Licence evasion - here's one that really takes the urine

[alan_fincher]

I don't understand the continual comparison of a boat license to a driving licence.

 

A driving licence relates to a person, not to a piece of hardware, and applies whatever you are driving. Apples and pears!

 

Additionally there is no legal requirement to carry it, only to produce it within a fixed period, on demand.

 

The comparison to a motor vehicle license is more valid - it relates to the piece of kit, which, if it is a place where it applies, needs a license whether anybody is using it, or not.

 

One is required to display a motor vehicle license, not carry it around in a wallet, and I really can't see the big difference.

 

The wallet approach does not work in the case where a boat is used other than by the owner, unless they remember to pass it around as part of the process. Certainly doesn't work when the wallet is not with the boat!

 

A displayed licence (car or boat) allows a degree of pre-checking by staff who have a right to, without them needing to tap things into a computer, or make a phone or radio call. That must be cheaper and quicker.

 

No idea why I'm continuing to argue though - clearly not going to shift Carl on the topic, but neither can I see him building up a large group of supporters on this point!

[carlt]

The wallet approach does not work in the case where a boat is used other than by the owner, unless they remember to pass it around as part of the process. Certainly doesn't work when the wallet is not with the boat!

I don't let other people use my boats but, should the situation arise "The licence is in the top drawer." would seem to work, which is where it lived, on my boat, except when underway.

 

On the subject of support, you should see all the pms I have, on the topic

[alan_fincher]

On the subject of support, you should see all the pms I have, on the topic

In which case I can only assume they think you are arguing your position so convincingly that they couldn't possibly further strengthen your argument by joining in in this thread themselves ?

 

It certainly will not stop me supporting you on many other things, but this one I'll never get, I'm afraid.

 

I'll still have a drink with you though, (if you'll let me!).

[carlt]

In which case I can only assume they think you are arguing your position so convincingly that they couldn't possibly further strengthen your argument by joining in in this thread themselves ?

I haven't had any pms (hence the smiley).

 

It seems a popular ruse to claim a flood of supporting pms, in order to sway an argument, so I thought I'd give it a go.

 

I certainly don't expect the majority to support me.

 

Very few people actually refused to pay their poll tax.

 

There will be a handful of folk who accept a prison sentence, rather than carry an id card.

 

One person, on this thread has said that they won't be displaying their licence, any more.

 

Result!

 

and not one person has said that they've been convinced by the opposition and will be replacing their licence back in the window.

 

One - nil to me, I fancy!

Edited September 8, 2009 by carlt

[Naughty Cal]

and not one person has said that they've been convinced by the opposition and will be replacing their licence back in the window.

 

One - nil to me, I fancy!

 

Because most display them: One-One

[carlt]

Because most display them: One-One

Nope, fraid not.

 

I've changed one mind, the opposition hasn't.

 

One - nil!

[Naughty Cal]

One:One

[mayalld]

One person, on this thread has said that they won't be displaying their licence, any more.

 

Result!

 

and not one person has said that they've been convinced by the opposition and will be replacing their licence back in the window.

 

One - nil to me, I fancy!

 

Nope.

 

You were formerly the owner of two fully licenced boats that displayed no licences.

You are not currently the owner of any boats which require a BW licence.

 

So, by my count, in order to "win" you need to convince 3 people to not display, so as to replace your two non-displaying boats, and add one more to the tally.

 

On the same subject, do you think it appropriate to try to convince people do break the law "with you", when you aren't actually doing so yourself at present.

[carlt]

Nope.

 

You were formerly the owner of two fully licenced boats that displayed no licences.

You are not currently the owner of any boats which require a BW licence.

 

So, by my count, in order to "win" you need to convince 3 people to not display, so as to replace your two non-displaying boats, and add one more to the tally.

 

On the same subject, do you think it appropriate to try to convince people do break the law "with you", when you aren't actually doing so yourself at present.

I don't display my Harbour authority plate, does that count?

 

On the same subject I have merely put forward my argument. Whether or not people are influenced by my case is none of my business but it may well be highly inappropriate, in some people's minds.

[Naughty Cal]

Have we reached any conclusions yet?

[casper ghost]

Have we reached any conclusions yet?

 

People are stubborn

[mayalld]

I don't display my Harbour authority plate, does that count?

 

On the same subject I have merely put forward my argument. Whether or not people are influenced by my case is none of my business but it may well be highly inappropriate, in some people's minds.

 

I have no idea whether there is a requirement to display the plate. I wouldn't presume to comment on something that I don't know the facts of.

 

I just think that when rabble rousing to break the law it might be best to admit that you personally aren't going to break this law.

[carlt]

Have we reached any conclusions yet?

Are there any conclusions to reach?

 

I think there is definitely evidence to suggest that the little bit of paper stuck in the window has had its day.

 

Even the esteemed AlanH is impressed by the technology adopted by the DVLA, which has effectively made the car tax disc redundant.

 

Will we be seeing automatic index number recognition scanners, in the future? Probably.

 

This would make the job of enforcement easier, for the relevant authority, but so much less fun for the curtain twitcher.

[Sir Nibble]

I don't display my Harbour authority plate, does that count?

 

On the same subject I have merely put forward my argument. Whether or not people are influenced by my case is none of my business but it may well be highly inappropriate, in some people's minds.

Not so much inappropriate Carl, speaking purely for myself, if they bring in compulsory ID cards, I will be in the next cell. It's just that this seems to be such a petty absolutely nothing of an issue to make a stand over. Displaying a disc indicates you have paid your licence in the same way that moving the boat indicates you have bought some fuel. It's a nothing, no invasion of privacy, no infringement of freedom and Personally I feel that your determination on this issue undermines the efforts at non violent confrontation made by those who are dealing with, and have dealt with, really important issues. On a civil liberties basis, it's crying wolf.

Are sure your real motivation isn't just spite at those who might report you? Are you hoping to engineer a confrontation with some part time hobby fascist just for the fun of it?

I question your judgement on this point.

[carlt]

I just think that when rabble rousing to break the law it might be best to admit that you personally aren't going to break this law.

If you think that I shouldn't be allowed relate my experience, over the past 26 years of boating, on BW waters, and air the opinions I've formed, over that time, then you are suggesting a serious curtailment of freedom of speech.

 

 

Are sure your real motivation isn't just spite at those who might report you? Are you hoping to engineer a confrontation with some part time hobby fascist just for the fun of it?

Not at all.

 

It is the "part time hobby fascist", that wishes to intrude on the private lives of those he sneers down on, that make this a more important point than it might have been.

[Sir Nibble]

If you think that I shouldn't be allowed relate my experience, over the past 26 years of boating, on BW waters, and air the opinions I've formed, over that time, then you are suggesting a serious curtailment of freedom of speech.

 

 

 

Not at all.

 

It is the "part time hobby fascist", that wishes to intrude on the private lives of those he sneers down on, that make this a more important point than it might have been.

But it's you who make it an issue!

"I don't display my card because hobby fascists sneer at people who don't display their card" Is a neither morally nor intellectually sustainable point.

Is it perhaps an attempt to show solidarity with those sneered at? ie the licence evader?

[mayalld]

If you think that I shouldn't be allowed relate my experience, over the past 26 years of boating, on BW waters, and air the opinions I've formed, over that time, then you are suggesting a serious curtailment of freedom of speech.

 

Not at all.

 

However, given that you see it as a victory if somebody follows your example, you really ought to be up front about the fact that your defiance is no longer current.

[Axe]

If you read the back of your licence it states it is a legal requirement to display it

 

Di (using Axe's logon)

[carlt]

Not at all.

 

However, given that you see it as a victory if somebody follows your example, you really ought to be up front about the fact that your defiance is no longer current.

It was actually a joke (the person who said he was stopping was also joking, referring to the lack of light through the porthole).

 

I have stated that my opinion and actions are based on past events and make no secret that I have no boat on BW waters, at the moment.

 

I have merely been having an interesting discussion on choices that I have made.

 

If you want to turn it into something deeply sinister then that is your problem, not mine.

 

 

 

If you read the back of your licence it states it is a legal requirement to display it

We established that 9 pages ago.

 

 

 

But it's you who make it an issue!

"I don't display my card because hobby fascists sneer at people who don't display their card" Is a neither morally nor intellectually sustainable point.

Is it perhaps an attempt to show solidarity with those sneered at? ie the licence evader?

You are not only putting words in my mouth but they're words you wrote, not me!

 

I have repeatedly stated my opinion that everybody should pay their licence fee and BW should be more effective at enforcement.

 

Why do you attempt to twist what I've said?

[mayalld]

It was actually a joke (the person who said he was stopping was also joking, referring to the lack of light through the porthole).

 

I have stated that my opinion and actions are based on past events and make no secret that I have no boat on BW waters, at the moment.

 

I have merely been having an interesting discussion on choices that I have made.

 

If you want to turn it into something deeply sinister then that is your problem, not mine.

 

I don't wish to make it into something deeply sinister.

 

However, I really can't take your whole civil disobedience line seriously.

 

Not displaying a licence isn't making a stand for your rights, it is being awkward for the sake of it, without regard for the administrative burden thus created.

[carlt]

Not displaying a licence isn't making a stand for your rights, it is being awkward for the sake of it, without regard for the administrative burden thus created.

In your opinion, and you're entitled to it.

[mayalld]

In your opinion, and you're entitled to it.

 

I am indeed.

[homer2911]

In your opinion, and you're entitled to it.

 

In my opinion, and I am also entitled to it, anyone who has willfully not paid for a valid BW licence for their boat, or who blatantly evades the CC regulations, is a parasite. Such people annoy me to the extent that I feel entitled to report them to BW, in the same way that I would report a known burglar or bank-robber.

 

All of the discussions concerning the necessity or otherwise of a piece of paper displayed in the window of a boat, proving that a licence has been paid for, is a complete and utter red herring. Most people not displaying a licence, or displaying one that is considerably out of date, will not have paid for a current licence, and will almost certainly number among those parasites.

 

If Carlt, or any other indvidual wants to play games just because he can, that's his affair, and the number of licence-dodgers will not be affected, but he can expect to be reported now and then as not having a licence - it appears he rather enjoys producing it with a flourish from his wallet, so he shouldn't mind being reported in the least.

 

I object very strongly to people like Carlt referring to me and others like me as hobby fascists sneering at people who don't display their card, curtain twitchers, having an unhealthy or overactive interest in other people's affairs, snitches, pests , and busybodies.

 

Just by the by, Carlt confuses us by claiming that he carries his boat licence folded up in his wallet ready for immediate inspection, but also says in this thread that he has 'not had a boat on BW waters for some time'. I'm puzzled.

[carlt]

I object very strongly to people like Carlt referring to me and others like me as hobby fascists sneering at people who don't display their card, curtain twitchers, having an unhealthy or overactive interest in other people's affairs, snitches, pests , and busybodies.

 

Just by the by, Carlt confuses us by claiming that he carries his boat licence folded up in his wallet ready for immediate inspection, but also says in this thread that he has 'not had a boat on BW waters for some time'. I'm puzzled.

I did not refer to anybody as a hobby fascist, I quoted someone who did.

 

I have not referred to you as a curtain twitcher, snitch, pest or busybody, it is merely my opinion about a group of people who you may, or may not, identify with.

 

I do not have a boat on BW waters, at the moment, but I do have a British Waterways Licence, which is kept neatly in my wallet, alongside any other documents I may have to produce, at some time.

 

I apologise for puzzling you.

 

Most people not displaying a licence, or displaying one that is considerably out of date, will not have paid for a current licence, and will almost certainly number among those parasites.

You have no facts on which to base this judgement so I shall assume it is merely your opinion, of which, of course, you are entitled.

[magpie patrick]

double post

Edited September 8, 2009 by magpie patrick