Millscale

[RLWP]

True. Unless I epoxy it

 

Even then. Epoxy isn't scratch resistant. I assume you are planning to use this boat at some time so the hull will get scratched.

 

Richard

 

Actually, I don't think scratch covers some of the things that have happened to our hull over the years!

[rider66]

Even then. Epoxy isn't scratch resistant. I assume you are planning to use this boat at some time so the hull will get scratched.

 

Richard

 

Actually, I don't think scratch covers some of the things that have happened to our hull over the years!

 

Well yes. Which takes us neatly back to bottom blacking again. It was suggested by surveyor that blasting and blackin would add value to the boat.

 

Christian

 

 

Well yes. Which takes us neatly back to bottom blacking again. It was suggested by surveyor that blasting and blackin would add value to the boat.

 

Christian

 

Sorry, meant to type blasting and epoxying

[Gary Peacock]

No its not CE marked-thats the European thingy?. I understiood from the surveyor that he can sell it on and I'll have to get it done within 5 years of "finishing" the boat. Another £2000 for CE i believe.

 

Christian

 

 

 

True. Unless I epoxy it

 

That's wrong!

 

From the first time it entered the open market it can't be legally sold for five years from the date of full completion and that date is the responsibility of the owner to document in some legally credible form.

If not it needs to be CE marked prior to sale.

 

You're discounted offer is becoming better.

 

You could just mention the £5000.00 and or 3 months imprisonment penalty to make it even more attractive.

Edited July 22, 2008 by Gary Peacock

[rider66]

That's wrong!

 

From the first time it entered the open market it can't be legally sold for five years from the date of full completion and that date is the responsibility of the owner to document in some legally credible form.

If not it needs to be CE marked prior to sale.

 

You're discounted offer is becoming better.

 

You could just mention the £5000.00 and or 3 months imprisonment penalty to make it even more attractive.

Hmm.

So if I buy it now and finish the job next year it will be another 5 years before I could sell it!! I guess its me facing the 3months/£5k fine

What is the point of such a law.

 

 

Hmm.

So if I buy it now and finish the job next year it will be another 5 years before I could sell it!! I guess its me facing the 3months/£5k fine

What is the point of such a law.

The whole point of this project is FREEDOM

[RLWP]

Sorry, meant to type blasting and epoxying

 

Hi Christian,

 

That's an interesting opinion, I think I'm going to let Gary handle that one as well.

 

Hope that the conversation has helped,

 

Richard

[rider66]

Hi Christian,

 

That's an interesting opinion, I think I'm going to let Gary handle that one as well.

 

Hope that the conversation has helped,

 

Richard

 

Yes thank you. Informed comment is always welcome. Still unsure as to how to proceed. I'm sure it will all come out in the wash.

 

Christian

[Gary Peacock]

Hmm.

So if I buy it now and finish the job next year it will be another 5 years before I could sell it!! I guess its me facing the 3months/£5k fine

What is the point of such a law.

 

That would be interesting legally because the provision in law is for the first time it was placed on the open market after that it would not probably be enforcible but the boat could be considered a bit dodgie by a broker or finance company in the future.

 

The reason it exists is to prevent anybody just building a boat without complying to the regulations and then selling it to some poor sod who doesn't realise what they are buying might not even be safe, the same thing now applies to every product you buy in the EU.

[rider66]

That would be interesting legally because the provision in law is for the first time it was placed on the open market after that it would not probably be enforcible but the boat could be considered a bit dodgie by a broker or finance company in the future.

 

The reason it exists is to prevent anybody just building a boat without complying to the regulations and then selling it to some poor sod who doesn't realise what they are buying might not even be safe, the same thing now applies to every product you buy in the EU.

 

So I would be wise to get it CE'd if I ever wanted to sell. But if I were to, then I couldn't sell for 5 years. If the present owner CE'd it now could he then not sell to me or anyone within 5 years?

 

Christian

[Eddimonton]

Yes, my boat is from a well known Liverpool boat builder and after just 6 months of being in the water the paint fell off in sections and the hull looked awful. The company assured me prior to buying the boat that its paint would be fine on the Medway (tidal) and but advised us to apply more paint before we finally went in for the first time. We did 5 more coats of intertuft. After a fair amount of effort "they" agreed to pay for the boat to come out of the water and to be sand blasted and repainted with intertuft. It cost a small fortune.

 

We weren't the only ones suffering and "they" changed what they advised customers in the future. However the surveyor blamed the cheap way in which the steel had been produced and that it should just be left to stand for a year and then be sand blasted and then painted and you'd have a great hull. As I have now!

 

It was a scarey experience as we thought we'd have to foot the bill.

[bottle]

So I would be wise to get it CE'd if I ever wanted to sell. But if I were to, then I couldn't sell for 5 years. If the present owner CE'd it now could he then not sell to me or anyone within 5 years?

 

Christian

 

Christian

 

I think you are getting confused, to legally sell a new boat it is required that it is built to the RCD (Recreational Craft Directive) with all the relative documents and certificates.

 

If the boat is not built to RCD, for instance a self builder that did not bother, then that boat cannot be sold for five years from completion.

 

When a sailaway is is sold (new) it will have a part RCD (annexe III ?)to the stage of build, with correct documentation, it is then up to the next fitter/boat builder to carry on and build to RCD, if they do not then it is illegal to sell it for five years.

[Gary Peacock]

Christian

 

I think you are getting confused, to legally sell a new boat it is required that it is built to the RCD (Recreational Craft Directive) with all the relative documents and certificates.

 

If the boat is not built to RCD, for instance a self builder that did not bother, then that boat cannot be sold for five years from completion.

 

When a sailaway is is sold (new) it will have a part RCD (annexe III ?)to the stage of build, with correct documentation, it is then up to the next fitter/boat builder to carry on and build to RCD, if they do not then it is illegal to sell it for five years.

 

The five years starts from the date of completion (Taken to mean "finished") but defining that date because the boat is not being built with any legal documentation that would normal carry that date is messy.

It ends up left to the owner to be able to prove the date in some legally submittable format, the usual examples are a dated document illustrating the completed boat held by your solicitor or other independent third party or an unopened dated registered letter to yourself.

 

 

You have to remember all of this is very basic UK/European consumer protection legislation, when you buy a vacuum cleaner etc very similar things apply.

 

But boats seems to be different in the eyes of boaters because they will happily buy what could be potentially a dangerous product in this case a boat while gloating about the savings made, but if I started building my own cut price vacuum cleaners in the spare bedroom they wouldn't even consider buying it.

 

The other thing that is worrying is the level of expertise some of the "expert" boat surveyors, a recent court case left one looking very less expert after he was called to give evidence and seemed to simply make it up as he went along.

 

Knowledge of the RCD at least on relatively new craft is a fairly important corner stone of the surveying process, the RCD as now been with us for over 10 years so to not have at least a basic understanding of it is a bit disturbing.

[stuart]

That would be interesting legally because the provision in law is for the first time it was placed on the open market after that it would not probably be enforcible but the boat could be considered a bit dodgie by a broker or finance company in the future.

 

The reason it exists is to prevent anybody just building a boat without complying to the regulations and then selling it to some poor sod who doesn't realise what they are buying might not even be safe, the same thing now applies to every product you buy in the EU.

 

Why not tell the current owners that the "boat" is not a boat - just a pile of steel - and buy the steel off them (for scrap prices). The fact the steel looks like a boat is just a bonus!

 

Would you avoid the CE marking etc. then?

[Gary Peacock]

Why not tell the current owners that the "boat" is not a boat - just a pile of steel - and buy the steel off them (for scrap prices). The fact the steel looks like a boat is just a bonus!

 

Would you avoid the CE marking etc. then?

 

There are hull builders out there who actually do that and there are boaters who knowing this still buy them.

 

They then use a little scam involving the BSS to get them on the water.

[Trilby Tim]

Yes, my boat is from a well known Liverpool boat builder and after just 6 months of being in the water the paint fell off in sections and the hull looked awful. The company assured me prior to buying the boat that its paint would be fine on the Medway (tidal) and but advised us to apply more paint before we finally went in for the first time. We did 5 more coats of intertuft. After a fair amount of effort "they" agreed to pay for the boat to come out of the water and to be sand blasted and repainted with intertuft. It cost a small fortune.

 

We weren't the only ones suffering and "they" changed what they advised customers in the future. However the surveyor blamed the cheap way in which the steel had been produced and that it should just be left to stand for a year and then be sand blasted and then painted and you'd have a great hull. As I have now!

 

It was a scarey experience as we thought we'd have to foot the bill.

Out of interest what are "they" now advising customers to do? As I understand it if the primer is on millscale and the millscale chooses not to stick to the metal then it doesn't matter what paint you apply over the top, it will still come off? Does anyone know why millscale can sometimes stay stuck for 20+ years and sometimes fall of within months and if there's anything that can be done to make it stable?

Is the Medway where your boat is salty or brackish?

[smileypete]

Yes thank you. Informed comment is always welcome. Still unsure as to how to proceed. I'm sure it will all come out in the wash.

 

Millscale tends to fall off steel that's tightly curved, eg round sterns.

 

Also supposedly it's 'cathodic' so might accelerate pitting corrosion initially.

 

Maybe just put the boat in the water and keep a close eye on it for the first few years, fit plenty of anodes.

 

Or get the sides/swim around/below the waterline blasted and use coal tar epoxy.

 

cheers,

Pete.

Edited July 24, 2008 by smileypete

[bag 'o' bones]

I'd never heard of 'Mill scale until I got involved in boating.

 

Instead of grit blasting why not treat plain steel with a phosphoric acid wash? It will strip mill scale away and any other surface corrosion leaving a nicely etched/phosphated surface after you wash it off with water leaving a good surface to paint on.

 

Personally whilst there are probally cases of mill scale causing paint to drop of I think a lot of it is scare stories.

[Larkboy]

I'm a narrowboater and a welder/fabricator. I bought my narrowboat brand new 3 years ago and had issues with the company over the blacking coming off in large patches, on examining these patches I could see that the reaso was that it had been applied over millscale, present on hot rolled plate. I got in touch with the technical department at International as it was their intertuf blacking that had been used. They told me that the steel should have been grit blasted to an 80 grit finish, and that they wouldn't guarantee their product without correct application. An independant specialist was sent to examine my hull, and he concured with my opinion that the hull had been improperly prepared. The upshot of all this was that my boat had to come out and be shot blasted and reblacked as per the specs for intertuf, I've had no problems since. When we paint unblasted steel at work, the red oxide paint will quite easily rub off, and the millscale will flake off taking the paint with it, so we generally get steel in ready blasted. So millscale will cause problems with any paint type coating, and it's best to check the specs of any coating to be used regarding correct preparation.

[John Orentas]

Hi Larky

 

I think you have answered your own questions, it has always been an accepted principle that you always apply bitumastic paint onto bare steel without primers of any kind.

 

All very well people saying that shells should be grit blasted but are they prepared to pay for it, not sure that I would.

[dor]

A number of these posts refer to mill scale causing problems with the blacking. Now, what is the difference between the bits that are blacked and the rest of the boat? I would have thought that if the mill scale is going to flake off, it is just as likely to do this under the paint as under the blacking. Or, is there some reason why the blacked hull should be more prone to the problem?

 

After all, if it is just the blacking that is flaking off, it is relatively easily rectified when next blacked; having the cabin sides fall off is a different matter!

[Larkboy]

A number of these posts refer to mill scale causing problems with the blacking. Now, what is the difference between the bits that are blacked and the rest of the boat? I would have thought that if the mill scale is going to flake off, it is just as likely to do this under the paint as under the blacking. Or, is there some reason why the blacked hull should be more prone to the problem?

 

After all, if it is just the blacking that is flaking off, it is relatively easily rectified when next blacked; having the cabin sides fall off is a different matter!

 

The reason it's more of a problem on the hull is that it tends to get rubbed and this means the blacking can just come straight off, also, on my boat it came off mainly where the plate had been curved to form the bow, thus weakening the adherance of the millscale to the plate. On the superstructure te sheet hasn't been formed and therefore the millscale has not been disturbed, plus if the painting is done properly then an undercote will be used which will help key the paint into the surface.

[Eastern]

I've read this topic with interest. IMHO the answer to the problem is to have the shell built by a 'proper' boatbuilder such as Norton Canes Boatbuilders (web site of the same name). Here the shell is built, left outside to rust for 3 months and then gritblasted back to bare metal, before being painted.

 

Sorry, but anything else is a botch. I'm afraid that you only get what you pay for in this life.

 

That's my quota of wise words used up for today

[Steve King]

Here the shell is built, left outside to rust for 3 months and then gritblasted back to bare metal, before being painted.

Sorry, but anything else is a botch.

Sweeping statement!

 

I purchased my Tayberg launch shell in grey primer in 1998 and painted the hull in Johnstone's coloured gloss with bitumastic paint below the waterline. It had no special preparation and yet I've never noticed any millscale or had trouble with paint coming off, inside or out, above or below the waterline.

 

 

Steve

[Eastern]

Sweeping statement!

 

I purchased my Tayberg launch shell in grey primer in 1998 and painted the hull in Johnstone's coloured gloss with bitumastic paint below the waterline. It had no special preparation and yet I've never noticed any millscale or had trouble with paint coming off, inside or out, above or below the waterline.

 

 

Steve

 

Ah yes Steve,

 

My grandad smoked 90 woodbines a day from the age of 12, and he lived to 103. There's alway and exception to the rule!

 

I think you may find that every boat that has had problems with millscale has not been rusted and gritblasted.

 

Over to the forum

[colin stone]

Best steel to build with is "shot blast and primed". Easiest way to do it and with labour rates probably the most cost effective. Shotblasting also de-stresses the steel sheets making it better for curvature.

BTW what is the approx price per ton now of Lloyds Grade A sheet steel shot blast and primed??

Millscale is a nightmare - my guardarails were not descaled and 4 years later the paint is not sticking very well in places. Out grinder!!!

Edited September 9, 2008 by colin stone

[NB Esk]

"Shotblasting also de-stresses the steel sheets"

 

is this a fact?, not come across this before. How's it work?