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WEBASTO NIGHTMARE - COULD IT BE RED DIESEL ?


Paul Sylvan

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Gary, I am sure you are absolutely correct about the vast majority of Webasto/Eberspacher users that you have supplied not coming back with complaints, but then the vast majority of users are not liveaboards. As I have said previously, most users probably have their systems serviced every season irrespective of how many hours they have run and probably with no idea how many hours. As this is almost certainly well below the reccommended service time, then problems would be unlikely to show. When talking to those who run high hours, namely liveaboards, there seem to be problems with considerable numbers of them. Those people on this forum who run high hours with little problem, seem to have needed to run on alternative fuels, use additives or run on white diesel. As Gary has shown, Eberspacher's spec is for fuel to white diesel standard and Webasto have already shown their hand. Unfortunately for the manufacturers, following the new rulings, red diesel is not going away and will continue to be the only fuel on the waterways.

 

There are a number of perfectly sensible suggestions from members about filters, blocked fuel lines, cetane boosters etc. etc., but none of these are Paul's responsibility. The whole point is that the system as supplied and fitted does not work properly with the fuel available and the suppliers must either rectify this or return the purchase price and costs. Paul is absolutely right to take legal action and involve trading standards as this has been an ongoing problem for some years and will continue to be so if suppliers are not forced to be open and honest, giving potential purchasers informed choice!

 

I am amazed that Paul is not being supported by everyone on this matter as he is the agreived party with every justification. Unless we can all see that and something is done about it, there is going to be a growing number of new liveaboards coming on this forum having ended up with the same problems and frustrations. There are over 5000 members on this forum and in my opinion, this is precisely the sort of issue we should be supporting for the benefit of all.

 

Roger Gunkel

Edited by Roger Gunkel
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A little secret about why boatbuilders use Eberspachers, Webasto, Mikuni, Alde etc.

 

It's nothing to do with suitability for any purpose it's cost and simplicity and available space. If you move away from them a lot of boatbuilders get out of their expertise comfort zone rapidly and costs and complications increase dramatically.

 

No one is kidding anybody about the reliability of these things in a domestic enviroment, you might remember back in 2004 when at the London boatshow I went and asked all the major manafacturers which of their units were suitable for true Domestic use in the way that you would expect the like of a land based unit costing under £1000.00 to be used?

 

Well the answer from all but one was silence in fact a few made it clear their units were intended for "recreational use" the one that said you could expect near that kind of performance was Kabola with their unit that was very close to a domestic unit but twice the price, but they did not mention the service costs or the very expensive repair costs if you don't have it serviced regularly.

 

The truth of the matter is most of these units are not intended for domestic style use maybe the manufacturers should state that they aren't more actively and the boatbuilders should explore the options available more honestly with customers.

Edited by Gary Peacock
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Then this beggars a question.

 

Which of the domestic closed chamber units (gas or oil) might be suitable?, a WIckes combi special?

 

Probably daft I know, but if the stuff being fitted is not fit for purpose then ban it. I drive a truck with Eperspracher, but it only runs when normal engine heater circuit is not available. Maybe runs 300 hrs per year.

 

1/2 the problem is the things are never serviced. Always took the oil pot out of the Aga and dumped it in caustic soda solution, and gave it a good scrubbing. SAme with the Flues.

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A bit off subject but the techno nerds might find it useful.

 

If you click HERE you can view a video that will give you some idea of how a pressure jet boiler works.

 

The video is a bit hard going at first because it is really intended to be a instructional introduction to servicing the unit.

 

The unit shown is an Hurricane Heater from International Thermal Research and is one of the units we now fit.

 

Putting the cards on the table we have had a few problems with these units but non relating to fuel and all of which have been resolved satisfactorily.

 

The basic operation principle applies to all boilers of this nature but the Hurricane Heater is larger and simpler to work with than many of the similar units.

 

The other big customer advantages being the ease of DIY service.

Thanks Gary. We are a Hurricane dealer and I did not know this video was available. I have been following the Webasto and Eber....(Espar here) problems with great interest and have seen a lot of the same problems. We have had a few small problems with Hurricane but those have been in the area of information rather than equipment. It is certainly no less expensive than the others for initial installation but the owner will find it less expensive over the long run. One of those reasons is the maintainance ability for DIY owners.

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Its very refreshing Gary to have such an up front and honest posting from a respected boat builder. I am probably not alone in thinking that is probably what we have all come to expect from you. Lets hope a few others can be equally as open.

 

Sideways, its also great to hear a dealer saying that he has heard many of the same problems.

 

Roger Gunkel

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WEBASTO NIGHTMARE - COULD IT BE RED DIESEL ?

 

My wife and I bought a new boat from The New Boat Company in October, 2006, to live on. It came with a Webasto heater which we were told by sales staff would run on red diesel. We believed them at the time but now we’re not so sure.

We suffered continual breakdowns with our Webasto heater for over 12 months and each time the problem was the same, and required the same solution i.e. a new burner unit (the burner would get coked up to the point that the heater would not restart after its first 35 minute heating cycle). The New Boat Company failed to rectify the ongoing faults so in October, 2007, (8 long months after the problems first appeared) we contacted Webasto in Germany. They forwarded our email to Webasto UK who took over the investigation. After checking the installation and replacing the burner unit (AGAIN! This was No. 4) Webasto UK, conducted a month long experiment running the heater on white diesel. At the end of the experiment, No. 3 burner, which had been run on red diesel only, was compared with No. 4 burner (white diesel only). There was a difference. What a surprise! The burner run on red diesel had an extra yellow/white deposit mixed in with the black carbon deposits on the inside of the burner chamber. Webasto UK sent us a final report in which they stated that ‘…the most probable cause for the high build up of carbon and reduced burner life is due to an excessive presence of sulphur and/or other unknown properties within the fuel and/or tank, and is not in any way related to a Webasto product or installation issue’. That seemed to be the end of it as far as Webasto was concerned - we were being told that it was the fuel that was faulty not the unit. But how could this be? The boat had been built with the heater plumbed directly into the red diesel fuel tank and we had only ever filled up our tank with red diesel from a reputable marina outlet . We smelt a rat and decided to look further.

We contacted the Department for Transport and were told there was a considerable difference between standard red diesel BS 2869 (also called dyed gas oil), and white road diesel BSEN 590. The main difference is the sulphur levels. Webasto UK had chosen to use white road diesel (low sulphur) for their experiment on our burner. How convenient! particularly in view of the fact that they indicate excessive sulphur as the problem.

We began to see that there is a lot of misinformation around concerning red diesel and how it differs from white diesel. This was highlighted to us when the Managing Director of The New Boat Company told us that red diesel was just white diesel with dye, clearly at odds with what the Department for Transport and the British Marine Federation, who we had also made enquires to, told us.

Still without a properly functioning heater and now in the grip of winter, and still with no solution in sight, we began to feel decidedly abandoned not only by Webasto but also by The New Boat Company. With nowhere else to go we continued to dig. And this is what we found out.

Many years ago red and white diesel had the same high sulphur levels and were identical except for the red dyes used to distinguish the off road diesel for tax purposes. Over the years, however, legislation has required a lower sulphur content for white road vehicle diesel and the levels of sulphur have been dramatically reduced to, now, less than 50 parts per million (P.P.M.) for white road diesel. In contrast, red off road diesel continued to contain its high levels of sulphur, up to 2000 P.P.M. until January 2008 at which time it was reduced to no more than 1000 P.P.M. So, until recently, according to our calculations, standard red diesel has been able to contain up to 40 times more sulphur than white road diesel. Could this be the same excessive sulphur that was described in the Webasto report? And if so, is red diesel really a suitable fuel for long term use with Webasto heaters?

 

BK Marine (a Webasto agent) who bench-tested our heater unit seemed to support the above when they told us that if we ran the heater on Kerosene it would be fine. This statement seemed to imply that red diesel might not be quite as suitable a fuel to use for Webasto heaters as we’d been told and it was certainly in contradiction to the information given to us by The New Boat Company when they said that the heater ran on red diesel. BK Marine further stated that our Webasto problem was a ‘one in a million’. Hmmm…

In case we weren’t just the ‘one in a million’ we decided to search the Canal World Forum for other heater problems and, amongst numerous relevant postings, came across Roger Gunkel’s ‘Red Diesel…At last the facts!…’ dated July 2006, and then his other posts relating to his heater experiences. Our stories seemed so similar that it got us wondering if our heater problems and the continuing roundabout of buck passing and speculation were being echoed elsewhere on the inland waterways system.

We never really did buy into the ‘you’re one-in-a-million’ lie. What a joke!.

 

All the Webasto heater problems we have heard about, to date, and there are many, seem to relate to boaters who are living aboard. Could it be that it is the daily use of the heaters particularly in winter time that shows up weaknesses in the ability of these heaters to perform for a reasonable period of time on red diesel.

 

After a year of heating nightmares we have now given up on the Webasto and installed another manufacturers unit which has been guaranteed to run effectively on red diesel.

We are warm again.

 

We have asked The New Boat Company to remove the Webasto unit and refund the appropriate monies on the basis that it was not fit-for-purpose on our vessel.

They have declined this request.

We have now commenced legal action.

Whatever the outcome we hope that some much needed transparency will be brought to this slippery world of boat heating systems and the appropriateness of using red diesel for high use consumers.

 

We would be interested to hear other boaters’ experiences with Webasto heaters and their reliability (or not) when run on red diesel, particularly where they are the main source of heating and get considerable/ongoing use.

Comments appreciated.

 

Paul Sylvan

 

 

 

Hi!

 

At Last some one else is having the same issues. I thought I was starting to lose the will with our Webasto heating system.... We are having the same problems and to date over the last month had to replace the Glow-pin, gasket, the burner its self and now the Burner tube this is after we had the system declooked and cleaned out. It ran okay for about a week and then just stopped working and 'just died of death'. We too have been in touch with BK Marine who supplied this to our new boat via The New Boat Co, and amongst other marines all said the same in relation to the system not agreeing to the use of Red Diesel so I strongly agree with your findings.

 

Are you able to let me know which heating system you have replaced the webasto with. Im not sure how much we can take with it as it never seems to improve.

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Hi!

 

At Last some one else is having the same issues. I thought I was starting to lose the will with our Webasto heating system.... We are having the same problems and to date over the last month had to replace the Glow-pin, gasket, the burner its self and now the Burner tube this is after we had the system declooked and cleaned out. It ran okay for about a week and then just stopped working and 'just died of death'. We too have been in touch with BK Marine who supplied this to our new boat via The New Boat Co, and amongst other marines all said the same in relation to the system not agreeing to the use of Red Diesel so I strongly agree with your findings.

 

Are you able to let me know which heating system you have replaced the webasto with. Im not sure how much we can take with it as it never seems to improve.

 

Hi Mike,

 

See you have only just joined, so welcome to this forum and hopefuly you will not feel isolated with the problems from now on.

 

My Eberspacher problems were virtually identical to Paul's with the Webasto (and many others it seems) Our solution was to install a solid fuel stove, which has supplied us with all the heat we need, with no maintenance or reliability problems and at about one third of the cost of running diesel.

I now realise why nearly all liveaboards have them. Have you done the same as Paul and asked for your money back?

 

 

Roger Gunkel

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I took my Webasto completely to bits today as it is a year old and I felt it would be good to decoke it (if necessary). I am not a liveaboard but the Webasto gets a lot of use.

 

Surprisingly, although the burner chamber did need the carbon cleaning out, it was nowhere as bad as I had expected. The coking consisted of a light amount of small particles of black/grey, brittle carbon between the heating fins. It came out really easily when prodded with a small screwdriver and was not tenacious at all. The glow plug and flame unit were very clean and only needed the smallest amount of attention. The glow plug itself was virtually pristine.

 

I put it all back together and it fired up first time with no problem.

 

I ordered a gasket set (£5) from BK Marine who are the main distributors for Webasto in this country. Whilst on the phone to them, I asked them about the use of red diesel. The main guy (Jason) told me that there is NO problem with using red diesel in Webasto's and that he sells 700 units a year into the marine market; his biggest market. If there were a problem he would be out of business.

 

He told me that the problem is with the QUALITY of SOME red diesel (he cited boats' selling diesel as an example of sometimes dubious quality). He said that if one buys normal red diesel (not 28sec heating oil disguised as red diesel) from a reputable supplier there should be no problems whatsoever. I have to say that after a year of substantial use, my own Webasto is testament to what he said.

 

He also said that another issue is that some owners don't have the unit serviced regularly and are then surprised when it breaks down. He assumed they have their domestic (home) boiler serviced regularly so why are they surprised that the Webasto also needs a service. He told me that for non-liveaboards, a service every 2 years in reality should be fine. Again, my unit is a testament to that. For liveaboards, once a year. He also said that, as per the instructions, the Webasto needs a period of cooling each day. It cannot be run 24/7.

 

Chris

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I took my Webasto completely to bits today as it is a year old and I felt it would be good to decoke it (if necessary). I am not a liveaboard but the Webasto gets a lot of use.

 

Surprisingly, although the burner chamber did need the carbon cleaning out, it was nowhere as bad as I had expected. The coking consisted of a light amount of small particles of black/grey, brittle carbon between the heating fins. It came out really easily when prodded with a small screwdriver and was not tenacious at all. The glow plug and flame unit were very clean and only needed the smallest amount of attention. The glow plug itself was virtually pristine.

 

I put it all back together and it fired up first time with no problem.

 

I ordered a gasket set (£5) from BK Marine who are the main distributors for Webasto in this country. Whilst on the phone to them, I asked them about the use of red diesel. The main guy (Jason) told me that there is NO problem with using red diesel in Webasto's and that he sells 700 units a year into the marine market; his biggest market. If there were a problem he would be out of business.

 

He told me that the problem is with the QUALITY of SOME red diesel (he cited boats' selling diesel as an example of sometimes dubious quality). He said that if one buys normal red diesel (not 28sec heating oil disguised as red diesel) from a reputable supplier there should be no problems whatsoever. I have to say that after a year of substantial use, my own Webasto is testament to what he said.

 

He also said that another issue is that some owners don't have the unit serviced regularly and are then surprised when it breaks down. He assumed they have their domestic (home) boiler serviced regularly so why are they surprised that the Webasto also needs a service. He told me that for non-liveaboards, a service every 2 years in reality should be fine. Again, my unit is a testament to that. For liveaboards, once a year. He also said that, as per the instructions, the Webasto needs a period of cooling each day. It cannot be run 24/7.

 

Chris

 

Hi Chris, do you have some kind of workshop manual for doing this service or is it relatively simple and straight forward enough to tackle without one??? Cheers --- tosher

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Hi Chris, do you have some kind of workshop manual for doing this service or is it relatively simple and straight forward enough to tackle without one??? Cheers --- tosher

 

I don't have a workshop manual; I just dismantled the thing. It's quite logical and not at all complicated. Although I didn't take photos at each stage, it might be a good idea to do this. To be honest, it's just a question of undoing the screws and the unit comes apart. There are one or two moments when one has to think a little - like how to release the glowpin - but it's definitely not rocket science.

 

I saved the couple of litres of fluid that came out of the header tank when I undid the hoses on the water pump, and simply refilled the header tank with the same fluid afterwards. I also dismantled the water pump to check there was no crud in it; there wasn't.

 

When you fire it up again, there will be quite a bit of white smoke. This is because, inevitably, some fluid spills on to the "asbestos" covering around the Webasto's exhaust, when the water pump connections are undone. The smoke is simply hot anti-freeze evaporating off and disappears within 20-30 minutes. (The "water" in the system is actually a 50/50 mixture of anti-freeze and water. This gives temperature protection, of course, in winter but also facilitates anti-corrosion protection all year round).

 

Chris

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I don't have a workshop manual; I just dismantled the thing. It's quite logical and not at all complicated. Although I didn't take photos at each stage, it might be a good idea to do this. To be honest, it's just a question of undoing the screws and the unit comes apart. There are one or two moments when one has to think a little - like how to release the glowpin - but it's definitely not rocket science.

 

I saved the couple of litres of fluid that came out of the header tank when I undid the hoses on the water pump, and simply refilled the header tank with the same fluid afterwards. I also dismantled the water pump to check there was no crud in it; there wasn't.

 

When you fire it up again, there will be quite a bit of white smoke. This is because, inevitably, some fluid spills on to the "asbestos" covering around the Webasto's exhaust, when the water pump connections are undone. The smoke is simply hot anti-freeze evaporating off and disappears within 20-30 minutes. (The "water" in the system is actually a 50/50 mixture of anti-freeze and water. This gives temperature protection, of course, in winter but also facilitates anti-corrosion protection all year round).

 

Chris

 

Thanks Chris, will tackle it myself when the time comes. tosher

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Chris,

 

Your comments regarding BK marine are interesting, but I find it quite disturbing to hear from you that the main guy is blaming the quality of the fuel yet again. I am getting absolutely fed up with hearing suppliers trotting out the same old B******S about boats who sell diesel thats dodgy, people disposing of old oil in there tanks then selling it to boaters and various unscrupulous characters causing the problems. The problems encountered by the liveaboards on this forum, including myself, have been inspite of being meticulous with our fuel supplies. If BK marine had sold 700 units to liveaboards, I am sure they would have been out of business by now! Is he prepared to guarantee in writing that units supplied by him will continue to run on red diesel to the manufacturers specified service intervals? I doubt it.

 

You mentioned your own unit having minimal carbon build up. Do you have an accurate record of the number of hours it has run. As you said, you are not a liveaboard and it would be useful to know the number of hours you have used in comparison with the one year service interval suggested by BK Marine for a liveaboard. Assuming 5 months at 10 hours per day for the Winter and 7 months averaging a couple of hours per day for hot water and occasional heating, that would ammount to around 1900 hours. Naturally if someone is living on board 24 hours a day the total hours would be considerably higher. On my Eberspacher, I never achieved more than about 700 hundred hours before failure and never got anywhere near a service interval.

 

The issue is not about the many boaters who use them occasionally (including me on my smaller sea boat), but about liveaboards innocently investing thousands in a 'central heating system' for their home, when it clearly is not.

 

On a more positive note, I am very encouraged by your dismantling of your Webasto and self service, as I am intending to do the same with my Eber as its now out of guarantee.

 

Roger Gunkel

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Roger

 

Rather than theorising on what might or might not be happening, why don't you call the guy at BK Marine (Jason: 01926 811501) and put your concerns to him directly. Ask him abut liveaboards, service intervals and diesel quality and highlght the issues that some people have experienced.

 

He was very insistent, that with proper quality red diesel and a regular service, there is absolutely no issue. They are the Webasto UK main distributors for Inland Waterways and so, if there is a legitimate problem of which he may not be aware, it behoves us to let them know.

 

Chris

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Roger

 

Rather than theorising on what might or might not be happening, why don't you call the guy at BK Marine (Jason: 01926 811501) and put your concerns to him directly. Ask him abut liveaboards, service intervals and diesel quality and highlght the issues that some people have experienced.

 

He was very insistent, that with proper quality red diesel and a regular service, there is absolutely no issue. They are the Webasto UK main distributors for Inland Waterways and so, if there is a legitimate problem of which he may not be aware, it behoves us to let them know.

 

Chris

 

Hi Chris,

 

A number of points from your response to bring up.

 

I am an Eber rather than Webasto owner, but it would be of interest to me to ring BK Marine next week to discuss the issue with him. I will report back any conversation.

 

I feel very strongly that any ‘theorising’ is coming from those who have no direct experience of the problems. Those of us with serious problems have gone to great pains to ensure that our fuel only comes from reputable suppliers and have called in manufacturers and suppliers to sort out the problems with no satisfactory results. Other FACTS are that correspondance with fuel manufacturers has shown conclusively that red diesel has a cetaine rating and sulphur content level that does not meet the specified requirements of either Webasto or Eberspacher. It is also undisputed that both systems will run on red diesel, but for a far shorter period than with the specified fuel. One other highly significant fact that nobody seems to have mentioned, is that nobody with major problems has had similar problems with their engines, running from the same fuel source. Modern diesel engines will run perfectly well on red diesel as should any system sold to run on the available fuel. The issue here is that the heating systems supplied do not run on red diesel to the specified service intervals and that fact is not available to prospective purchasers. Furthermore, when the problem does arise it is hidden behind a smokescreen of suggestion over fuel, installation, lots of satisfied customers etc.

 

I also am still waiting after 3 years, for anyone who has had no problems, to supply information on the actual, not estimated hours that they run their units between services. How about you , do you have that information available for yours?

 

Regards

Roger Gunkel

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Hi Chris,

 

Modern diesel engines will run perfectly well on red diesel as should any system sold to run on the available fuel. The issue here is that the heating systems supplied do not run on red diesel to the specified service intervals and that fact is not available to prospective purchasers. Furthermore, when the problem does arise it is hidden behind a smokescreen of suggestion over fuel, installation, lots of satisfied customers etc.

 

You do understand, I trust, That Webs and Ebers burn diesel in a very different way to an IC engine?

 

I also am still waiting after 3 years, for anyone who has had no problems, to supply information on the actual, not estimated hours that they run their units between services. How about you , do you have that information available for yours?

 

Regards

Roger Gunkel

 

Actual hours - no. Estimated 1000 hours in one year. Due to the surprisingly low level of carbon (and based on what BK Marine told me) I could have gone another year before needing a service. So say a service is needed at least every 2000 hours. For a liveaboard that might mean a service every 3 to 4 months. How many liveaboards have their Webasto serviced 3 or 4 times a year? Therein probably lies the problem coupled with, in addition, some users buying poor quality fuel.

 

Chris

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I also am still waiting after 3 years, for anyone who has had no problems, to supply information on the actual, not estimated hours that they run their units between services. How about you , do you have that information available for yours?

 

Ok so ita a Mikuni MX40 not one of the others but it works in the same way, some figures.

Age 5 years

Use daily minimum 3 hours ( comes on at 4am to heat the water)

Minimum hours per year 1095

Allowing for evening running in autumn and spring actual hours run in the region of 1350 a year

Full strip down service every year in October ( missed last years and had O ring failure as a result)

Faults in 5 years

5 glow plugs due to spike from battery charger

1 air pump due to failed O ring leaking water on to it

 

Thats about it. Yes it does get some carbon build up but the secret is to clean it out often, just as if you use a car in bad conditions you service it more often.

 

Oh and its not my main heating in winter that is an Old Dutch drip feed stove.

 

Julian

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Our Webasto started playing up in January at 8 months old on a liveaboard. It would just go out. It was difficult to get someone to look at it. The best response being that if I removed it from the boat, took it 30 miles they ould test it on the bench. Finally at Easter John from FC Marine came with his laptop which came up with 'not possible to communicate'. So he took it off and brought it back a few days later.

 

Diagnosis showed that it had done 1004 hours which seemed right and 1074 starts which didn't. The reason for the sudden stopping was a faulty glowpin and, as the burner unit was quite choked, he replaced that. The old burner unit had a lot of light coke deposits around the inside which scraped out quite easily. The glowpin, which was faulty of course, was clean. He remarked that a catalyser was fitted in the fuel line. Units supplied by BK apparently don't have these. The boatbuilders told me later that this is a new addition to cope with high sulphur diesel.

 

He also said that the Webasto is not intended for liveaboard use and that it is difficult for him to get claims accepted if Webasto know that was its use. He also said that normal service intervals is 1500 hours. His recommendation is to get a spare unit - they are selling for up to £485 on E-bay though he warned me off the rebuilt Polish units being offered at £195.

 

My boatbuilders, Sabre, are surprised by this and have promised a refund of the £235 cost of repair. They tell me the unit has a two year warranty even for a liveaboard and that I should approach them first if I have another failure.

 

I have a copy of Webasto service procedures if anyone needs it. I don't know how to post it here so you'll have to e-mail me.

 

Regards

Pete

Edited by pearley
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You do understand, I trust, That Webs and Ebers burn diesel in a very different way to an IC engine?

 

Yes of course I realise that, but I am refering to continued mention of bad fuels, water in the fuel, general contamination etc. In my past exoerience, bad fuel will often lead to irregular running or stopping of a diesel engine and those people who are having the serious problems on new boats with new systems are having them inspite of being very careful with their fuel supplies.

 

Actual hours - no. Estimated 1000 hours in one year. Due to the surprisingly low level of carbon (and based on what BK Marine told me) I could have gone another year before needing a service. So say a service is needed at least every 2000 hours. For a liveaboard that might mean a service every 3 to 4 months. How many liveaboards have their Webasto serviced 3 or 4 times a year? Therein probably lies the problem coupled with, in addition, some users buying poor quality fuel.

 

Chris

 

 

I really don't want to be pedantic about this, but to come back to your comment about theories, we are back to your esimate of hours anf theorising that it may have run for another 1000 hours! Well I can also theorise that it may well have not. You are also theorising that some owners are buying bad fuel, whereas I and many others with problems would take exception to that, having taken pains to ensure that only reliable sources are used. My own supplier threatened to take legal action against Eberspacher after they had suggested to me that the fuel was at fault.

 

If your suggestion is that a service for a liveaboard may well be 3-4 months if that equates to 2000 hours, then I would whole heartedly agree. In my case I would have been delighted to reach 2000 hours. I think you will find that Paul and ohers with major problems on new systems would also have been delighted with 2000 hours service intervals. That of course then brings up another hidden problem for potential new owners. If you are running a new system under guarantee, it will require servicing by a main agent. If that is being carried out 3-4 times a year, then it would be costing in excess of £1000 pa just to have it serviced, not much different to buying a new unit every year. This would be unacceptable in a domestic setup and backs up what a few suppliers are now starting to say, that these units are not suitable as a full time use central heating system. So lets have that clearly up front to the customer.

 

Roger

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I really don't want to be pedantic about this, but to come back to your comment about theories, we are back to your esimate of hours anf theorising that it may have run for another 1000 hours!

 

Of course, I agree with you, I have no idea if it would have lasted another year - my judgement is based solely on how lightly carboned it was after one year. Anyway, I would always service each year regardless.

 

If you are running a new system under guarantee, it will require servicing by a main agent. If that is being carried out 3-4 times a year, then it would be costing in excess of £1000 pa just to have it serviced, not much different to buying a new unit every year.

Roger

 

It will only require servicing by a main agent for the first year while its under warranty. After that, one can do it oneself (certainly for the Webasto as its a doddle - I have no experience of the Eber). If one can't do it oneself, then for sure it's going to cost you money. It should be clear to anyone that a liveaboard will be using the thing at least 3-4 times as much as a recreational boater and therefore the unit will need servicing at least 3-4 times as often. For the Webasto, if one does it oneself, the only service cost is a replacement gasket set at £5.

 

Having done it once and having had to work out what to unscrew etc this first time, I am confident that on future occasions the actual servicing will take no longer than 30 minutes with another 30 minutes for the time needed to unscrew, and afterwards replace, the unit on the bulkhead and drain/fill the header tank.

 

One can buy a complete Webasto main body unit on Ebay for £195 so indeed that may be cheaper than having your unit serviced if you are not going to do it oneself. Though why a service should cost more than an hour's labour for an "expert" is beyond me.

 

As I suggested a couple of days ago, call Webasto and put your points to them. Ask them what the recommended service interval actually is.

 

Chris

 

Chris

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Of course, I agree with you, I have no idea if it would have lasted another year - my judgement is based solely on how lightly carboned it was after one year. Anyway, I would always service each year regardless.

 

 

 

It will only require servicing by a main agent for the first year while its under warranty. After that, one can do it oneself (certainly for the Webasto as its a doddle - I have no experience of the Eber). If one can't do it oneself, then for sure it's going to cost you money. It should be clear to anyone that a liveaboard will be using the thing at least 3-4 times as much as a recreational boater and therefore the unit will need servicing at least 3-4 times as often. For the Webasto, if one does it oneself, the only service cost is a replacement gasket set at £5.

 

Having done it once and having had to work out what to unscrew etc this first time, I am confident that on future occasions the actual servicing will take no longer than 30 minutes with another 30 minutes for the time needed to unscrew, and afterwards replace, the unit on the bulkhead and drain/fill the header tank.

 

One can buy a complete Webasto main body unit on Ebay for £195 so indeed that may be cheaper than having your unit serviced if you are not going to do it oneself. Though why a service should cost more than an hour's labour for an "expert" is beyond me.

 

As I suggested a couple of days ago, call Webasto and put your points to them. Ask them what the recommended service interval actually is.

 

Chris

 

Chris

 

Chris,

 

I think that although we are at different ends of the spectrum, you as a problem free ‘occasional user’ and myself as a liveaboard, are in fact saying basically the same things from differing viewpoints.

 

Form a liveaboard viewpoint there are certain facts that I think should be available to all who are looking for a full time diesel heating system for an inland waterways based boat. As I see them, they are:-

 

1) The only readily available fuel at present and in the foreseeable future is red diesel

2) Eberspacher and Webasto and possibly other similarly functioning products specify a fuel which is basically white diesel.

3) Red diesel, according to the major oil companies, has a cetane rating which is lower and a sulphur content which is higher than the spec for white diesel. This will lead to a lower burning temperature and higher carbon and sulphur residual products, culminating in a faster degradation of the running hours of the heater units.

4) These types of heaters will run on red diesel but must be serviced at much shorter intervals than currently specified by the suppliers. Get an agreement on service times with the supplier in hours.

5) Servicing inside the guarantee period must be by a main agent. Could apply to first year only depending on make.

6) It is vital to keep a check of hours used and service to hours agreed with your supplier.

7) Be prepared for service intervals of around 1000 hours. If you are running 24 hours per day in winter, this would equate to a service every 42 days.

8) Self servicing is fairly straightforward, but don’t invalidate your guarantee and make sure you can source spares.

 

If the above is not what you require from a liveaboard heating system , then look at gas or solid fuel alternatives, or systems that burn diesel in ways similar to a domestic boiler.

 

Roger Gunkel

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Chris,

 

2) Eberspacher and Webasto and possibly other similarly functioning products specify a fuel which is basically white diesel.

That's not correct for Webasto - they specify red diesel or white diesel. BK Marine told me this week that red diesel is definitely and categorically OK for the Webasto. What isn't OK is lower quality heating oil as sold by some working boats and some disreputable marinas (his words).

4) These types of heaters will run on red diesel but must be serviced at much shorter intervals than currently specified by the suppliers.

Without talking to them, you don't know what the recommended service interval is, so how can you state this?

 

8) Self servicing is fairly straightforward....

 

For the Webasto that's very true but for the Eberspacher, received wisdom is that it is not so easy. i have no idea why though as I have no experience of Ebers.

 

Chris

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Hi,

 

As I said before, if I had trouble running a Webasto on red diesel, I'd try a cetane boosting additive.

 

It could lengthen service intervals and improve efficiency.

 

Even if it adds a penny a litre to the cost of fuel, there doesn't need to be much % gain on either alone to make it well worthwhile.

 

If you spend another £2K on something guaranteed to run on any diesel, you'll never recoup the extra cost if the Webasto will run fine using an additive.

 

Other factors to look out for apart from fuel include intake/exhaust back pressure, supply voltage, and proper shutdown.

 

cheers,

Pete.

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i had a webasto fail one of our our customers boats we took it down to foxton on bk marines instructions ,and was told it cant be done under waranty as it as been fitted to a liveaboard so many starts and so many hours run. we had it fixed new burner i think but neither foxton or bk mentioned anything about the red diesel use but told me that they wont honour any warranty work at all to liveaboards,

we now fit ebers and have had no problems with them .

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i had a webasto fail one of our our customers boats we took it down to foxton on bk marines instructions ,and was told it cant be done under waranty as it as been fitted to a liveaboard so many starts and so many hours run. we had it fixed new burner i think but neither foxton or bk mentioned anything about the red diesel use but told me that they wont honour any warranty work at all to liveaboards,

we now fit ebers and have had no problems with them .

 

Our last boat had a Mikuni which let us down last Spring after really very few hours use over three years. Cost nearly £400 for an exchange unit. Previous boats had both Eberspacher and Webasto. Both gave trouble and cost plenty in servicing and repairs. Kingfisher has changed from Webasto to Eberspacher. Narrowcraft have changed from Eberspacher to Webasto. Seems to me that none of these units is very reliable for whatever reason. My question is now we are now equipped with a Webasto with a separate fuel tank could the problems of the Red Diesel be helped by mixing paraffin with the heater's fuel supply? I suspect our hours of use to be only about 300 a year so the cost would be no great deal.

Edited by Billypownall
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My question is now we are now equipped with a Webasto with a separate fuel tank could the problems of the Red Diesel be helped by mixing paraffin with the heater's fuel supply? I suspect our hours of use to be only about 300 a year so the cost would be no great deal.

 

The answer is blindingly obvious......................... call BK Marine, the main distributors for Webasto.......... and ask them.

 

Chris

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