrees C) below the cloud point.

 

This wax then forms a coating on the filter which results in a loss of engine power. The same thing happens on starting an engine when the temperature is below freezing. The filter becomes almost instantly coated with wax - usually, enough fuel gets through to allow the engine to idle, but not attain operating RPM. There are two common ways to overcome this: one is a diesel additive, the other is a fuel heater.

 

Wow! Thats the exact same issues and problems I've had over Christmas with my boat. The canal froze, and external temperature reported -9c.

 

The engine would run, but would often stall and cut out if the revs were increased much above tick over.

 

I replaced the filters and all was well again.