WEBASTO NIGHTMARE - COULD IT BE RED DIESEL ?

[Paul Sylvan]

Hi all,

 

I thought it was worth relaying my experiences to add to the melting pot.

After buying a Webasto Thermotop C in 2005, and installing it myself in 2006, I suffered continuous heater failures from within hours of first

commisioning it until I removed and returned it in November 2008.

 

During this time the heater was tested by both the dealer from whom I purchased it and Webasto UK. Both maintained that it was faultless.

 

Another dealer selling into the offshore market (Keto Ltd), despite having no vested interest, was the only organisation prepared to visit my boat

to investigate my difficulties without threatening me with a charge.

Toby Hague (Keto) spent six hours attempting to discover the cause of the heater fault. He concluded that the heater did indeed possess a fault but was unable to diagnose the cause.

He then emailed Webasto UK with his visit report, and asked them to help. No response was ever forthcoming from Webasto to my knowledge.

During my ownership of this heater I derived no use from it as for the majority of the time the boat was on dry land, being fitted out.

 

I finally issued a claim against the dealer through the county court. During the court hearing, the judge informed me that I had no claim as the heater was three years old.

(this stance taken by the judge is incorrect according to trading standards who told me that the sale of goods act provides me with some protection for up to six years)

The judge did say that I may be entitled to some costs however and suggested to the defendant that he may wish to make an offer to settle.

He did so to the tune of £1200 with the proviso that I did not mention his company in relation to my experiences in public. Hence the reason I have not mentioned them by name.

 

One other red herring I would like to dispell is that Webasto heaters carbon up due to dirty, inferior quality red diesel.

My heater had three new burners in it's short life (300 hours approx.) I had only run it on fuel bought from Countrywide Fuels, meeting the required British standards for red diesel

(and stored in clean containers). They informed me that they also supply two inland marinas.

 

My thanks go to Toby Hague (Keto) for his help and support and to Paul Sylvan who provided me positive encouragement on several occasions.

Absolutely no thanks to the dealer I bought the heater from in the first place or to Webasto UK who as far as I can tell, continue to sell in to a market aware that their product is

unsuitable for the fuel used in that market.

 

Rob

 

Hi Rob,

 

Having followed your story over the last year, I am pleased that your ‘Webasto Nightmare’ has now finally finished and that you have had the opportunity to tell your story. Given the appalling level of service that you personally received I am still aghast that you have been prevented from naming and shaming. I wonder how many other Webasto owners have also been ‘gagged’. This kind of behaviour prevents open and honest discussion and brings both Webasto and its suppliers into disrepute. I can only hope that truth will out in the fullness of time.

 

Paul Sylvan

[Nickhlx]

Hi Rob,

 

Having followed your story over the last year, I am pleased that your ‘Webasto Nightmare’ has now finally finished and that you have had the opportunity to tell your story. Given the appalling level of service that you personally received I am still aghast that you have been prevented from naming and shaming. I wonder how many other Webasto owners have also been ‘gagged’. This kind of behaviour prevents open and honest discussion and brings both Webasto and its suppliers into disrepute. I can only hope that truth will out in the fullness of time.

 

Paul Sylvan

 

 

The one thing that this thread leaves me amazed about is how some people get on fine with them... I can only think its either the fuel that they use, or the way they use them.

 

Personally, and its only supposition, I would be very ready to believe that some of the canalside suppliers tanks are in very poor shape, with condensation, low turnover, diesel bug and old engine oil in various proportions likely to be found in some / most / all of the tanks.

 

That, coupled with the still (to me) extortionate profits they seem to find necessary to make, makes me very happy to make my own arrangements, which has the added bonus of keeping me a tiny bit fitter, as well as saving me a packet

 

Nick

[robkg]

The one thing that this thread leaves me amazed about is how some people get on fine with them... I can only think its either the fuel that they use, or the way they use them.

 

Personally, and its only supposition, I would be very ready to believe that some of the canalside suppliers tanks are in very poor shape, with condensation, low turnover, diesel bug and old engine oil in various proportions likely to be found in some / most / all of the tanks.

 

That, coupled with the still (to me) extortionate profits they seem to find necessary to make, makes me very happy to make my own arrangements, which has the added bonus of keeping me a tiny bit fitter, as well as saving me a packet

 

Nick

Hi Nick,

It is my belief (also supposition) that the differences in individuals experiences with Webastos (and Eberspachers) is down to two factors.

The first being the duty cycle the heaters undergo, driven by the plumbing arrangement and the useage pattern (i.e. long running periods or short bursts)

Long periods at half power are bad news for carbon build up. This is not the fault of installer or the user. It is that the heater is incapable of working as a boat heater in some conditions.

 

The second being the variability of the red diesel coming out of different refineries/distribution depots. Not that I think any of this fuel fails to reach the necessary British standards, just that some areas of the country may have fuel with lower sulpher content. This is no excuse for these heaters not to work. They are sold to run on red diesel not just the best end of the spectrum of red diesel available.

After all, who amongst us carries a portable test kit on our boat so that we can check the sulpher content/cetane rating of a suppliers fuel prior to having the tank filled?

 

As I commented on in my previous post, your supposition that dirty tanks/condensation may be a cause is a red herring. I only used fresh clean fuel direct from a distributor, accompanied by a certificate of conformity. I had fuel from four seperate deliveries, all of which caused excessive carbon build up. This same distributor also supplies at least two inland marinas.

 

Rob

[Nickhlx]

Hi Rob,

 

OK - maybe I am being a touch over cynical...

 

I do know though, that the specification of home heating fuels has been changing over the last couple of years. Partly down to costs driving suppliers to source fuels from the cheapest places they can to try to maintain their margins, and partly due to the wish to use less sulphur in fuels to minimise pollution - my parent's AGA is also a casualty of this effect and his central heating supplier has told him that whilst previously suppliers had been in the middle of the allowed spec, they are now at one end of it, thereby effectively selling a different spec of fuel, even though it is still called the "same".

 

I believe Webastos and some other makes are fine on 28 second home heating oil, which currently is priced at around 35p to 40p a litre - and possibly down to 30p/ltr depending on where you live / quantities delivered. Red diesel from the same suppliers is less than 50p/ltr which is still in the order of half of what is being charged on the canalside at the moment, although price is a digression.

 

So the fuel has changed, but I also hear your comment on usage being a factor as well.... If a heater is OK for "two hours use" I can't understand why it isn't OK to be run continuously, as surely it would have reached a steady state cindition within 10 or 20 minutes, let alone 2 hrs and then "need a rest" .

 

I will be conducting my own tests with 28 second and various types of red and white diesel, as well as times on half and full power, over the course of this season, so will be very interested to discover the outcome of all these variables for myself.

 

The topic continues to run !

 

Nick

[smileypete]

I do know though, that the specification of home heating fuels has been changing over the last couple of years. Partly down to costs driving suppliers to source fuels from the cheapest places they can to try to maintain their margins, and partly due to the wish to use less sulphur in fuels to minimise pollution - my parent's AGA is also a casualty of this effect and his central heating supplier has told him that whilst previously suppliers had been in the middle of the allowed spec, they are now at one end of it, thereby effectively selling a different spec of fuel, even though it is still called the "same".

 

I believe Webastos and some other makes are fine on 28 second home heating oil, which currently is priced at around 35p to 40p a litre - and possibly down to 30p/ltr depending on where you live / quantities delivered. Red diesel from the same suppliers is less than 50p/ltr which is still in the order of half of what is being charged on the canalside at the moment, although price is a digression.

 

So the fuel has changed, but I also hear your comment on usage being a factor as well.... If a heater is OK for "two hours use" I can't understand why it isn't OK to be run continuously, as surely it would have reached a steady state cindition within 10 or 20 minutes, let alone 2 hrs and then "need a rest" .

 

I will be conducting my own tests with 28 second and various types of red and white diesel, as well as times on half and full power, over the course of this season, so will be very interested to discover the outcome of all these variables for myself.

 

The topic continues to run !

 

This post last year might be worth a look: (clicky)

 

'A different engineer who services Webasto did tell me that whenever he gets a Webasto in for a 'de-coke' he alters the fan speed profile away from the original factory settings to make it more 'red' tolerant.'

 

cheers,

Pete.

[robkg]

This post last year might be worth a look: (clicky)

 

'A different engineer who services Webasto did tell me that whenever he gets a Webasto in for a 'de-coke' he alters the fan speed profile away from the original factory settings to make it more 'red' tolerant.'

 

cheers,

Pete.

Hi Pete,

During my long sorry saga with a Webasto Thermotop I encountered this suggestion. The purpose of altering the fan speed is to optimse the fuel to air ratio to obtain the cleanest burn.

Toby Hague (Keto Ltd) sent me the diagnostic equipment and a CO meter with instructions on how to do this. I tried the heater on all available settings with no improvement to the heaters ability to run.

Subsequently Toby visited the boat and repeated the exercise. He concluded that the CO readings were optimal and had always been with the original factory settings. One thing that I found interesting is that the fan speed could be heard significantly changing speed with changes in voltage, and may well be changing air/fuel ratio as a result. So I suspect that unless you can provide the heater with a constant voltage

(only possible with a voltage regulator of some kind) then your burn conditions will vary anyway.

 

Rob

[bottle]

So..............................the 'problem' with Webasto and possibly Erbaspacher is not fuel but voltage supply, mmmmmmm?

[Roger Gunkel]

So..............................the 'problem' with Webasto and possibly Erbaspacher is not fuel but voltage supply, mmmmmmm?

 

Sorry Keith, but not the case in those people that I know that have had major problems. Those that I know personally are almost exclusively with mains hookup and constant battery charge. Additionally, certainly Eber specify a fairly wide tolerance with the 12v supply.

 

The case against these heaters is quite clearly proven as not being suitable for the fuel available on the inland waterways. It is not a question of what individuals are doing wrong to make them fail, rather a case of how is it possible to keep them going inspite of the proven shortcomings. We don't have problems with the fuel in our engines and any argument about different sensitivities, or how they burn the fuel is totally irrelevant. If they don't run on the fuel available, they shouldn't be sold into this market, QED!

 

Webasto and the others have chosen to ignore the evidence of Paul Sylvan's legal victory and many other disgruntled customers, to capitalise on people's lack of knowledge and desire to have a highly efficient, small heating system to supply their boating requirements, whatever the evidence. Those who want to believe will always come up with tales of satisfied users and dirty, disgusting fuel suppliers, flat batteries and knowing winks, but the evidence and unequivocal court ruling says otherwise.

 

These units are very sophisticated and sensitive systems, that have been very successful in the commercial vehicle sector for many years. Unfortunately the current crop of water heating boilers have been adopted enthusiastically by the boating trade as the answer to space saving central heating units on boats. The reality of the environment has shown that they are not up to the job!

 

As with any sensitive equipment, it is possible to keep it working if you are prepared to put in a strict routine of very regular maintenance and servicing, totally ignoring the reccommended service intervals. They are not a domestic fit and forget heating system comparable with a house system. In my own experience, I have yet to meet anyone who uses one of these boilers successfully as a sole liveaboard 24/7 heating system using the service hours reccommendations of the manufacturers. I do however, know many casual users who profess satisfaction with part time use.

 

I'm sure the ashes will be constantly raked over, but I'm afraid the facts speak for themselves.

 

Roger

[chris w]

I appear to be one of the lucky ones whose Webasto Thermotop C is trouble-free.

 

I am not a liveaboard and, having fitted an hour meter to the Webasto last October, I now know that it is operated for around 80 hours per month very consistently. Since this is only weekend running at this time of the year (moored up in the marina), the unit is used for approximately 10 hours each weekend day that it is on. (ie: 20 hours for the whole weekend) That consists of 5 hours in the morning and the same in the evening.

 

I only buy fuel from marinas and never from fuel boats, whose environment, vibration and sales volume lead me to suspect that marina fuel is likely to be less contaminated although I have no actual proof either way.

 

I service my Webasto every 6 months or at after approximately 500 hours running. The amount of coke is not great after this period and I suspect that I could go a whole year on my usage basis. However, I will continue to service it every 6 months as I have had no problems with it whatsoever by so doing. Once one knows what to do, it's an hour's job.

 

Chris