Buying a boat

[Chris J W]

Not walking away got reduction in price that suits us we know what we need to have done but the current owner needs to get the paperwork in order its £50 to get builder to do it the boat was built 2000 so it has to be covered by RCD paperwork I have the CIN number its not marked on craft. I cannot pay to get it done as not the owner.

 

Good Luck, then, now that you've got some of the initial bumps out of the way. Let us know how the rest of the saga goes.

 

[Shamu1]

Is the vendor the builder?

 

no he built it for the owner

[Chris Pink]

Which is precisely what any broker worth his/her salt should do - a proper paper trail is so important, and checks to ensure that the boat is "free of encumbrances" when you take possession - i.e any mortgage has been repaid etc. There is no formal register of ownership and no formal system for "HP" checks as there is with a vehicle. I am amazed that many private sales of what is probably the second biggest purchase most people will ever make in their lives (presuming the first to be a property) take place with no such diligence, but they do.

 

I think the reality is that encumbered boats are so rare and it is so much easier to hide a car that looks like every other car. I am not saying that the buyer should not beware but rather that you should always buy something from a person you can trust. If the price is too good to be true it probably is. I, for one, am very happy to own something that doesn't have to have paperwork hanging out it's scuppers.

[Broughton 2]

I have a copy of the RCD document giving the CIN no but surveyor picked up it is not marked on the transom

 

 

 

A bit off-topic but, be kind to a beginner and say exactly where the transom is on a narrowboat?

 

Jim Shead definition:- "A flat, often D-shaped panel forming the stem of certain types of wooden craft."

 

Is it the bulkhead immediately forward of the swim? I have manufacturer markings on forward wall of the weed hatch and also on the skin cooler.

 

 

Alan

[Dominic M]

I think the reality is that encumbered boats are so rare and it is so much easier to hide a car that looks like every other car. I am not saying that the buyer should not beware but rather that you should always buy something from a person you can trust. If the price is too good to be true it probably is. I, for one, am very happy to own something that doesn't have to have paperwork hanging out it's scuppers.

Not at all, Chris. Many boats are "encumbered", most commonly with a marine mortgage. If you buy a boat and the vendor cannot produce a Bill of Sale, or if he bought it new, a Builder's Certificate showing that the boat has been fully paid for, you have to ask why. The mortgage companies hold such paperwork as security. It may well be that when purchasing the boat the vendor simply did not know about or ask for such paperwork, and the vendor or builder never issued it, but it would be rash to proceed without checking further. And there are people out there who have tried to sell boats privately and avoid repaying the mortgage.

 

Many boats may also be "encumbered" by the fact that there is more than one owner, and they have fallen out - an estranged couple would be a prime example - and one party tries to cash in without the other's knowledge.

 

A third encumbrance could be that the owner has died and a relative seeks to sell it whilst it is still a matter of probate.

 

In all the above examples the hapless buyer could find themselves losing both their money and the boat they thought was theirs.

 

It would be wonderful if all boats could be bought and sold on pure trust. Sadly that is not the real world.

 

Dominic

 

Edited to add: Also, if or when you come to sell your boat, the lack of a paper history will reduce its saleability.

Edited March 5, 2008 by Dominic M

[Chris Pink]

Also, if or when you come to sell your boat, the lack of a paper history will reduce its saleability.

 

O dear, I was given one of mine and the other I bought off a very good friend. Should i start to worry, do you think?

 

 

And if, as you say, the mortgage companies are holding bills of sale as security then more fool them because there is no way of establishing absolute title, bills of sale can be forged, dates falsified. 2 bills of sale, both saying contradictory things, how are you going to establish which is true?

 

Unless the boat is on the Small Ships Register, it's much the same as if you came up to me and bought a piece of furniture.

 

I have said this before; anyone who gives many £1,000s to someone they cannot trust is daft.

[Dominic M]

O dear, I was given one of mine and the other I bought off a very good friend. Should i start to worry, do you think?

And if, as you say, the mortgage companies are holding bills of sale as security then more fool them because there is no way of establishing absolute title, bills of sale can be forged, dates falsified. 2 bills of sale, both saying contradictory things, how are you going to establish which is true?

 

Unless the boat is on the Small Ships Register, it's much the same as if you came up to me and bought a piece of furniture.

 

I have said this before; anyone who gives many £1,000s to someone they cannot trust is daft.

The Small Ships Register is voluntary and not proof of ownership.

 

No, I don't think you should worry at all. But you must recognise that most people don't get their boat either given to them or buy from a trustworthy friend. Did you declare the gift for tax by the way?

[carlt]

A bit off-topic but, be kind to a beginner and say exactly where the transom is on a narrowboat?

 

Jim Shead definition:- "A flat, often D-shaped panel forming the stem of certain types of wooden craft."

 

Is it the bulkhead immediately forward of the swim? I have manufacturer markings on forward wall of the weed hatch and also on the skin cooler.

Alan

There you go! It's a specific type of back end.

 

Round sterned nbs don't have them.

Edited March 5, 2008 by carlt

[Lady Muck]

Edited to add: Also, if or when you come to sell your boat, the lack of a paper history will reduce its saleability.

 

The marine mortgage peeps said this to me too.

[Chris Pink]

Did you declare the gift for tax by the way?

 

No but I declared the chocolate orange in the bottom of my christmas stocking.

 

It still doesn't follow that a bill of sale is proof of ownership (excuse the pun).

 

conveyancing for boats? Business idea anyone?

Edited March 5, 2008 by Chris Pink

[Dominic M]

No but I declared the chocolate orange in the bottom of my christmas stocking.

 

It still doesn't follow that a bill of sale is proof of ownership (excuse the pun).

 

conveyancing for boats? Business idea anyone?

I offer that service already primarily aimed at buyers in the private market - click, although my core business is brokerage.

 

A Bill of Sale is widely accepted in the industry as proof of ownership. Yes, one could be forged as you suggest, although I've not encountered that problem (thankfully!). I do start ringing around to check if there are questions to try and verify ownership - easier when the previous Bill of Sale was through another brokerage as they are normally prepared to vouch for the transaction. Where it was a private sale done on a handshake or something scribbled on a bit of paper it can be trickier unless the vendor can be tracked down. Also I have had a copy of a previous Bill of Sale certified by the broker of the previous sale as a true copy, which obviously helps.

 

As I wrote in an earlier post, mortgage companies will often proceed in the absence of a full history (which is the case with most older boats) but place all the onus on the buyer by requiring them to sign a waiver. So the phrase, "caveat emptor", very much applies.

 

Rather as a survey produces a report on the vessel's condition, my service is to give a report on the state of ownership history, and then ensure proper paperwork is drawn up and executed if the buyer still wishes to proceed.

 

Somehow I suspect that chocolate orange fell short the amount where the liability for tax kicks in!

Edited March 5, 2008 by Dominic M

[Chris Pink]

Somehow I suspect that chocolate orange fell short the amount where the liability for tax kicks in!

 

Fabergé, old bean, Fabergé.

[Dominic M]

Fabergé, old bean, Fabergé.

Naturellement, biensur.

[Shamu1]

Just to keep everyone updated as to situation spoken to the builder today who told me it was fairly new requirement told him what you lot had said and that it came into existance in 1998 boat built 2000 he has agreed to put the CIN on the transom and somwhere hidden. I have agreed to pay for the compulsory safety work to be done by us. The boat is booked to be drydocked where she will have her bottom grit blasted and blacked (something I could do with) we are hoping to sail her in two weeks time when she will be ours hooray. Hope to meet up with some of you for beer, wine spirits well anything to celebrate us becoming Water Tramps

[Dominic M]

Just to keep everyone updated as to situation spoken to the builder today who told me it was fairly new requirement told him what you lot had said and that it came into existance in 1998 boat built 2000 he has agreed to put the CIN on the transom and somwhere hidden. I have agreed to pay for the compulsory safety work to be done by us. The boat is booked to be drydocked where she will have her bottom grit blasted and blacked (something I could do with) we are hoping to sail her in two weeks time when she will be ours hooray. Hope to meet up with some of you for beer, wine spirits well anything to celebrate us becoming Water Tramps

Make sure you get the builder to issue a Builder's Certificate showing that the boat (and recording its CIN - the name is irrelevant as it can be changed) has been fully paid for. It's a valuable document that is frequently overlooked. Also a proper invoice itemising any VAT that has been paid to the builder.

 

Dominic

Edited March 5, 2008 by Dominic M

[marcus]

no he built it for the owner

 

I dont understand.

 

Did the seller have it built and take delivery of a complete craft or did he buy it as a complete craft?...or niether?

[Mick_B]

Snip>>

Hope to meet up with some of you for beer, wine spirits well anything to celebrate us becoming Water Tramps

Does this include L*g*r....??

[Shamu1]

Does this include L*g*r....??

good new just got e-mail from the builder the CIN now on the transom woopee looking forward to taking her over on 16 17 of this month bottle tin of paint to paint out previous owner details and the journey begins. As most people who have answered this boat is rather special as it specially adapted for a disabled person to drive so we cannot lose her he is so excited as he can drive a 62ft boat. see albulm as not worked out how to add link lol

Does this include L*g*r....??

of course do not like the stuff though

[Phil Speight]

You should find some real advice from putting Recreational craft Directive into google.

 

I see that the towpath experts are telling you things without asking you any questions......very telling !

I think Gary at Ledgard Bridge Boatbuilders is rather more than "a towpath expert" wouldn`t you?

Phil

Edited March 5, 2008 by Phil Speight

[Yoda]

Just to keep everyone updated as to situation spoken to the builder today who told me it was fairly new requirement told him what you lot had said and that it came into existance in 1998 boat built 2000 he has agreed to put the CIN on the transom and somwhere hidden. I have agreed to pay for the compulsory safety work to be done by us. The boat is booked to be drydocked where she will have her bottom grit blasted and blacked (something I could do with) we are hoping to sail her in two weeks time when she will be ours hooray. Hope to meet up with some of you for beer, wine spirits well anything to celebrate us becoming Water Tramps

 

Napton at Easter w/e come and enjoy the Easter Banter.

[Broughton 2]

There you go! It's a specific type of back end.

 

Round sterned nbs don't have them.

 

 

Thanks Carl for the photo.

 

So, on a narrowboat, just where is this "transom" upon which we are supposed to stamp the CIN number? It might help buyers and other curious types to know just where to look.

 

Alan

[Broughton 2]

Thanks Carl for the photo.

 

So, on a narrowboat, just where is this "transom" upon which we are supposed to stamp the CIN number? It might help buyers and other curious types to know just where to look.

 

Alan

 

 

OK, forget it. I apologise for not paying attention! Looking back to post 16 I now see the CIN on a boat without transom (NB) shall be within 300mm of the stern and that's where we must look.

 

Alan

[Shamu1]

I thought the pic was good CIN needs to be marked on the stern and somewhere hidden by the builder at time of build

Napton at Easter w/e come and enjoy the Easter Banter.

napton may be a bit far this time as boat getting dry docked begin april but we will be passing that way eventually