Horse Boating Rope?

[magnetman]

I have read that when two horse drawn narrowboats passed each other the outer boat dropped their towline under the other boat, or the unladen boat dropped their rope if the other had a load. What type and diameter of rope was used?

[carlt]

I don't know about iron boats, with all their rivetty, sticky out bits but I wouldn't fancy passing a rope under a wooden boat without the horse getting wet.

 

Some of the things it's said they did seem totally impractical.

[magnetman]

Does seem a bit dodgy, i had assumed prior to reading about this practice, that the rope would either be passed over the boat closer to the towpath or it would be unhitched and thrown back over the luby but thats more agro than sinking the rope under the boat, if it is naturally sinking rope.Does seem a bit dodgy, i had assumed prior to reading about this practice, that the rope would either be passed over the boat closer to the towpath or it would be unhitched and thrown back over the luby but thats more agro than sinking the rope under the boat, if it is naturally sinking rope.

[Supermalc]

I can see how this might work actually.

 

I'm assuming the ropes are made of hemp, and quite thick, so they sink, don't they?

 

Now I've not seen horse drawn barges (sorry Carl, it's what they are known as by landlubbers) but I suspect the rope used by the horse is quite long, so as the boats aproach each other, one of the boats will stop the horse, with the boat on the non-towpath side opposite the horse. The rope will then sit on the bottom, allowing the other horse to step over the rope and the boat to pass over it.

 

Obviously the horse that has stopped will be on the outside of the towpath, with the moving horse on the canalside.

[magnetman]

Maybe they fitted weights to the towing rope to help sink it when they were travelling in such a way that they were liable to give way to boats coming in the other direction. Maybe not. I goggled (oo) Hemp rope and it seems its either organic or for parrot perches.Maybe they fitted weights to the towing rope to help sink it when they were travelling in such a way that they were liable to give way to boats coming in the other direction. Maybe not. I goggled (oo) Hemp rope and it seems its either organic or for parrot perches.

[Christine]

I thought horse drawn boats used cotton rope, with a bit of spring in it, so that there was a bit of take up when the horse started towing.

 

See what Canal Junction says about the matter.

[carlt]

I thought horse drawn boats used cotton rope, with a bit of spring in it, so that there was a bit of take up when the horse started towing.

 

See what Canal Junction says about the matter.

Yes I think the 'flicking over' method, which is what happens when you're bow-hauling the butty, is more reliant on skill, rather than relying on the rope sinking in time, the rope not catching on the rough bits of boat chine or bottom, a passing shark not brushing past, tightening the rope or the horse not behaving impeccably.

[magnetman]

Sharks in the cut glad i've got a good cabin shaft. Thanks for the link Christine.

[Max Sinclair]

I have read that when two horse drawn narrowboats passed each other the outer boat dropped their towline under the other boat, or the unladen boat dropped their rope if the other had a load. What type and diameter of rope was used?

In the 1960's B.W. Depot were selling some old tow ropes which were 5/8th inch cotton 70 feet long.I purchased some and used one to tow Spitfire back from Chester to Ashwood Marina. It was naturally springy and shock absorbing.

One day Vesta and Spitfire were incorrectly moored to the tow path on the Walsall Canal when 'Caggy' Stephens came along with a laden coal boat and he deftly flicked the line over our boats, chimneys and all.My photograph of this is on Canal Scape BCN, Robert.

How I wish I was still boating although my new hip is a miracle so perhaps one day!

[Foxglove]

I think towing lines were usually cotton , 5/8 or bigger .I have a copy of a video called Towpath Encounter which was filmed on the Worcester and Birmingham using Gifford and iirc Northwich to demonstrate horseboating techniques . The two boats are shown passing with the outer towline being allowed to sink just as you read .

 

The possibility of the line snagging on something occurred to me also . The boatmen must have been very well practised to want to use this method considering the risk to the horse if the line had snagged !

 

The video is narrated by Tony Lewery and boatman Tom Mayo was there to see it was all done properly . Horses were provided by the Godalming Packetboat Company who I occasionally steer for . Fortunately ( or sadly ) we never encounter the problem of passing another horse-drawn boat . Going downstream we just ask boats to pass wrong side and flick the towline over moored boats .

 

Video available here http://www.iwashop.com/ecommerce/products.asp?cat=128

[magnetman]

Interesting. The rope 'burns' around locks and bridges seem to indicate a rope diameter of around 1/2" to 5/8". I would assume if you were passing the rope under a moving boat that your horse would be stationary and the rope unhitched in case of snagging. Must be a bit of a pain ita for you in the modern world if someone's got a wind genny or unusually high aerial on their boat..

[John Orentas]

An old chap with experience of these things once told me that it was true that cotton ropes were very commonly used, but only because they wore out so quickly and used ropes could be bought very cheaply from canalside mills.. They were the drive ropes used for the power take-offs.

[Foxglove]

Must watch that video again soon , memory is a little fuzzy . The horses would have to pass each other first requiring one of them to stop briefly to allow the other to step over the towline . The timing to get the towline under the boat is critical . If the horse giving way was stopped too early his boat could overtake him and the towline would come off the luby . Not a problem now but a loss of precious time back in commercial days . To detach the towline from the horse temporarily would seem a wise precaution against possible snagging but I don't recall seeing that on the video .

 

Moored boats with anything protruding above the roofline are a pita . Usually the towline can be flicked over but sometimes has to be flicked off the luby and reattached afterwards . This involves the steerer leaving the tiller , running along the top plank ( which on Iona is thankfully about 14" wide ) catching the line , popping it back on the luby and running back to the tiller . In the meantime the person driving the horse has had to coil 100ft of wet rope and then run to catch up. So yes , quite a pita . We have to do this at least twice every trip anyway because the towpath goes around rather than under the one bridge we pass in each direction . Great fun .

 

 

http://www.horseboat.org.uk/ all about the Godalming Packetboat

[magnetman]

Out of interest how quickly does cotton rope sink? Also where can it still be bought by the 3.28ft (metre) ? I'd like to use it when bowhauling in and out of locks. The Bantock I,ve just got my hands on is so pleasant to bow haul its just got to be done. Do you use cotton rope on the Godalming Packet Boat?

[Foxglove]

Sorry , don,t know the sinking rate of cotton rope . I imagine your best bet would be to ask Peter Flockhart at Tradline Fenders , Braunston if you want some . If anyone can get it he can . I did get some 3/8" for the decorative bits around the cratch from a hobby ropemaker but I lost her details .

 

We use modern polyester type white rope for our towlines for reasons of strength , easy relatively cheap replacement and light weight . 1/2" rope for the smaller horse , 5/8" for the bigger stronger one .

[Yoda]

This syncronised under boat rope trick really does need to be performed for real. The postulation on here cannot be proven unless we get out and actually do it and film it, then we will all know how the old guys managed to keep the horse out of the water.

 

Two boats, some rope, camara and helping hands, how about it?

[AMModels]

mayb the easiest thing would be to get Hobbler to ask Joe Hollingshead how to do it, or anyone who knows Joe Safe can ask him too...hes got a couple of years experience horse boating.

[Neil@CanalVoyagers]

...cannot be proven unless we get out and actually do it and film it...

 

I'm sure only 6 posts previous Tony Lewery's video example was discussed.

[AMModels]

Tonys video

 

The boatman at the botom setting the mast on the joey is Joe Safe with my uncle giving him a hand.

[Max Sinclair]

This syncronised under boat rope trick really does need to be performed for real. The postulation on here cannot be proven unless we get out and actually do it and film it, then we will all know how the old guys managed to keep the horse out of the water.

 

Two boats, some rope, camara and helping hands, how about it?

 

 

Your trial boat must have elm bottoms as a rope will slide easily under a smooth steel bottom. The elm planks would snag anything. This suggests rope sinking wasn't very practical on laden working boats. Max

[Chris Pink]

Under does seem very problematic, snagging, propellors etc. and the worst thing that could happen is a horse in the cut.

 

I heard that the unladen boat dropped its tow for a laden boat, 2 laden boats must have had some kind of upstream/downstream type of convention.

 

Flipping a rope over (wind gennies and tv aerials apart) is a relatively easy art to learn. And it's not all the length that is manipulated. Perhaps the weight of cotton was a factor because it has not very much strength at all. I had some 3/4" cotton mooring rope that you wouldn't check a boat with.

 

The most striking thing about this topic is that this is one of the fundamentals of canal boat operating and no-one knows - lost knowledge is a bit scarey.

[magnetman]

I agree with lost knowledge being scary, its the small details that particularly interest me, those techniques, tools and equipment which made the whole thing work properly and efficiently. I haven't (yet) got any 5/8 cotton rope but if it does sink quite quickly maybe it would work. Or maybe weights were used. Flicking the rope over another boat seems more tricky than using a quick sinking rope.

[Heartland]

This is a subject that perhaps deserves a revival. As the previous discussion covers such a wide span of history that passing lines over or under were plausibly possible when craft passed each other. The dexterity of flicking ropes is quite a skill to be learnt. I had seen it done by Barry at Bingley 5 rise where there is a definite technique for passing the line from lock to lock. On certain locks such as as few on the BCN there were short pieces of iron rod that were fixed to the lock wall to assist drawing loaded boats out of the lock where the rope ran over the rod.

I have been told that it was once common practice to drop the line of the offside boat to allow the boat nearest the towpath to pass over it. In the days of wooden craft, or even early iron boats such a practice was possible as the canals were dredged, and it was practical for this to happen. The lines had to be hardy as they regularly ended up in the water such as the times when the boat pace slackened  Passing lines over a boat also could be done, but the danger was in catching people or objects as it passed. Even if boat crews expected the act, such was the nature of working boats and their people, it would be unfortunate if the line caught William Perry in the face. Mr Perry worked the canals but went on to gain a reputation as a boxer, in fact he, known as the "Tipton Slasher" retained a strong punch even into old age. 

A comment from the Horse Boating Society may help to know what the current practice is. 

 

Edited August 17, 2017 by Heartland

[Peter-Bullfinch]

This was Countess  on the Montgomery a couple of  weeks ago, passing us whilst we were moored up.

[BEngo]

Many years ago I bought some cotton line from Outhwaites in Hawes, Yorkshire.  Wonderful stuff to handle but a bugger  to splice.  Gets dirty easily so is only got out for ceremonial purposes and when we want to look posh!

Outhwaites are still in business and making cotton line between 6 and 25 mm diameter if anyone feels in need.  http://www.ropemakers.com

 

N