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Gardner 4LW difficult to start


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OK.

 

We have a fault, not crying, laughing.

 

So...

 

Who are Walsh's? And why isn't the modern machine suitable?

 

resisted easystart. So i'm not sacked.

 

I agree with "just because they were serviced doesn't mean they were right" although they were exchange units from Tony Redshaw so i would have thought they had a fighting chance of being OK then.

 

Good news about the timing. I wasn't going anywhere near that can of worms.

 

Gardner do refer throughout to 'sprayers'. Who are we to disagree?

 

rings and valves would be a good next step but all you people do not know what it's like in the South West trying to find reputable engineers so I guess this is a next year.

 

oh and Pete, please don't be huffy, i did read #43 and we did look at the injectors and we will get them serviced.

 

The diesel is squeaky clean.

 

and, yes, fitter i may be but I don't over-tighten onto old studs - delicate i am, ask my girlfriend.

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And the difference is?

I think you will find that the name is all the difference there is, they're injectors.

Hi, I agree, however Gardners did not make diesels but 'oil engines' fitted with sprayers I can only really follow the terminology found in the various workshop manuals prepared by Gardners.

 

Steamraiser2 hit the nail on the head though.

 

Leo.

 

 

Hi,

 

Walshes Engineering Ltd 0161 787 7017.

 

my 2 Lw was re-conditioned by them.

 

Leo.

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Hi, I agree, however Gardners did not make diesels but 'oil engines' fitted with sprayers I can only really follow the terminology found in the various workshop manuals prepared by Gardners.

 

Steamraiser2 hit the nail on the head though.

 

Leo.

 

 

Hi,

 

Walshes Engineering Ltd 0161 787 7017.

 

my 2 Lw was re-conditioned by them.

 

Leo.

Yes back in the dim and distant past all diesels were known as "oil engines". Sprayers and injectors are interchangeable terms much like gudgeon pin and wrist pin, gardner just always seemed to think that the use of archeaic terms gave some sort of cachet.

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OK.

 

We have a fault, not crying, laughing.

 

So...

 

Who are Walsh's? And why isn't the modern machine suitable?

 

resisted easystart. So i'm not sacked.

 

I agree with "just because they were serviced doesn't mean they were right" although they were exchange units from Tony Redshaw so i would have thought they had a fighting chance of being OK then.

 

Good news about the timing. I wasn't going anywhere near that can of worms.

 

Gardner do refer throughout to 'sprayers'. Who are we to disagree?

 

rings and valves would be a good next step but all you people do not know what it's like in the South West trying to find reputable engineers so I guess this is a next year.

 

oh and Pete, please don't be huffy, i did read #43 and we did look at the injectors and we will get them serviced.

 

The diesel is squeaky clean.

 

and, yes, fitter i may be but I don't over-tighten onto old studs - delicate i am, ask my girlfriend.

Chris-Walsh's are in Manchester, and most of the people are ex-Gardners I think. The guy to speak to is Tony Blackburn(Yep!) What they don't know ain't worth knowing.

I'm afraid I cannot share your opinion of Mr Redshaw.

May I make one suggestion, before this engine has anything major done to it? I know of an engine additive which actually does work. I can hear the cynical laughter from the experts as I write. If you'd care to know more, let me know.

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Yes back in the dim and distant past all diesels were known as "oil engines". Sprayers and injectors are interchangeable terms much like gudgeon pin and wrist pin, gardner just always seemed to think that the use of archeaic terms gave some sort of cachet.

 

True, but the quality of English and the narrative used in the Gardner manuals is glorious, sadly debased by the 'estuary' patois and 'chino' english we encounter all to often now in life and instructions. I rest my case and let's get back to the matter under discussion - the unhappy 4LW.

 

ATB

 

Leo

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True, but the quality of English and the narrative used in the Gardner manuals is glorious, sadly debased by the 'estuary' patois and 'chino' english we encounter all to often now in life and instructions. I rest my case and let's get back to the matter under discussion - the unhappy 4LW.

 

Leo

 

Keep up at the back there!!

 

It's a 4LK, has been for some time :lol:

 

Tim

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OK.

 

We have a fault, not crying, laughing.

 

So...

 

Who are Walsh's?

 

Another one not paying attention. Read post 32 :lol:

 

resisted easystart. So i'm not sacked.

 

I agree with "just because they were serviced doesn't mean they were right" although they were exchange units from Tony Redshaw so i would have thought they had a fighting chance of being OK then.

 

Good news about the timing. I wasn't going anywhere near that can of worms.

 

Gardner do refer throughout to 'sprayers'. Who are we to disagree?

 

rings and valves would be a good next step but all you people do not know what it's like in the South West trying to find reputable engineers so I guess this is a next year.

 

oh and Pete, please don't be huffy, i did read #43 and we did look at the injectors and we will get them serviced.

 

The diesel is squeaky clean.

 

and, yes, fitter i may be but I don't over-tighten onto old studs - delicate i am, ask my girlfriend.

 

Sprayers, injectors, all the same thing.

 

The injector/sprayer studs are not just 'old studs'. They really don't need to be as tight as you would expect for their size.

 

Tim

Edited by Timleech
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The Hartridge tester.. a wonderful piece of kit i've got one. Its great for every "modern" injector but does'nt like the old Gardner injectors one bit. Every set we have done on the tester seems to have a somewhat spluttering spray pattern. Its been true of loads of them including the Bosch clone ones from Kromhout LWs.

 

Advice from Walsh's was that its the Hartridge tester and they are right. The Gardner injectors are great on an old Bryce tester. Funnily enough Lister JP injectors..also very old types are fine on the Hartridge. But recons from Walsh's are pretty cheap compared with the rest of the market so I'd recommend them to anyone for the Gardner.

 

Incidentally the Bosch pump and injectors used in the Dutch Kromhout LWs are identical effectively but are set for far higher pressures than the CAV ones...but it does not seem to make a blind bit of difference... they can kill all insect life within an hundred yard radius as well as any Brit Gardner! :lol:

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Hi guys, I have been following this thread with interest. Some GARDNER history for the non-believers. L2 series introduced 1929 as a high speed marine unit 1300 rpm. LW series 1931 1700 rpm. L3 series 1930 marine only 900 rpm. LK series 1935 light goods and passenger vehicles high speed 2100 rpm. All series made under license by Bernard--France..LaMiese--Belgium and Kromhout in Holland. 4LK could be had with ---All alloy engine,valve clearance .002 both. C.I. engine--.008 in

.012 ex C.I. block/alu head .003 in .006 ex Alu block/CI head .003 in /006 ex.----idle speed 450 rpm marine or 330 rpm vehicle. As a previous poster has said, the sprayers are retained just finger tight in the heads, they won't blow out. They also have an ecceedingly long needle which can be distorted when screwed down too tight so affecting the spray pattern. The "priming " handles on the fuel pump blocks is just for testing and SHOULD NOT be used prior to starting. THAT IS A JUST A LOAD OF RUBBISH that you are priming the cylinders. All you have been doing is washing the cylinder walls clean of oil. Gardner gearbox contains some serious iron in the way of planetary gears and bands all dragging in cold oil with some going in one direction and some in another. When you engage "AHEAD" this locks the whole thing in a mass, so making it easier to swing at cranking speed but make sure you either double up on the moorings or have a crewman stand by to disengage smartly.The hair dryer sounds a good idea but it will take some time to attain enough heat thru the heads.If it was my boat I would find a deep hole in the river, jam the bows in the bank and FLOG the daylights out of her for a day, really make that engine work and get some oil back into the skin of the pistons. remember they are lightweight aluminum, only weigh 3 1/2 lbs. each. Hope this helps. Ray

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If it was my boat I would find a deep hole in the river, jam the bows in the bank and FLOG the daylights out of her for a day, really make that engine work and get some oil back into the skin of the pistons....

A man after my own heart.

 

I think we all keep forgetting that diesel engines love to be worked hard and hot.

 

The JP3 in Ocelot has a very relaxed life, spending most of its time at around 600 rpm and lightly loaded. Its good to get her on the Cherwell (deep water) or the Thames so that she can strech her legs and give the engine some work.

 

I couldn't find a reference to what boat the original posts 4LW was fitted. If it is a nb, then it will never work for living!

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This has been a fascinating and informative thread. As a gardner owner but a completely non-technical person, I have empathised with some posts and been awed and baffled by others.

Two things I'd like to know:

1: I lift the decompressor before I start the engine (it's a key start). But it snaps back down immediately I gun the engine. Should it?

2: Where is this "excess fuel" button and will it help to start the engine better on cold days?

Unfortunately Walsh's did not supply a manual with the engine, not that I would have understood very much of it anyway.

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The "priming " handles on the fuel pump blocks is just for testing and SHOULD NOT be used prior to starting. THAT IS A JUST A LOAD OF RUBBISH that you are priming the cylinders.

 

The Handbook with the engine recommends 5 applications of each priming lever before starting on cold mornings, is this to aid lubrication?

 

My National will never start without a great deal of priming before swinging it.

 

 

The injectors have been sent to Walshes expected back today or tomorrow, fingers crossed folks.

 

2: Where is this "excess fuel" button and will it help to start the engine better on cold days?

 

it is underneath the left hand side of the fuel pump and will make the rack 'pop out" to the right. You need stop disengaged to make it happen

 

I couldn't find a reference to what boat the original posts 4LW was fitted. If it is a nb, then it will never work for living!

it's a converted Bantock.

Edited by Chris Pink
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The Handbook with the engine recommends 5 applications of each priming lever before starting on cold mornings, is this to aid lubrication?

 

My National will never start without a great deal of priming before swinging it.

 

The extra diesel will dilute the oil on the cylinder walls, thereby making it easier to turn over when it's cold. It'll also help it to fire initially.

If you think that a National is bad, try a Crossley BW :lol:

 

I couldn't find a reference to what boat the original posts 4LW was fitted. If it is a nb, then it will never work for living!

 

It's a converted Bantock

 

I thought it was established several pages back that it's a 4LK :lol:

 

It'll still never do any real work, though!

 

Tim

Edited by Timleech
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This has been a fascinating and informative thread. As a gardner owner but a completely non-technical person, I have empathised with some posts and been awed and baffled by others.

Two things I'd like to know:

1: I lift the decompressor before I start the engine (it's a key start). But it snaps back down immediately I gun the engine. Should it?

2: Where is this "excess fuel" button and will it help to start the engine better on cold days?

Unfortunately Walsh's did not supply a manual with the engine, not that I would have understood very much of it anyway.

 

Hi,

 

A manual is available from Gardner Enthusiast, there are two types covering the LW series (I think yours is a 2LW like mine) one is for general running instructions and the second a more comprehensive manual covering dis-assembly and rebuilding. The first would help you, if only to show the injector pump bleed points if you run out of fuel.

 

The levers on the injector pump effectivley cuts out that injector when engaged and the engine can then run on 1 cylinder (if it is a 2LW) for testing so I can't see how they would help with starting the engine.

 

Not sure if you have an oil pressure gauge but the oil pressure seems to increase slowly when starting from cold, I would start your engine at low revs and build up slowly.

 

I never bother with the decompression lever, mine starts on the button even in cold weather

 

Hope that helps, they are fine engines and the 2LW is the best size for a narrowboat.

 

Leo.

Edited by LEO
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I thought it was established several pages back that it's a 4LK :lol:

 

It'll still never do any real work, though!

 

Tim

Ah....

 

Missed that. A 4LK isn't that bad.

 

At the risk of opening up the old torque subject, a 4LK is producing 143 ft lbs (57hp @ 2100rpm). That's similar to my JP3 - 142 ft lbs (27hp @ 1000rpm)

 

I thought it was a 4LW which is 232 ft lbs (75hp @ 1700rpm). Shed loads of grunt :lol:

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The levers on the injector pump effectivley cuts out that injector when engaged and the engine can then run on 1 cylinder (if it is a 2LW) for testing so I can't see how they would help with starting the engine.

 

By adding extra fuel to the combustion space (bumps up the compression ratio a bit, among other things) and, when very cold, by diluting the (cold, thick) oil on the cylinder walls.

Too much priming is certainly A Bad Thing.

 

Not sure if you have an oil pressure gauge but the oil pressure seems to increase slowly when starting from cold, I would start your engine at low revs and build up slowly.

 

That's mainly because the gauge is fed through a tiny hole which limits the damage if the pipe splits, and protects the gauge from shock loading. It also means the gauge takes a while to register fully, especially when the oil is cold.

 

Hope that helps, they are fine engines and the 2LW is the best size for a narrowboat.

 

Leo.

 

Agreed.

 

Tim

 

Ah....

 

Missed that. A 4LK isn't that bad.

 

At the risk of opening up the old torque subject, a 4LK is producing 143 ft lbs (57hp @ 2100rpm). That's similar to my JP3 - 142 ft lbs (27hp @ 1000rpm)

 

I thought it was a 4LW which is 232 ft lbs (75hp @ 1700rpm). Shed loads of grunt :lol:

 

 

They're about the same horsepower, though!

(The LK was usually rated at over 60 bhp)

 

<Ducks>

 

Tim

Edited by Timleech
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Thanks Leo. I shall contact them. I don't think I'll need the one about dismantling and reassembly: I might conceivably manage the former, but never the latter! Yes, it's a 2LW, one of those reclaimed ex-South African railway ones rebuilt by Walsh's. No oil pressure gauge, I just have two thermometers on the engine; I assume that one is for water temp. and the other for oil ditto.

I have no option but to start it in low revs as, especially if I put it in gear to warm it up quicker, it refuses to go above lowish revs until it's good'n'warm. In neutral, the engine note rises and falls as the revs speed up and slow down all on their own - is this normal? I have also noticed that the engine sound changes when it's warmed up; it's hard to describe the sound, but I would say it becomes less harsh and more liquid.

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Thanks Leo. I shall contact them. I don't think I'll need the one about dismantling and reassembly: I might conceivably manage the former, but never the latter! Yes, it's a 2LW, one of those reclaimed ex-South African railway ones rebuilt by Walsh's. No oil pressure gauge, I just have two thermometers on the engine; I assume that one is for water temp. and the other for oil ditto.

I have no option but to start it in low revs as, especially if I put it in gear to warm it up quicker, it refuses to go above lowish revs until it's good'n'warm. In neutral, the engine note rises and falls as the revs speed up and slow down all on their own - is this normal? I have also noticed that the engine sound changes when it's warmed up; it's hard to describe the sound, but I would say it becomes less harsh and more liquid.

 

Hi,

 

I think that most 2LW's came back from South Africa, apparently mine did - in a very sorry state, about 6 years ago. Yes, there are 2 thermometers, unless they are fitted properly it is easy to break the glass in them, replacements are available, send me a PM for details, they are about £9 each.. The change in engine speeds is the Governor trying to maintain a minimum tick over speed, others will advise on this. The engines do run more sweetly when warmed up.

 

Send me a PM and I will forward a photo of mine before rebuilding I would imagine yours was in the same state.

 

Leo

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I have been repairing and rebuilding Gardners for many years now and that is the first I have heard that priming to wash the oil from the cylinder walls to aid compression baffles me. Even if it is in someones "handbook" try and avoid doing it in the future. SOME decompressors have two positions, turn one way for normal inlet valve lift before swinging over--turn the other way and it drops the lifter at B.D.C thus allowing the engine to get a greater gulp of air. This does not alter the compression pressure, just the volume. Other heads have ratchet types which when set allow the cranker 12 turns of the handle before automaticly dropping off the ratchet. These heads were mainly on the 5-6 and 8LW without electric start. Gardner engines were supreme throughout the Pacific in all native run boats as they were considered absolutely "Kanaka" proof, next in popularity came the good old Lister-JK and JP, not those horrid little FR's though, a few Nationals but they were always bothered with displaced pushrods when over-reved like when dropping off a wave. Kelvins were never in the hunt, can't trust a native with petrol in a boat. regards Ray

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I have been repairing and rebuilding Gardners for many years now and that is the first I have heard that priming to wash the oil from the cylinder walls to aid compression baffles me. Even if it is in someones "handbook" try and avoid doing it in the future.

 

''Someone's handbook" is Gardners' own manual for the 4LK, I'm pretty sure it also appears in at least some versions of the LW manual, maybe others.

I don't see it as anything to get too excited about, priming in that way used to be a common feature of older diesels especially those where hand starting was the norm, and the effect isn't fundamentally different from cranking the engine over a few times with the starter motor. Overdoing it is definitely a bad idea.

 

As an aside, I remember being asked to help hand-start a 6LW-engined Foden wagon in the 'sixties, the wagon wasn't in its first flush of youth even then. The procedure is described in the LW manual (again, some versions. I wish I could find mine, it's gone into hiding for the moment), and very likely includes priming the injectors/cylinders in cold weather. Three men on a rope looped around the starting handle, pulling it smartly over compression. According to the book "the engine will start" (my italics). The book didn't lie :lol:

 

Tim

Edited by Timleech
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not those horrid little FR's though, a few Nationals but they were always bothered with displaced pushrods when over-reved like when dropping off a wave.

Looks like the crew of Warrior had better avoid the "Middle level bore", or they'll lose their pushrods, and I'll just go an unbolt my FR2 and drop it quietly over the side in a remote lode. :lol:

 

MP.

Edited by MoominPapa
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:lol: We don't care, we have got three of them!!! and we have a 'proper' marine engine and box, none of those nancy pump or generator engines with their fixed speed governors and weedy thrusts - wimps or what? Real men (or both sexes) have a National but I don't know where that leaves Steve :lol:

Steady on old bean ;)

 

Strangely enough. Apart from the crankshaft counterbalance locking plates, guess what the only other thing missing from my National was?

 

A push rod :lol:

 

In a previous life it had obviously dropped off a wave (or fell out of the basket :lol: )

 

Anyway, Ocelot's JP is a genuine marine unit - just got the prm bolted to it (anyone got an old Blackstone they don't want?)

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''Someone's handbook" is Gardners' own manual for the 4LK, I'm pretty sure it also appears in at least some versions of the LW manual, maybe others.

I don't see it as anything to get too excited about, priming in that way used to be a common feature of older diesels especially those where hand starting was the norm, and the effect isn't fundamentally different from cranking the engine over a few times with the starter motor. Overdoing it is definitely a bad idea.

 

As an aside, I remember being asked to help hand-start a 6LW-engined Foden wagon in the 'sixties, the wagon wasn't in its first flush of youth even then. The procedure is described in the LW manual (again, some versions. I wish I could find mine, it's gone into hiding for the moment), and very likely includes priming the injectors/cylinders in cold weather. Three men on a rope looped around the starting handle, pulling it smartly over compression. According to the book "the engine will start" (my italics). The book didn't lie :lol:

 

Tim

Instructions in "Handbooks" When I worked offshore the instructions in the handbook instructed you to fire a shot of "Easystart" into the engine before starting. This was done every Monday without fail. We use to change the Either cylinders more often than topping up the diesel tank. The system was plumbed in and you just lifted the lever before turning the engine over.

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